Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #5

[Allusonz]

I think it's important to note that it was a recent piercing that had been bleeding and caused infection. From the link below I see no reason to believe that Amanda wouldn't have been bleeding as she stated she was.

infected ear piercing bleeding - Google Search

i regret to inform you that actually your numbers are not quite accurate as you did not include the baby pierings ones :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[miley]

LOL, awesome I wonder if there are any studies about what percentage of the population bleeds when their ears are infected. Perhaps the defense should look into that-- Maybe AK's low-clotting rate can be proven to be the deciding factor and it'll all be over! (Please note my possibly feeble attempt at a teensy bit of light-heartedness here)

Amanda's older roommate Laura had multiple ear piercings. Amanda loved the idea so she pierced her ears (HERSELF) the same way - 10 new holes/five in each ear. I doubt the ten pair of earrings were 14k.

 

[otto]

Some food for thought on ear piercing

I myself have a very high clotting factor, probably too high as i rarely will bleed even from a cut and if i do rarely will it even drip

My daughter on the other hand has a much lower clotting factor and her earrings continually become infected. When hers infect there are litterally drops of blood. I wont even go into cuts.

It very well could be more of a bodies ability to clot which as we know varies in every individual

Here is a picture with some of Amanda's piercings. There was some speculation, a couple of years ago, that during the struggle one of them was ripped out and bled ... that this could be why the lamp was on the floor of Meredith's bedroom ... searching for the earring. I can't be sure, but it looks like perhaps there is something different with the lowest piercing.

 

[miley]

Otto:I can't be sure, but it looks like perhaps there is something different with the lowest piercing.

The bottom is her original piercing - when she first had her ears pierced when she was young plus it's a different pair of earrings not starter earrings.

 

[otto]

Another example of Amanda's writing

 

[Allusonz]

Here is a picture with some of Amanda's piercings. There was some speculation, a couple of years ago, that during the struggle one of them was ripped out and bled ... that this could be why the lamp was on the floor of Meredith's bedroom ... searching for the earring. I can't be sure, but it looks like perhaps there is something different with the lowest piercing.

omg i am still laughing over the previous exhange sorry cant stop again lol

 

[Monzoo]

I think the whole ear piercing discussion illustrates why I find this case frustrating.

We start with a piece of evidence -- a couple of drops af Amanda's blood in her own sink. It is asserted that this MUST be linked to the murder in some way.

This is, of course despite the fact that Amanda has a perfectly innocent explanation, and it isn't all that unusual to leave DNA in your own home. You could probably find drops of my own blood in my bathroom. There is no evidence of any injury to Amanda which would cause her to bleed.

With this series of facts, the discussion centers around how it could be PROVEN that Amanda bled from her piercing -- forcing those aguing for her innocence (or non-guilt) to prove their case.

Isn't this exactly backwards? If you think it has anything to do with the murder, shouldn't you be looking for proof of a connection? If it can't be proven to be a part of the case, shouldn't it be regarded as an artifact of the crime scene -- not connected to the murder?

 

[otto]

I think the whole ear piercing discussion illustrates why I find this case frustrating.

We start with a piece of evidence -- a couple of drops af Amanda's blood in her own sink. It is asserted that this MUST be linked to the murder in some way.

This is, of course despite the fact that Amanda has a perfectly innocent explanation, and it isn't all that unusual to leave DNA in your own home. You could probably find drops of my own blood in my bathroom. There is no evidence of any injury to Amanda which would cause her to bleed.

With this series of facts, the discussion centers around how it could be PROVEN that Amanda bled from her piercing -- forcing those aguing for her innocence (or non-guilt) to prove their case.

Isn't this exactly backwards? If you think it has anything to do with the murder, shouldn't you be looking for proof of a connection? If it can't be proven to be a part of the case, shouldn't it be regarded as an artifact of the crime scene -- not connected to the murder?

True, we could look at it simply as a mixture of Amanda's and Meredith's DNA in the bathroom sink at the murder scene ... evidence of the murder, near to the blood on the floor mat; evidence that Amanda was involved in the murder. Amanda is asked whether the blood was there prior to Meredith's murder. The answer is no. At some point, in an attempt to explain her DNA, Amanda mentions that she had an infected piercing, although the piercing was not done on the night of the murder and she doesn't remember bleeding on the night of the murder. It seems to be a simple situation, but one where Amanda is introducing points that don't fit.

It reminds of Amanda's statements after walking off the job in Berlin. She said that because she had the flu for a couple of days in the week prior to starting the job, she still felt sick on the day she started working, so she left ... and she was bored ... and she didn't have anything to do ... and she wanted to have fun in Berlin ... and "ciao sucker".

