Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #5

[otto]

Why did anyone lock the door?

How has RS refused to "back up" AK's story other than admitting he can't know for sure where she was all night (something no sleeping person could know for sure)?

How can "Meredith's friends" be compared to murder suspects? There is no similarity in how they are treated by LE.

That is a good question ... why was Meredith's bedroom door locked? Meredith was mortally wounded and was not going anywhere. Her phones were taken away presumably to prevent her from calling for help ... although that was also not likely to happen even if she had her phones - as her throat was cut. I suppose the door was locked to delay the discovery of her body. Would that matter to Rudy? Would it matter to Amanda? Who would benefit more from ensuring that Meredith was not discovered at the moment that someone arrived at the cottage?

Meredith was last seen by a friend after having dinner ... isn't the last person seen with the victim often the first person on the suspect list? Look at Joran v.d.S. He was last seen with the victim, and the first suspect. Meredith's friends obviously had to be cleared as suspects, and they were ... so of course they were treated the same way as other witnesses, like Filomina, her boyfriend, Amanda, Raffaele and others that were present when Meredith was discovered.

 

[otto]

Isn't it more likely RG was simply pleasing the prosecutor who allowed the reduction in sentence? (If so, it doesn't prove AK's innocence, but neither does it prove her guilt.)

The prosecutor had no say in the reduction of the sentence. In Italy, opting to fast track the trial automatically results in a 1/3 reduction of sentence ... by law, not by prosecutorial discretion. Implicating Amanda and Raffaele did not make any difference in Rudy's sentence.

 

[Nova]

I don't think there's any question that you believe it's spiteful.

However, other opinions may, and do, differ....

That's fair, flourish. It may just be that Italian law on the subject and the radical reduction in sentence given for "an apology" is difficult for me to accept. That it is correct Italian law doesn't mean I have to think it's reasonable. (For the record, I think the U.S. has plenty of unreasonable laws as well.)

26 years for a murder where the prosecutor was unable to prove premeditation or even direct involvement is rather high by any reasonable standard. If we think about it, we know damn well AK didn't rape MK. There's also no evidence for the prosecutor's conjecture of "sex games gone wrong" or retaliation for a demotion at work or any other motive. There's no actual evidence that AK was in the room when MK was killed. So, yeah, 26 years seems rather spiteful, even if it is allowed under Italian law.

And I don't think there's any question that "Team Knox" embarrassed the prosecutor in the international press. Even if you justify the 26 years, the current push for a life sentence is obviously spiteful for a defendant who, at worst, opened the door to the wrong man.

Rudy was simply pleasing the prosecutor? Yeah, I don't think so.

Why not? It's hardly uncommon for inmates to say whatever a prosecutor wants them to say in hopes of getting some improvement in treatment as a result. We all of us tend to want to please those with power over us.

 

[Nova]

That is a good question ... why was Meredith's bedroom door locked? Meredith was mortally wounded and was not going anywhere. Her phones were taken away presumably to prevent her from calling for help ... although that was also not likely to happen even if she had her phones - as her throat was cut. I suppose the door was locked to delay the discovery of her body. Would that matter to Rudy? Would it matter to Amanda? Who would benefit more from ensuring that Meredith was not discovered at the moment that someone arrived at the cottage?

Meredith was last seen by a friend after having dinner ... isn't the last person seen with the victim often the first person on the suspect list? Look at Joran v.d.S. He was last seen with the victim, and the first suspect. Meredith's friends obviously had to be cleared as suspects, and they were ... so of course they were treated the same way as other witnesses, like Filomina, her boyfriend, Amanda, Raffaele and others that were present when Meredith was discovered.

I have never heard it suggested that the other flatmates or the boys downstairs were ever treated as serious suspects. If you can point me to evidence that says otherwise, I'll go look it up.

As for the locked door, do we know how it locked? If it was a door that locked automatically, there's no issue here.

