Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #1

[pinkpuddytat]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. I see a big difference between a gun and an assault rifle - especially one that she feels the need to obtain from Mexico. In her pictures she isn't exactly at a shooting range practicing her hobby, she is in front of a barn and other buildings.

No problem with anyone owning guns here on my end but I will pass on having her for a neighbor!

I've only read the paraphrases, so don't know the exact wording of what she posted, but from the paraphrases, it isn't clear that the gun was to come from Mexico. If she was offering to break it in for him until he got back, that suggests the gun was going to be bought here, because if he bought it there and transported it here, he'd already "be back" when the gun arrived.

"Assault rifle" is kind of a meaningless term -- you can use any rifle (or any gun) for an "assault" and many rifle models that are commonly used for hunting were originally designed for military use, and so could technically be deemed "assault rifles".

The reference to wanting an AK-47 for her "next gun" may have been sort of generic gun-freedom talk. This model had been specifically included in a gun-banning law that "sunset" in 2004. The sunsetting generated a wave of "let's buy 'em before they outlaw 'em again" sentiment (since previously owned guns were grandfathered under the law, and presumably would be again if a similar law came into being). It was a silly law that gunowners loved to ridicule for its provisions banning bayonet lugs and folding stocks (both standard on AK-47s), since those features obviously played no role in the gun crime problem that was used as the political ammunition (pun intended) to push the law through.

What's most notable about the postings IMO is the poor judgement demonstrated by putting them on a publicly accessible Facebook account. And you would think DH and TH would probably have been interacting with her via Facebook and aware of these postings. I know that if anybody posted anything anywhere on the internet suggesting that I was going to be buying them and/or loaning them a specific model of rifle, I'd make sure the posting got taken down fast. It's basically a public invitation to criminals to come steal guns from your home.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

I've been reading and following this whole story and this thread. Interesting points are being brought up about the guns and POSSIBLE drug running. Only problem I'm seeing with the drug running is they were on jet skis - kinda hard to carry anything on one of those - so I don't really think the "running" part fits. If they were gonna "run" anything they would have most certainly taken a boat.

Now the guns are a different story. Yes, if they knew they were crossing the border it would have been a wise thought to take a gun - but again - kinda hard to pack a gun on a jet ski - not impossible but a little difficult. Only hand guns would be feasible.

Neither here nor there about all that. WHERE IS THE JET SKI? Obviously one of the boats would have had to tie it up and tow it behind to get it away. From what I saw in that article about the traffic stop - those were fairly big jet skis (as opposed to the little ones I also see around here).

I'm hopin Geraldo has more on tonight about this. It is definitely a very strange incident and an international one at that.

I do hope they find David so he can be properly laid to rest.

 

[Salem]

Anything linked to on the facebook needs to have some connection to the case. It is not important how she likes her coffee. It is important if there is any truth to illegal gun purchases. If you bring something over that does not appear to be case related, I'm going to remove it. If you think I might have any doubt about the connection to the case and you don't want it removed, you need to spell it out for me.

TIA,

Salem

 

[WellDone]

I read her Facebook.

So she collects guns. Big deal.

So she shoots guns. Big deal.

She's also pro-life, likes healthy food, hiking, Harley's and is not a fan of Obama.

Where is the crime in any of that?

Actually, she would fit right in the smallest county in Texas that I call home.

I would be glad to have her for a friend and especially a neighbor.

BBM

You read my mind!

Especially here & now..... it's hunting season!

 

[darnudes]

Could be. I've sort of been leaning toward the idea that they were involved in drug-running, and a deal went bad. In that scenario, she wouldn't have been planning for him to get shot/killed, and she'd be genuinely upset that he did, but she definitely wouldn't be wanting to tell the whole truth about what happened to him.

They'd have been crazy not to own guns, both when they lived in Mexico and while living in southern Texas and liking to spend time roaming around by themselves, even if they weren't involved in anything illegal. And guns (other than full-autos) don't need to be "registered" in the US, except in a few miserable states. Definitely not in Texas.