There have been some attempts to argue that Rudy acted alone, but that requires that he murdered Meredith, most likely got blood on his shoes, left the room without leaving any visible bloody footprints in the hallway, went to the bathroom near the front door and did not flush, then removed his shoes, went back into the bedroom, got blood on his barefeet, walked to the bathroom at the back of the house, left a bloody footprint on the mat but none of his DNA in that bathroom, and then mopped up his footprints in the hallway. Somewhere in all of this, he went into Amanda's bedroom, did not disturb anything or leave DNA, got her lamp, plugged it into the hallway outlet, put the lamp on the floor, and locked it in Meredith's bedroom.

 

[Monzoo]

True, we could look at it simply as a mixture of Amanda's and Meredith's DNA in the bathroom sink at the murder scene ... evidence of the murder, near to the blood on the floor mat; evidence that Amanda was involved in the murder. Amanda is asked whether the blood was there prior to Meredith's murder. The answer is no. At some point, in an attempt to explain her DNA, Amanda mentions that she had an infected piercing, although the piercing was not done on the night of the murder and she doesn't remember bleeding on the night of the murder. It seems to be a simple situation, but one where Amanda is introducing points that don't fit.

This is still requiring proof of innocence, rather than proving that Amanda's blood in her own bathroom had anything to do with the murder. Looking at photos of the bathroom, there are a few spots of Meredith's blood. They are not very obvious. Amanda's DNA is in some of these spots -- which is not in any way surprising considering the girls shared the bathroom. The fact that Amanda did not notice the blood before the murder is not evidence on whether it was there or not. If I rememeber correctly, one of the spots of Amand's blood was on a q-tip box? Not exactly obvious.

It reminds of Amanda's statements after walking off the job in Berlin. She said that because she had the flu for a couple of days in the week prior to starting the job, she still felt sick on the day she started working, so she left ... and she was bored ... and she didn't have anything to do ... and she wanted to have fun in Berlin ... and "ciao sucker".

I have no idea what you are referencing here.

There have been some attempts to argue that Rudy acted alone, but that requires that he murdered Meredith, most likely got blood on his shoes, left the room without leaving any visible bloody footprints in the hallway, went to the bathroom near the front door and did not flush, then removed his shoes, went back into the bedroom, got blood on his barefeet, walked to the bathroom at the back of the house, left a bloody footprint on the mat but none of his DNA in that bathroom, and then mopped up his footprints in the hallway. Somewhere in all of this, he went into Amanda's bedroom, did not disturb anything or leave DNA, got her lamp, plugged it into the hallway outlet, put the lamp on the floor, and locked it in Meredith's bedroom.

I have no idea who made the footprint on the bathmat -- but it appears to be made of a mixture of blood and water, and there are no prints leading to or away from it. Rudy DID testify that he went in the bathroom to get towels -- do you believe he was lying, or do you think it is possible that he was in the bathroom and either left no DNA or ILE did not find his DNA in their examination?

I have seen no evidence of any cleanup -- except toweling up of blood in Meredith's bedroom. What specific evidence is there that anything was cleaned up?

 

[Malkmus]

Another example of Amanda's writing

Here's the whole thing. Also, the section you highlighted makes more sense in context, as with the majority of her statements which are constantly used out of context:

"Dear Madison (and everyone)
Missing you (a blank spot). I'm missing everyone I care
about back home. It's pretty frickin' lonely around here.
I'm definitely going to need a hug when I get back. Then
a good long talk, and some hot chocolate if you can
manage. Not going to lie - [this is the worst experience of
my life. Take that back, the night when I spent hours
trying to tell the police I was innocent while they told
me I was lying, yelled at me,] hit me [- that was the
worst experience of my life.] The second worst was when I
realized Meredith had been murdered. Which means things
have only been getting better since then, and this is the
kind of outlook I'm trying to keep on the days ??
I’m not telling you this to burn you out, but you're the
person I’d be telling this to anyway, and I'm ??
furious. It’s not like they beat me here in prison
and the food’s not bad but I really, really, don’t want to
be here. I’ve been studying to distract myself and in the
meantime feeling like an absolute coward for letting
the police confuse me. [When they threatened to throw
me in jail for 30 years for lying to them I should have
held out my arms for the cuffs and told them to have
fun condemning an innocent person (or just to **** off)
but instead I got confused and scared and I ****ed up.]
I ****ed up so bad Madison and I’m so sorry I did it
because I hurt a friend of mine and landed myself in
here. It’s been 26 days since I arrived here. The first
8 I was kept in isolation without books, TV, and they
watched me while I took my showers. Since then I’ve
?? with a crazy woman and then I have changed
?? with 3 other people, 2 of which are"

