Meredith Kercher murdered in Perugia, Amanda Knox convicted #3

[Steely Dan]

The conviction of Amanda Knox relied on forensic evidence that is fatally flawed in many respects. The investigation fall well short of the standards you would expect in such a case primarily because the police, under intense media pressure locally, were too quick to state what they thought had happened, effectively starting out with the conclusion they felt required to reach and making the "evidence" fit the desired outcome. The best place to see why the defense contest the forensics is www.friendsofamanda.org . I am 100% convinced that this is an unsafe conviction that should not stand, and as such I am urging all with an interest in justice to consider the failings of the evidence and support a new petition site in support of Amanda's appeal at www.freeamandaknox.com .

I can understand why the police & prosecutors acted as they did. Once they were committed to their version of events, it would have been highly embarrassing for them to back down and admit they were wrong but that is no reason to destroy the life of an innocent girl unlucky enough to be a perfect scapegoat caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. We really must make it clear that although being understanding of their reasons, the Italian authorities must make good their error and overturn this unjust conviction by adding our support to the petition. It will do far more harm to the reputation of the Italian justice system to continue with this folly and refuse to accept the reality that the evidence presented does not prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Accepting the mistake and correcting it however will be of great credit to Italy and restore faith in their system as being just and fair for all.

I've been to the "Amanda is innocent" site before. I remember reading somebody saying that a defense witness testified that it would be possible to throw a rock from the balcony into Filomena's room and he had worked out a whole computer simulation to prove it and so this person was saying that it waspossible the rock came from the outside in.

However, what they neglected to mention is that upon cross examination the guy admitted that his simulation had the position of the shutters wrong and that had they been placed as they were that night it would be impossible for the rock to come from the balcony.

Amanda did not have a fleeting moment of forgetfulness. Instead she, a supposedly inexperienced drug user, forgot the entire evening. Short term memory loss is a long term abuse thing, not a European vacation of drug abuse. Raffaele's father refuted Amanda's claims that they ate at 11 PM because he spoke with Raffaele between 8 and 9 when they were eating. The luggage girl confirmed this account of the events of the evening. Raffaele's father phones repeatedly throughout the night at the most inopportune times.

Which statement do you think should not be included in the decisions, keeping in mind that everything Amanda said during questioning as a witness was excluded from trial?

By the way, the obvious proof that Amanda was there was her confession. People have turned themselves into pretzels to justify Amanda's actions and statements, but still she was convicted and sentenced to 26 years in prison. I don't think that this is a complete mistake. One would have to excuse a mountain of evidence to conclude that Amanda was innocent ... a bit like ignoring the big picture, and trying to dissect each piece of evidence, hoping that one by one it could be discarded before anyone saw the big picture.

This links a translation of the judges ruling. http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C343/

 

[flourish]

As per the innocence project

While it can be hard to understand why someone would falsely confess to a crime, psychological research has provided some answers – and DNA exonerations have proven that the problem is more widespread than many people think. In approximately 25% of the wrongful convictions overturned with DNA evidence, defendants made false confessions, admissions or statements to law enforcement officials

As per this link

http://www.innocenceproject.org/fix/False-Confessions.php?phpMyAdmin=52c4ab7ea46t7da4197

Okay, those are some statistics from the innocence project website. Is there any citation to indicate which study/experts/institute those statistics were gleaned from? Otherwise, the only thing this tells me is that the innocence project, whose agenda is clear, says that 25% of the wrongful.....

 

[flourish]

Either the worst lie ever by a guilty suspect or a classic example of coerced, false testimony under pressure. (The pressure of being a suspect, not necessarily because someone was looming over her at that moment.)

"I don't even remember being there, but you insist you have proof I was. In addition, I hear my boyfriend is telling you that my memory of being with him all night is false. So everyone around me is telling me my memory is wrong, so maybe the truth is really something else. "

otto says pot doesn't cause blackouts and he may be right. But not being as upstanding a citizen as otto, I can say from personal experience that pot plus alcohol can produce fleeting impressions such as Knox describes here.