Assuming it wasn't, locking the door may be an action in keeping with covering the body: a show of remorse, respect for the dead, regret, however you explain it.

If the door was locked to delay discovery of the body, that might be beneficial to any of RG, RS or AK.

 

[otto]

That's fair, flourish. It may just be that Italian law on the subject and the radical reduction in sentence given for "an apology" is difficult for me to accept. That it is correct Italian law doesn't mean I have to think it's reasonable. (For the record, I think the U.S. has plenty of unreasonable laws as well.)

26 years for a murder where the prosecutor was unable to prove premeditation or even direct involvement is rather high by any reasonable standard. If we think about it, we know damn well AK didn't rape MK. There's also no evidence for the prosecutor's conjecture of "sex games gone wrong" or retaliation for a demotion at work or any other motive. There's no actual evidence that AK was in the room when MK was killed. So, yeah, 26 years seems rather spiteful, even if it is allowed under Italian law.

And I don't think there's any question that "Team Knox" embarrassed the prosecutor in the international press. Even if you justify the 26 years, the current push for a life sentence is obviously spiteful for a defendant who, at worst, opened the door to the wrong man.

Why not? It's hardly uncommon for inmates to say whatever a prosecutor wants them to say in hopes of getting some improvement in treatment as a result. We all of us tend to want to please those with power over us.

The reduction in sentence had nothing to do with any apology.

The appeal court had reduced Guede's sentence to 24 years and cut one-third off as is custom when defendants opt for a fast-track trial, said Francesco Maresca, a lawyer representing Kercher's family, who argued for the original sentence to be left unchanged.

"Twenty-four years would be in line with the sentences given to Knox and Sollecito," he said. "They each got an extra year for simulating a burglary at the scene and Knox got a further year for falsely blaming a local barman for the murder."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/22/rudy-guede-sentence-kercher-murder

 

[Nova]

The prosecutor had no say in the reduction of the sentence. In Italy, opting to fast track the trial automatically results in a 1/3 reduction of sentence ... by law, not by prosecutorial discretion. Implicating Amanda and Raffaele did not make any difference in Rudy's sentence.

Got it, thanks.

My understanding is that RG did not testify in either AK's or RS' trial. Is that right?

But he did deny their involvement in a discussion with his friend that was taped (I think while RG was on the lam), no?

So all we are talking about is why he didn't exonerate two people who were at best casual acquaintances of his?

I repeat: doing so might have antagonized LE (even if it didn't affect his sentence) and RG simply wasn't feeling that generous. Nothing so mysterious there.

 

[otto]

I have never heard it suggested that the other flatmates or the boys downstairs were ever treated as serious suspects. If you can point me to evidence that says otherwise, I'll go look it up.

As for the locked door, do we know how it locked? If it was a door that locked automatically, there's no issue here.

Assuming it wasn't, locking the door may be an action in keeping with covering the body: a show of remorse, respect for the dead, regret, however you explain it.

If the door was locked to delay discovery of the body, that might be beneficial to any of RG, RS or AK.

The discussion we've had about breaking down Meredith's bedroom door relates to the fact that her bedroom door was locked. How do we know it was locked ... that is what the postal police and all the witnesses at the cottage, on the morning Meredith was found, testified. It had to be locked with a key, and Meredith's keys were missing.

The students that occupied the downstairs of the cottage were all away on the weekend that Meredith was murdered. They were never suspects. Meredith's friends, Amanda, Raffaele and all others present when Meredith was found were witnesses.

 

[Nova]

The reduction in sentence had nothing to do with any apology.

The appeal court had reduced Guede's sentence to 24 years and cut one-third off as is custom when defendants opt for a fast-track trial, said Francesco Maresca, a lawyer representing Kercher's family, who argued for the original sentence to be left unchanged.

"Twenty-four years would be in line with the sentences given to Knox and Sollecito," he said. "They each got an extra year for simulating a burglary at the scene and Knox got a further year for falsely blaming a local barman for the murder."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/22/rudy-guede-sentence-kercher-murder

I thought I had read that RG also got a reduction for "showing regret to the victim's family" or something similar. If that isn't the case, otto, I appreciate the correction.

But we're still talking about RG starting with the same base sentence as RS and AK, despite the overwhelming evidence against the former and the paucity of evidence against the latter. Again, that may be correct and customary Italian law; anyone is entitled to find it unreasonable.

What do you understand to be the prosecutor's basis for asking for life for AK?

 

[otto]

Got it, thanks.

My understanding is that RG did not testify in either AK's or RS' trial. Is that right?

But he did deny their involvement in a discussion with his friend that was taped (I think while RG was on the lam), no?

So all we are talking about is why he didn't exonerate two people who were at best casual acquaintances of his?

I repeat: doing so might have antagonized LE (even if it didn't affect his sentence) and RG simply wasn't feeling that generous. Nothing so mysterious there.

Rudy was convicted of murder. Rudy was called to testify in the trial of AK and RS, but asserted his right to remain silent ... his trial and appeal were ongoing at the same time, so testifying could have been a problem for him, but I don't know.

What does Rudy have to gain by remaining silent regarding the involvement of RS and AK in the murder?

 

[otto]

I thought I had read that RG also got a reduction for "showing regret to the victim's family" or something similar. If that isn't the case, otto, I appreciate the correction.

But we're still talking about RG starting with the same base sentence as RS and AK, despite the overwhelming evidence against the former and the paucity of evidence against the latter. Again, that may be correct and customary Italian law; anyone is entitled to find it unreasonable.

What do you understand to be the prosecutor's basis for asking for life for AK?

There's no reduction of sentence for apologizing for not seeking help as Meredith lay dying ... which is all that Rudy admitted.

Investigators and police believe they have overwhelming evidence connecting Amanda and Raffaele to the murder, similar to Rudy.

My understanding of the basis for the two prosecutors asking for life sentences for Amanda and Raffaele is the overwhelming evidence implicating them.

 

[Nova]

The discussion we've had about breaking down Meredith's bedroom door relates to the fact that her bedroom door was locked. How do we know it was locked ... that is what the postal police and all the witnesses at the cottage, on the morning Meredith was found, testified. It had to be locked with a key, and Meredith's keys were missing.

The students that occupied the downstairs of the cottage were all away on the weekend that Meredith was murdered. They were never suspects. Meredith's friends, Amanda, Raffaele and all others present when Meredith was found were witnesses.

I only asked "how it locked". I'm wasn't questioning whether it was locked. (I'm sure it seems my mind is a sieve and that's probably true, but on occasion, I do remember the testimony. :loser Got it now: it locked with a key that was missing the following morning.

I know the other residents downstairs were away and therefore were not suspects. That was my point to a poster who said they behaved differently than AK did: of course they did; they weren't under the same pressure. As for the other two flatmates, weren't they also away for the night and didn't they also have alibis?

 

[otto]

I only asked "how it locked". I'm wasn't questioning whether it was locked. (I'm sure it seems my mind is a sieve and that's probably true, but on occasion, I do remember the testimony. :loser Got it now: it locked with a key that was missing the following morning.

I know the other residents downstairs were away and therefore were not suspects. That was my point to a poster who said they behaved differently than AK did: of course they did; they weren't under the same pressure. As for the other two flatmates, weren't they also away for the night and didn't they also have alibis?

Meredith's friends were treated in the same way as Amanda, Raffaele and the others that were present when Meredith was found. Meredith's friends, one in particular, were the last to admit seeing Meredith before she was murdered. They became witnesses, as did all of the people that were in the cottage when Meredith's door was broken down. Amanda and Raffaele were witnesses, but on Nov 5, their status was changed to that of suspect and they were detained.

 

[otto]

This is Meredith's bedroom door

 

[trillian]

Looks like a skeleton key that locks from the outside.

I wonder if those keys were found and only had RG's prints on them if people would finally come around or if the story would change again that he stayed for the alleged "staging" of the body and the break in.

RG's print was on the handle right?? With blood? Or was it just blood and no discernable print?

 

[flourish]

"In their post-verdict report the judges said this was a murder for purely casual reasons, and if that is the case then this is a crime that calls for the maximum penalty of life," Mignini was quoted as saying.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/90962119.html

The Italian prosecutors who sent American college student Amanda Knox to prison for 26 years filed an appeal of the case today, asking the court for a tougher sentence....The prosecution did not specify the sentence it wants imposed on Knox, but by arguing that the court should have considered an aggravating circumstance in handing out Knox's punishment, a life sentence would be almost automatic.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/AmandaKnox/amanda-knox-prosecutors-now-life-sentence/story?id=10385603

 

[Nova]

Rudy was convicted of murder. Rudy was called to testify in the trial of AK and RS, but asserted his right to remain silent ... his trial and appeal were ongoing at the same time, so testifying could have been a problem for him, but I don't know.

What does Rudy have to gain by remaining silent regarding the involvement of RS and AK in the murder?

It could be anything, otto: better food, better cell, other privileges, better protection against other inmates, promise for help in reducing the sentence (or merely easing the time served) in the future, etc.

The fact is LE "owns" RG for the next decade and a half. Unless he is hopelessly retarded, he has ever reason to keep his mouth shut and avoid pissing off the prosecutor.

Look at all the extra charges filed against AK! And she never left the jurisdiction. Who knows what all RG might find himself charged with if he crossed Mignini?

(BTW, the same is true of convicts in the U.S. I'm not claiming Italian LE is particular corrupt. It's simply part of the game that convicts are almost always looking for whatever advantages they can gain from prosecutors, wardens, guards, etc. This has been true is nearly every case I've ever read about.)

 

[Nova]

There's no reduction of sentence for apologizing for not seeking help as Meredith lay dying ... which is all that Rudy admitted.

Investigators and police believe they have overwhelming evidence connecting Amanda and Raffaele to the murder, similar to Rudy.

My understanding of the basis for the two prosecutors asking for life sentences for Amanda and Raffaele is the overwhelming evidence implicating them.

BBM: Okay, now Italy is just trying to look like a backwater, third-world, banana republic. If what you say is true, then let's hear no more complaints about how outsiders are being unfair to Italy.

There's simply no way there is "overwhelming evidence" in a case where the prosecutor can't even pick a motive or prove the central details of his theory of the crime. And there's simply no way there is "overwhelming evidence" relative to RG, whose DNA was found INSIDE the victim!

 

[Nova]

Meredith's friends were treated in the same way as Amanda, Raffaele and the others that were present when Meredith was found. Meredith's friends, one in particular, were the last to admit seeing Meredith before she was murdered. They became witnesses, as did all of the people that were in the cottage when Meredith's door was broken down. Amanda and Raffaele were witnesses, but on Nov 5, their status was changed to that of suspect and they were detained.

BBM: What is the evidence for this claim?

Of the group, how many were being interrogated in a second language?

 

[Nova]

This is Meredith's bedroom door

Are you 100% sure that isn't the type of lock that locks automatically when the door closes? (It would still require a key to open again.) I'm not a lock expert, but it appears it could be that type of door lock to me.

I am double-checking because if it is an auto-lock door, then there's no need to discuss further why it was locked.

 

[Nova]

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/90962119.html



http://abcnews.go.com/2020/AmandaKnox/amanda-knox-prosecutors-now-life-sentence/story?id=10385603

From your link, the "aggravating circumstance" is the lack of motive. Of course, "lack of motive" merely means the prosecutor failed to prove a motive. So in essence, defendants get extra time because the prosecutor is incompetent.

Oh, yeah, the Italian justice system is lookin' good about now!