 

[Malkmus]

True, we could look at it simply as a mixture of Amanda's and Meredith's DNA in the bathroom sink at the murder scene ... evidence of the murder, near to the blood on the floor mat; evidence that Amanda was involved in the murder. Amanda is asked whether the blood was there prior to Meredith's murder. The answer is no. At some point, in an attempt to explain her DNA, Amanda mentions that she had an infected piercing, although the piercing was not done on the night of the murder and she doesn't remember bleeding on the night of the murder. It seems to be a simple situation, but one where Amanda is introducing points that don't fit.

Amanda had one small blood drop on the faucet of the sink. It's plausible that she didn't notice this drop ever, before or after the murder, as it was on the silver-colored faucet, not the bright white sink bowl where Meredith's blood was found in multiple droplets. I still haven't heard a reason as to where Amanda's blood would have come from if not her ear piercing since we know she had no injuries.

It reminds of Amanda's statements after walking off the job in Berlin. She said that because she had the flu for a couple of days in the week prior to starting the job, she still felt sick on the day she started working, so she left ... and she was bored ... and she didn't have anything to do ... and she wanted to have fun in Berlin ... and "ciao sucker".

There have been some attempts to argue that Rudy acted alone, but that requires that he murdered Meredith, most likely got blood on his shoes, left the room without leaving any visible bloody footprints in the hallway, went to the bathroom near the front door and did not flush, then removed his shoes, went back into the bedroom, got blood on his barefeet, walked to the bathroom at the back of the house, left a bloody footprint on the mat but none of his DNA in that bathroom, and then mopped up his footprints in the hallway. Somewhere in all of this, he went into Amanda's bedroom, did not disturb anything or leave DNA, got her lamp, plugged it into the hallway outlet, put the lamp on the floor, and locked it in Meredith's bedroom.

Rudy was likely on the toilet when Meredith unexpectedly came home. He didn't flush so not to make noise and probably rushed to the front door which he found couldn't be opened without a key. He went into Meredith's room, surprising her, and the attack happened. During the attack he stepped in Meredith's blood with his shoe, leaving the prints found in there. Sound plausible so far?
At that point he probably noticed he was covered in blood, pants and shoes. So he takes his shoe off while in the bedroom, at some point pressing the bloody knife against the bed to steady himself, leaving the bloody imprint which does not match the knife found at Raffaele's apartment.
He goes in to the bathroom, rinses his shoe and pant leg in the sink. Puts his wet foot down on the mat which leaves the bathmat print. Then puts his shoe back on, which he hasn't thoroughly cleaned because he's in a rush to get the heck out of there. But he remember that he has to have the key to unlock the front door (and for anyone who doesn't know: Yes, you had to have a key just to get out of the house. The door was always locked or it would swing open). SO he goes back into Meredith's room, goes through her purse where he again leaves his DNA. He takes her keys, credit cards, cash, and phones. He leaves her room, locking the door behind him to delay discovery of the body, walks down the hall (leaving his faint bloody shoeprints in the hallway), unlocks the front door and runs like a bat out of hell. In his diary he wrote that at that moment escaping the cottage his pants were wet.

 

[Malkmus]

Somewhere in all of this, he went into Amanda's bedroom, did not disturb anything or leave DNA, got her lamp, plugged it into the hallway outlet, put the lamp on the floor, and locked it in Meredith's bedroom.

I don't believe the lamp had any part in the murder, and I believe it was already in the room when Meredith was attacked. Meredith only had her bedside lamp as a light source at night. It's likely that at some point she borrowed the lamp to use as her desk lamp to do homework with. Amanda was constantly sleeping over at Raffaele's, so Meredith probably knew she wouldn't be around to miss it.
Also, the problem with the "Amanda was looking for an earring on the floor" scenario is A) had an earring been torn out we'd know. He ear literally would have been torn. B)There was already the lamp by the bed which, if Amanda was looking for something she would have just grabbed that one and used it to sweep the floor or under the bed with. C) The location where her lamp was found is consistent with it having first been on or near the desk and then pushed from there to in front of the bed by the force of the door being swung open.

 

[Malkmus]

Rudy DID testify that he went in the bathroom to get towels -- do you believe he was lying, or do you think it is possible that he was in the bathroom and either left no DNA or ILE did not find his DNA in their examination?

The "no DNA from Rudy" in the bathroom is a nonstarter anyway. Those who want to think the print is Raffaele's ignore the fact that none of his DNA was found in the bathroom either.