That doesn't mean she is innocent. But IMHO using this statement as proof of guilt (which the trial judge says he did not) is to ignore the context in which it was created.

For what it's worth, Knox very clearly backs away from the Lumumba accusation several times in this writing before eventually reiterating it. Knox shouldn't have mentioned him in the first place, but if Italian LE kept him in jail for two weeks on the basis of statements like these, then Italian LE very much shares the blame for Lumumba's mistreatment.

RBBM

I'm sorry, I don't know all the details as well as everyone else...were they drinking as well as smoking weed? How much did they drink? What did they drink? How much pot did they smoke?

For the record, it is my opinion that the "pot black-out" defense thing is just absurd.

It is also my opinion that AK is completely at fault for Lumumba's jail stay, not the Italian LE.

 

[dgfred]

RBBM

I'm sorry, I don't know all the details as well as everyone else...were they drinking as well as smoking weed? How much did they drink? What did they drink? How much pot did they smoke?

For the record, it is my opinion that the "pot black-out" defense thing is just absurd.

It is also my opinion that AK is completely at fault for Lumumba's jail stay, not the Italian LE.

In a piece AK wrote, she describes the participants drinking 'Hard A'... I have no idea really what that is or what it would do to you.

For the record... me too. Interesting both declared they wouldn't smoke anymore... so I'm thinking a whole lot of smoking, or something added too it :waitasec: .

Me too about Patrick... she could have cleared up his (no) part very quickly.

 

[flourish]

In a piece AK wrote, she describes the participants drinking 'Hard A'... I have no idea really what that is or what it would do to you.

For the record... me too. Interesting both declared they wouldn't smoke anymore... so I'm thinking a whole lot of smoking, or something added too it :waitasec: .

Me too about Patrick... she could have cleared up his (no) part very quickly.

So AK wrote that people were drinking hard alcohol? Where did she write this? Was she referring to that night?

 

[dgfred]

So AK wrote that people were drinking hard alcohol? Where did she write this? Was she referring to that night?

Supposidly just a 'story' she wrote in jail. Look up Marie Pace... I think that the name used. Seems to me to be strangely similar to what happened that night... but just ambiguous enough.

 

[Allusonz]

Obviously, I don't have a pay stub in front of me. But paying for stories has become standard practice for tabloids and producing such stories is Mr. Kercher's profession.

Of course, it's possible he refused payment out of principle, but he's an idiot if he did. As I've said repeatedly, the article is not something *I* imagine I'd write, but I'm not in his shoes. And since he did write it, if he was paid for it (as I'm sure he was), good for him. He, like his daughter, is one of the victims here; there's no reason he shouldn't make a living. (And it's not as if he wrote something disrespectful of his dead daughter; quite the contrary.)

Did not make myself totally clear sometimes my brain works faster than my typing

ITA there just seems to be consistent timing with events around this case whether it is additional charges etc

 

[Allusonz]

Okay, those are some statistics from the innocence project website. Is there any citation to indicate which study/experts/institute those statistics were gleaned from? Otherwise, the only thing this tells me is that the innocence project, whose agenda is clear, says that 25% of the wrongful.....

I am sure if you contact them they would provide you with what ever additional information you wish

 

[flourish]

I am sure if you contact them they would provide you with what ever additional information you wish

They probably would. However, that isn't the point I was making. Statistics and facts are given more weight (at least for me) when the source of the statistics are provided.

 

[flourish]

Supposidly just a 'story' she wrote in jail. Look up Marie Pace... I think that the name used. Seems to me to be strangely similar to what happened that night... but just ambiguous enough.

Okay I'm finding English translations of a short story. I see references to smoke. and "piercings," but no alcohol. However, I also find the story generally hard to follow, so please guide me Are the piercings supposed to be like, body piercing? BDSM activity? Drug injections? Stabbings?