Somebody who's still alive wouldn't want it known that they'd carried a gun across the border from the US to Mexico, because Mexico likes to bring criminal charges in order to make political hay about guns from the US being the cause of the epidemic of violence there (doesn't make much sense, since life is a lot more peaceful in the alleged source of all these guns, but politicians generally don't make much sense). But if he's really dead, and a gun *he* was carrying was involved in a shoot-out that killed him, there really wouldn't be any legal risk to TH in sharing that information with investigators, and obviously none to DH. And with no witnesses, it's not like anybody could prove she had carried a gun across the border anyway.

Did I read this right, you don't have to register your gun in Texas? So you can just go out and buy a gun and fill out no paperwork to register that with LE? Yowzer!

I don't get drug running from David and Tiffany. Them seem like a lovely young couple, he had a good job, had worked in different parts of the world and they seem successful. I can't buy this it all.

I'm thinking they would have been crazy NOT to take a gun with them when they went to see the church. I'm personally against guns but they aren't and they live in a State where it is perfectly natural by some standards to own them.

 

[darnudes]

I've been reading and following this whole story and this thread. Interesting points are being brought up about the guns and POSSIBLE drug running. Only problem I'm seeing with the drug running is they were on jet skis - kinda hard to carry anything on one of those - so I don't really think the "running" part fits. If they were gonna "run" anything they would have most certainly taken a boat.

Now the guns are a different story. Yes, if they knew they were crossing the border it would have been a wise thought to take a gun - but again - kinda hard to pack a gun on a jet ski - not impossible but a little difficult. Only hand guns would be feasible.

Neither here nor there about all that. WHERE IS THE JET SKI? Obviously one of the boats would have had to tie it up and tow it behind to get it away. From what I saw in that article about the traffic stop - those were fairly big jet skis (as opposed to the little ones I also see around here).

I'm hopin Geraldo has more on tonight about this. It is definitely a very strange incident and an international one at that.

I do hope they find David so he can be properly laid to rest.

Tiffany stated on one of her interviews David's jet ski had some sort of cubicle used for storing items and hence why she did not have the camera. Tiffany said that it was in this cubicle on his jet ski. I don't know how big these cubicles are but I'm sure you could fit a few things in there.

 

[TxLady2]

Why exactly are we sleuthing the sister-in-law? Not being snarky, because I haven't kept up with this case much, only what I've seen on t.v. and just skimmed through most of the thread up until the last couple pages. So, I am curious, what is the deal with the S.I.L.?
FWIW, I find Tiffany to be very credible and normal and I believe her! Never saw her sister speak, but it appears David's family is behind her 100%

 

[darnudes]

Anything linked to on the facebook needs to have some connection to the case. It is not important how she likes her coffee. It is important if there is any truth to illegal gun purchases. If you bring something over that does not appear to be case related, I'm going to remove it. If you think I might have any doubt about the connection to the case and you don't want it removed, you need to spell it out for me.

TIA,

Salem

Crikey, you're getting a work out today Salem!

No more facebook postings from me on TY - that's all that was there that was relevant anyway.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

I've been reading and following this whole story and this thread. Interesting points are being brought up about the guns and POSSIBLE drug running. Only problem I'm seeing with the drug running is they were on jet skis - kinda hard to carry anything on one of those - so I don't really think the "running" part fits. If they were gonna "run" anything they would have most certainly taken a boat.

There are different levels of drug running, and plenty of "mules" who simply carry the drugs on (or in!) their persons as they fly on commercial airliners. Assuming something like cocaine or heroin, with high dollar value per ounce, two people on two jet-skis could very easily carry six figures worth.

Now the guns are a different story. Yes, if they knew they were crossing the border it would have been a wise thought to take a gun - but again - kinda hard to pack a gun on a jet ski - not impossible but a little difficult. Only hand guns would be feasible.

I have a gun that I carry in the pocket of my running shorts when I go running at night. Tiny and weighs practically nothing but still a .32 caliber. They could easily have been packing fairly powerful handguns (e.g. 9mm at least) right on their bodies. Carrying guns while jet-skiing is a cinch -- it's firing them from a jet-ski, and hitting anything in the ballpark of what you aimed at, that's the big challenge. And the improbable luck of scoring a bullseye on the back of your jet-ski-riding target's head while firing from a speeding boat (and then being unable to so much as graze the witness' body *or* jet-ski), is a big part of why many of us have trouble believing TH's version of events.

Neither here nor there about all that. WHERE IS THE JET SKI? Obviously one of the boats would have had to tie it up and tow it behind to get it away. From what I saw in that article about the traffic stop - those were fairly big jet skis (as opposed to the little ones I also see around here).

That part doesn't puzzle me too much. I gather there was quite a delay between the shooting (at least if it happened the way TH says it did) and any attempt to search the area where it occurred. In the meantime, any number of petty thieves would have been happy to help themselves to an unattended jet-ski. My understanding is that the alleged shooting took place pretty near this old church, which is located in a sort of inlet on the edge of the lake. If so, the jet-ski wouldn't likely have been floating around out in the main body of the lake, where someone taking it could easily be seen.

 

[TxLady2]

I don't think rifles have to be registerd, but handguns do. I'll have to ask my son, he would know.

 

[laytonian]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. I see a big difference between a gun and an assault rifle - especially one that she feels the need to obtain from Mexico. In her pictures she isn't exactly at a shooting range practicing her hobby, she is in front of a barn and other buildings.

No problem with anyone owning guns here on my end but I will pass on having her for a neighbor!

Same here. I'm already surrounded by those types.

But it makes little sense to obtain a gun from Mexico, since most are made here in the US and smuggled over the border to Mexico, in exchange for drugs.

 

[darnudes]

Why exactly are we sleuthing the sister-in-law? Not being snarky, because I haven't kept up with this case much, only what I've seen on t.v. and just skimmed through most of the thread up until the last couple pages. So, I am curious, what is the deal with the S.I.L.?
FWIW, I find Tiffany to be very credible and normal and I believe her! Never saw her sister speak, but it appears David's family is behind her 100%

We're not - There was some discussion about posting some comments she made on her facebook page, Salem has kindly allowed those relevant comments to be posted here. Other than the comments she made about guns and David Hartley there is nothing of further concern on her facebook.

 

[laytonian]

There are different levels of drug running, and plenty of "mules" who simply carry the drugs on (or in!) their persons as they fly on commercial airliners. Assuming something like cocaine or heroin, with high dollar value per ounce, two people on two jet-skis could very easily carry six figures worth.

There's also the person who, knowing they are moving far from the border, sees an opportunity to take some drugs to that new area - where they'd bring more money.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Why exactly are we sleuthing the sister-in-law? Not being snarky, because I haven't kept up with this case much, only what I've seen on t.v. and just skimmed through most of the thread up until the last couple pages. So, I am curious, what is the deal with the S.I.L.?
FWIW, I find Tiffany to be very credible and normal and I believe her! Never saw her sister speak, but it appears David's family is behind her 100%

The SIL has been publicly involved in a meeting with Mexican consular officials about the case and also in a demonstration outside the Mexican consulate intended to garner media attention, so she's made herself fair game, with name and photo already out in the MSM by her own choice. Her posting on Facebook a few months back about getting hold of a high-powered rifle via her now-missing/dead BIL looks relevant to me. May well turn out to be nothing, but it's an odd sort of thing to be posting so publicly about, and could conceivably turn out to be a significant piece of the puzzle.

 

[darnudes]

There are different levels of drug running, and plenty of "mules" who simply carry the drugs on (or in!) their persons as they fly on commercial airliners. Assuming something like cocaine or heroin, with high dollar value per ounce, two people on two jet-skis could very easily carry six figures worth.



I have a gun that I carry in the pocket of my running shorts when I go running at night. Tiny and weighs practically nothing but still a .32 caliber. They could easily have been packing fairly powerful handguns (e.g. 9mm at least) right on their bodies. Carrying guns while jet-skiing is a cinch -- it's firing them from a jet-ski, and hitting anything in the ballpark of what you aimed at, that's the big challenge. And the improbable luck of scoring a bullseye on the back of your jet-ski-riding target's head while firing from a speeding boat (and then being unable to so much as graze the witness' body *or* jet-ski), is a big part of why many of us have trouble believing TH's version of events.



That part doesn't puzzle me too much. I gather there was quite a delay between the shooting (at least if it happened the way TH says it did) and any attempt to search the area where it occurred. In the meantime, any number of petty thieves would have been happy to help themselves to an unattended jet-ski. My understanding is that the alleged shooting took place pretty near this old church, which is located in a sort of inlet on the edge of the lake. If so, the jet-ski wouldn't likely have been floating around out in the main body of the lake, where someone taking it could easily be seen.

According to TY on facebook, David had a 228 (whatever that is) she was holding one in a photo and she told one of her friends it was David's when asked about it.

Do you know what a 228 would be?

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Cocaine is packaged in "bricks". I've seen them anywhere from 10-12 inches in width and 6-8 inches in length with a depth of 4 - 5 inches. Those are little ones, they are usually packaged in much bigger bricks. Herion is a different story and yes, mules will swallow packages of herion to smuggle through on airlines. However, a herion mule (swallower) will not likely carry "six figures" in their belly. They usually use 3 - 5 mules to get it in.

For them to carry bricks of coke or even herion in those cubicles in the jet skis - not going to hold an amount that would make it "worth it" to risk an international run.

As for the guns - I agree. It wouldn't be hard to carry one on a jet ski, albeit it would have to be smaller in size (not necessarily caliber). Definitely would be very very difficult to shoot. You would have to stop the jet ski - or slow it down to almost idle. Jet skis take both hands to control properly and even taking one hand off and trying to aim and shoot a gun would be very very hard.

Tiffany said 3 boats and the witness who watched her come in only saw one - so the other two could have stayed back and done the "clean-up". One boat getting David and the other taking care of the jet ski. Heck, even one guy could have jumped in the water and onto the jet ski and rode it off. It still had to be taken to the shore somewhere and gotten out of the water - not that easy to do if you don't have a trailer to put it on and from the looks of all this - it was a somewhat desolate place where any type of activity like that would have left trace evidence: ie drag marks, tire marks, whatever.

I'm just not going with this drug running story. It doesn't fit.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

I don't think rifles have to be registerd, but handguns do. I'll have to ask my son, he would know.

Nope. http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/TXSL.pdf

QUICK REFERENCE CHART

Rifles and
Shotguns Handguns​

Permit to Purchase -------No----------No
Registration of Firearms --No----------No
Licensing of Owners -----No----------No
Permit to Carry ----------No----------Yes

 

[darnudes]

What does fit is some sort of "O.K. Corral" gun fight thatTiffany may be attempting to hide as they were in Mexico illegally. Maybe she thinks she would have been in trouble if she told the whole truth.

If you go with this scenario then everything makes sense or can be explained. Any other theory leaves too many unanswered questions.

 

[Salem]

Has anyone attempted to do a time line of events here? I understand there was a video of DH & TH on the way to the lake. Do we have a time on that and the time the 911 call was made?

It would be interesting to see how long they were out on the lake.

Salem

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Yea darnudes - but not necessarily an OK Corral. I think they were sightseeing the church and a "patrol" of one of the gangs (or even cartels) saw them. Patrol was probably very young thugs and David might have pulled the gun so the thugs saw it and than it was on. They got close enough to David to hit him in the head and Tiffany took off. While they tried to chase her down - not many boats can compete with a jet ski (unless you're running a cigarette, or go-fast) so she got away.

Thugs then realize they "screwed up" and "da bosses" ain't gonna be too happy so they quickly clean it all up and "go away".

I just hope they can get to the bottom of this and find him.