 

[Malkmus]

Close that can, man

Seriously, though, I can't quickly find any journal articles/studies regarding the most common creative writing topics for young women, in university classes, as aspiring writers, whatever. So, yeah, we can chalk this particular vein of discussion up to disagreement. That is, until one one of us tracks down that one relevant study from ten years ago in Denmark :innocent: j/k

Well, actually the reason I think I got us off track is because Amanda's story was never written as part of a class assignment. IIRC, it was just something she wrote as a blog. If that makes a difference.

 

[trillian]

There have been some attempts to argue that Rudy acted alone, but that requires that he murdered Meredith, most likely got blood on his shoes, left the room without leaving any visible bloody footprints in the hallway, went to the bathroom near the front door and did not flush, then removed his shoes, went back into the bedroom, got blood on his barefeet, walked to the bathroom at the back of the house, left a bloody footprint on the mat but none of his DNA in that bathroom, and then mopped up his footprints in the hallway. Somewhere in all of this, he went into Amanda's bedroom, did not disturb anything or leave DNA, got her lamp, plugged it into the hallway outlet, put the lamp on the floor, and locked it in Meredith's bedroom.

Rudy is using the toilet when Meredith comes home. He doesnt flush as to not alert her to his presence. He attacks her. He leaves the room quickly. There is no blood on the bottom of his shoes. He goes to the bathroom to clean up. He takes a bloody piece of clothing off and steps on it. He takes the bloody towels he is using with him to dispose. He tries to get out of the house but needs a key. He goes back into the room. She is still alive. He sexually assaults her. He asphyxiates her, covers her so he doesnt have to look at the body as he looks for keys. He leaves the towels on the floor. (Perhaps he even attemps to stop the blood from spreading further in the room, not sure). He rifles through the purse and makes his escape, leaving the trail of footprints out the door.

Is this not plausible and in accordance with the evidence?

ETA: The lamp is irrelevent. There is nothing to suggest it was moved there at the time of the crime. Amanda had not needed a light in her room for several days.

 

[trillian]

I should add that the above post is not the only possibility for Rudy doing this crime by himself. There are many many more scenarios. For instance, I did not account for his drinking orange juice as this could have happened at any time. I also do not know how much time he spent there before returning to the bedroom. I also dont know if he entered her room more than 2 times(but definitely at least 2). And for the record, I think he was in that cottage for a decent amount of time, at least an hour.

Question for the people who think all three were guilty:
In your scenario of the crime, when does Rudy go to the toilet and not flush?

 

[otto]

I should add that the above post is not the only possibility for Rudy doing this crime by himself. There are many many more scenarios. For instance, I did not account for his drinking orange juice as this could have happened at any time. I also do not know how much time he spent there before returning to the bedroom. I also dont know if he entered her room more than 2 times(but definitely at least 2). And for the record, I think he was in that cottage for a decent amount of time, at least an hour.

Question for the people who think all three were guilty:
In your scenario of the crime, when does Rudy go to the toilet and not flush?

According to Rudy, he was in Meredith's room when the kabab he ate didn't sit well, then he went to the bathroom. This is not a cooked up scenario, but a confession from Rudy. Rudy admits he was there, that he was not alone, that he was there when Meredith was murdered, and that he fled after the murder.

 

[otto]

Well, actually the reason I think I got us off track is because Amanda's story was never written as part of a class assignment. IIRC, it was just something she wrote as a blog. If that makes a difference.

Amanda's rape story was her response to a writing assignment for her creative writing course. Her story about watching someone die was a prison writing competition submission.

 

[Malkmus]

Amanda's rape story was her response to a writing assignment for her creative writing course. Her story about watching someone die was a prison writing competition submission.

Thanks for the correction. I wonder what the assignment was and how the story ever came to light.

BTW, the prison story was written by someone named Marie Pace and was only speculated to be Amanda, and the prison never confirmed whether it was Amanda when asked by the newspaper. That speculation was based on Marie being Amanda's middle name which sounds like a stretch if you ask me.

 

[Malkmus]

According to Rudy, he was in Meredith's room when the kabab he ate didn't sit well, then he went to the bathroom. This is not a cooked up scenario, but a confession from Rudy. Rudy admits he was there, that he was not alone, that he was there when Meredith was murdered, and that he fled after the murder.

That's rudy's version of what happened on his "date" with Meredith and doesn't really address how he he left the toilet unflushed if he was involved in a four way plot to have sex with her, or what scared him off the toilet. According to his version which you're going by he had nothing to do with what went on in that bedroom. Is that what you believe? What is the scenario you believe happened that night which addresses all the evidence?