 

[Nova]

False confessions, IIRC, usually come from those with low IQ's looking for a way to get out of an uncomfortable situation. Amanda isn't stupid. I believe she thinks she's able to outsmart the police, which on some level is stupid but her IQ isn't low....

It's true that the younger the suspect or the lower the i.q., the more apt a statement produced under pressure is false. But the phenomenon is by no means restricted to those groups. Obviously, MK isn't stupid, but she was alone in a foreign country functioning often in a second language.

IIRC, in America if you and I rob a convenience store and you shoot and kill the clerk I'm guilty of murder too. They may have some sort of similar law.

It's usually called "felony murder" in the U.S., meaning someone was killed while you were in the process of committing a felony. At the beginning of the court's report (linked by otto above) there is a discussion of Italian concepts in which one becomes an "accomplice" (not the word in Italian) because an act is considered to be ongoing even after one has left the vicinity and ceased the activity.

Not exactly our notion of "felony murder", but it shares some characteristics.

To me, "violent sex play" or whatever the prosecutor calls his theory sounds a lot like "satanic panic" and "child molestation ring" and other such wild claims that eventually turned out to be mere fictions created to make sense of difficult-to-explain forensics in order to fit a foregone conclusion of guilt.

Okay, RS had a knife collection. I never shared the fascination, but a lot of teenaged and young men have them without slaughtering co-eds. And despite the fancy collection, we're supposed to believe he or AK brought along a kitchen knife with which they or RG stabbed MK.

 

[Nova]

Did not make myself totally clear sometimes my brain works faster than my typing

ITA there just seems to be consistent timing with events around this case whether it is additional charges etc

Understood. I have that same typing/brain condition!

My original point was merely that just because a principal in a case acts differently than we think we would doesn't mean he or she is guilty.

I never meant to criticize Mr. Kirchner, who is obviously a grieving father.

 

[Nova]

Amanda did not have a fleeting moment of forgetfulness. Instead she, a supposedly inexperienced drug user, forgot the entire evening. Short term memory loss is a long term abuse thing, not a European vacation of drug abuse. Raffaele's father refuted Amanda's claims that they ate at 11 PM because he spoke with Raffaele between 8 and 9 when they were eating. The luggage girl confirmed this account of the events of the evening. Raffaele's father phones repeatedly throughout the night at the most inopportune times.

Which statement do you think should not be included in the decisions, keeping in mind that everything Amanda said during questioning as a witness was excluded from trial?

By the way, the obvious proof that Amanda was there was her confession. People have turned themselves into pretzels to justify Amanda's actions and statements, but still she was convicted and sentenced to 26 years in prison. I don't think that this is a complete mistake. One would have to excuse a mountain of evidence to conclude that Amanda was innocent ... a bit like ignoring the big picture, and trying to dissect each piece of evidence, hoping that one by one it could be discarded before anyone saw the big picture.

Yeah, yeah, I get that she was convicted. But if we're going to assume every conviction is correct, we may as well shut down Websleuths.

You bring up an interesting point about RS' father's call between 8 and 9. The court report uses this to conclude that AK lied about when she and RS ate, because RS told his father he was washing dishes and found a leaky pipe.

The way it's worded, it appears the court assumed that dishes can only be washed immediately after dinner and therefore dinner was consumed before 8:30. But at my house (and we're not nearly as sloppy as some of these kids), dishes are sometimes washed immediately before or even during cooking. So in theory, RS could have been washing the lunch dishes when his father called; then RS and AK made dinner and washed more dishes later that night.

Is the judge just summarizing the content of the phone call carelessly (i.e., did RS' father say his son claimed to be washing up after dinner) or is the judge simply leaping to the conclusion that puts the defendants in the worst light? I don't know. Do you?

***

As for AK's statement, I've only recently reviewed the one you linked for me. It is so vague and jumbled, I don't know what to make of it, whether it is admitted or not. It makes few affirmative claims and qualifies every claim with words to the effect AK isn't sure any of the statement is true.

 

[Nova]

Here's a good site for evidence. The one thing that bugs me about this site is it claimed, last I checked over a year ago, that the knife was hidden in a shoe box in RS's closet. This was brought up on NG by a woman discussing the case. I couldn't find anything about it on the internet, other than at that site, and I emailed her to find out where that report came from and never heard back from her. The email address was good, nothing kicked back to me. There is a picture of the knife in an evidence box that I think was used as the basis for that report. A conclusion jump, IMO.

I would like to know exactly where the knife was found. Obviously its discovery at RS' apartment was terribly convenient for the prosecution.

 

[Nova]

Amanda did not have a fleeting moment of forgetfulness....

Just for the record, otto, I never said she did.

What I referred to were the "fleeting impressions" she recounts of what she does remember. She describes them as disconnected images, too ethereal to be deemed real or dream.

I have had similar impressions after drinking too much and smoking pot. (To be fair and clear, I'd had a LOT to drink on those occasions. I'm not talking a glass of wine with dinner.)

 

[Nova]

So the defense, parents, or ANYONE can not contact him or look themselves??? :snooty: So far the court has refused to believe him in any way.

There is NO WAY to read AK's email, her 'statements' about Patrick and look at her behavior after he was arrested without seeing she was trying to deflect the investigation with lies and misinformation IMO. She did not claim she was hit, she did not claim to be exausted/tricked/hungry... she just lied.

Are you saying she didn't make those claims in the infamous email?

Because she does claim to have been hit and exhausted in her Nov. 6 written statement.

 

[Nova]

Okay, those are some statistics from the innocence project website. Is there any citation to indicate which study/experts/institute those statistics were gleaned from? Otherwise, the only thing this tells me is that the innocence project, whose agenda is clear, says that 25% of the wrongful.....

So you want what, prosecutors and judges to say they convict a lot of people based on false statements?

The "agenda" of the Innocence Project may be clear, but to my knowledge, the credibility of the organization is not in question.

 

[flourish]

So you want what, prosecutors and judges to say they convict a lot of people based on false statements?

The "agenda" of the Innocence Project may be clear, but to my knowledge, the credibility of the organization is not in question.

No, I want people or organizations to cite their references! Like, "according to a study conducted at _____ by _____, 25% of ___________, etc."

Statistics can be misrepresented. It is important to see the source.

If the stats came from studies done by the innocence project, that means something different to me than an independent study that the innocence project is referring to.

 

[Nova]

RBBM

I'm sorry, I don't know all the details as well as everyone else...were they drinking as well as smoking weed? How much did they drink? What did they drink? How much pot did they smoke?

For the record, it is my opinion that the "pot black-out" defense thing is just absurd.

It is also my opinion that AK is completely at fault for Lumumba's jail stay, not the Italian LE.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I have trouble believing anyone can read the Nov. 6 statement (see otto's link above) and say they would imprison a man for two weeks based on those statements. AK does not claim to have seen PL kill MK. She merely says she has a vague memory of seeing him at the basketball courts and in front of her house the night before. And then she says she's not sure those memories are real.

I'm not excusing AK for bringing up PL's name in the first place. But if you believe testimony from a witness who questions her own recollection and merely places a person in the general vicinity of crime are enough to put a man in jail, then I hope you never have the power to do so.

***

I don't know how much they had to drink that night and I never claimed to believe AK "blacked out". I was merely reporting that I have had the sort of fleeting image memory she reports after consumption of pot and alcohol. FWIW, I wouldn't have wanted anyone locked up on the basis of such memories.

 

[dgfred]

Okay I'm finding English translations of a short story. I see references to smoke. and "piercings," but no alcohol. However, I also find the story generally hard to follow, so please guide me Are the piercings supposed to be like, body piercing? BDSM activity? Drug injections? Stabbings?

I've thought maybe heroin for the 'piercings'... but I also thought that Hard-A and drinking was mentioned too. :waitasec: