GUILTY MI - Carnel Chamberlain, 4, Mount Pleasant, 21 June 2012 #2

[PMLsmom]

So... it takes a lot longer than a few hours to burn a body. Then there is burial time, cleanup time.

Did Anthony have that kind of time or was Carnel killed the day before maybe? Eyewitness saw him on a trampoline, but maybe just maybe they were mistaken and he was out there the day before that?

Wondering.

I posted this on the last thread, given that a huge argument was heard on the day before...ITA, I think he died Weds. and was disposed of Thurs. and then reported missing. Obviously "mom" was willing to cover stuff up. JMO

ETA - I don't believe a word she says about when Carnel was seen by her...JMO

 

[katydid23]

I posted this on the last thread, given that a huge argument was heard on the day before...ITA, I think he died Weds. and was disposed of Thurs. and then reported missing. Obviously "mom" was willing to cover stuff up. JMO

If so, we have to examine first the witnesses who say that Carnel was playing outside Thursday afternoon. I wonder if they were specific and accurate with the time. Maybe it was before mom left for work?

And I wonder if it was just the kids who said they saw him. Because they could be mistaken in terms of what day or time it really was.

 

[mmmagique]

Did Jaimee ever show up anywhere, or is she still missing?

 

[ToosieJoie33]

If so, we have to examine first the witnesses who say that Carnel was playing outside Thursday afternoon. I wonder if they were specific and accurate with the time. Maybe it was before mom left for work?

And I wonder if it was just the kids who said they saw him. Because they could be mistaken in terms of what day or time it really was.

I remember reading someplace that the constructions workers did not see Carnel at all on Thursday. They had seen him everyday they had been working. They thought that was odd especially after the fight they heard on Wednesday. SORRY I DON'T HAVE THE LINK

 

[ToosieJoie33]

Did Jaimee ever show up anywhere, or is she still missing?

This was posted an hour ago -- she wasn't hiding. IMO, I don't believe the sister.

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2012/07/jaimee_chamberlain_is_not_runn.html

 

[lonetraveler]

Lots of bodies are burnt and left in cars, or parks. Bodies can be burnt badly enough to not make identification easily. In order to fully cremate a body, the fire needs to be much hotter than anything most perps in a hurry could do. This entire thing happened in 4.75 hours most, the hours mom was at work. That's a pretty short time frame considering...

They'll get DNA from Carnels bones or teeth if necessary, or both.

Agree, but we aren't talking about an Einstein here. He was stupid enough to put the body under the porch of the house so he was most likely stupid enough to think that he could burn the body up in a couple of hours. I do believe that Carnel was dead before his mother left for work. How long before she left for work? I don't know but I think that there was more time involved than her work shift.

 

[lonetraveler]

This was posted an hour ago -- she wasn't hiding. IMO, I don't believe the sister.

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2012/07/jaimee_chamberlain_is_not_runn.html

I can see where she would be afraid that someone will retaliate against her for the death of Carnel. I'm sure that there are many, myself included, who hold her accountable for not protecting her son.

 

[EllaMae]

Drugs do cause apathy in long time users,but no amount of drugs could cause a mother to ignore the obvious abuse in front of her eyes.
Certain situations aren't even acceptable to those seeing through a haze of drugs
Some went from the mother being a victim and no one is allowed to say otherwise,but we should instead blame every other family member even though the mother rarely had contact with her son.
Who was in the best position to see and hear what was going on in the home?

I'll answer....the mother of the child.

IMO

BBM....


I have to step in here and respectfully say that this totally incorrect. I cannot let this statement go without addressing it because it is on a public forum, and I'd like to educate people who have this misconception.
Addiction to any substance will cause a parent to not only neglect a child, but also leads to abuse by the parent, and by others. An addict in need of his or her drug of choice will do anything to get it....including selling a child for use as a sex partner. Go read the Shaniya Davis case. There are many other stories like hers, and it is something that keeps me awake at night...
Drug addiction causes actual chemical changes in a person's brain,some of which can be permanent, and emotions and feelings are stunted. The maternal and paternal instincts can be blunted to the point of being non-existent. Children who are left in the custody of drug users, abusers and addicts are in extreme danger. I cannot stress this enough. There are literally hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children who are suffering right now. We just don't hear about all of these cases.

I worked for many years in a medical practice that addressed addiction, among other psychiatric issues. The DR was an addiction specialist, and about half of the practice was devoted to addiction. I have seen and heard some awful stories....

No parent who uses drugs at any level should have custody of a child. That may sound harsh...but it is based on what I know.

 

[scapa]

I can see where she would be afraid that someone will retaliate against her for the death of Carnel. I'm sure that there are many, myself included, who hold her accountable for not protecting her son.

Quick question for those who (quite understandably) feel as LT does in the post quoted above. In the article linked upthread JC's sister notes that Carnel's bio father is in jail for DV, having abused (perhaps very seriously) JC. AB seems to have stepped right into this vacant abuser's role, with devastating consequences for Carnel.

So here's the question: does JC's prior history of abuse have any bearing on her role in Carnel's abuse and death? Does it show a pattern of becoming entangled in abusive relationships (so predisposing her to subsequent abusive situations)? Is it confirmatory or mitigating? None of the above?

I'm really interested in your responses here, partly because I wonder whether, had she been on record as having tried and failed to protect Carnel from AB, JC would still be viewed as culpable in his death (I know not that everyone here thinks she is blameworthy in this situation).

thanks,

s

 

[Woodland]

Imo, the issue is failure to protect a child. Making excuses, no matter how valid they might be (drug addiction, assumes abuse to be love/normal etc) seems fruitless at stopping the behavior. No consequences for one seems to give others a pass to behave in an indifferent manner to their child(ren).

If a parent has custody of a child and is addicted to drugs and or violent men, who then is responsible for that child's safety and well being? Who is responsible to get the child out of harms way?

 

[kimlynn]

BBM....


I have to step in here and respectfully say that this totally incorrect. I cannot let this statement go without addressing it because it is on a public forum, and I'd like to educate people who have this misconception.
Addiction to any substance will cause a parent to not only neglect a child, but also leads to abuse by the parent, and by others. An addict in need of his or her drug of choice will do anything to get it....including selling a child for use as a sex partner. Go read the Shaniya Davis case. There are many other stories like hers, and it is something that keeps me awake at night...
Drug addiction causes actual chemical changes in a person's brain,some of which can be permanent, and emotions and feelings are stunted. The maternal and paternal instincts can be blunted to the point of being non-existent. Children who are left in the custody of drug users, abusers and addicts are in extreme danger. I cannot stress this enough. There are literally hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children who are suffering right now. We just don't hear about all of these cases.

I worked for many years in a medical practice that addressed addiction, among other psychiatric issues. The DR was an addiction specialist, and about half of the practice was devoted to addiction. I have seen and heard some awful stories....

No parent who uses drugs at any level should have custody of a child. That may sound harsh...but it is based on what I know.

I appreciate your post and your opinion on the issue of parents and their usage of drugs.I am in no way advocating that it is okay to use drugs while children are in the home,but it does indeed happen more than we may know.
I did follow the SD case on another forum.In that case I believe we are dealing with a mother that was on the extreme end and did have an addiction.
Not everyone that uses is an addict.
It really depends on what drug is used.Weed isn't classified as an addictive drug...at least not the last time I read up on it,which was,I'll admit several yrs ago.
I agree that over time any drug may cause a blunting of emotions and or cause apathy,but I think you must have a fault in your character or personality to begin with in order for that to take place to such an extent that you would allow any harm to come to another.Drug usage or not.
In this case we have a mother,who by her own admission watched her son being mistreated.
You can place the blame on drugs,but I look at it more in terms of lack of caring in general on her part.That too is very common,sadly.

IMO

 

[Cubby]

I posted this on the last thread, given that a huge argument was heard on the day before...ITA, I think he died Weds. and was disposed of Thurs. and then reported missing. Obviously "mom" was willing to cover stuff up. JMO

ETA - I don't believe a word she says about when Carnel was seen by her...JMO

The neighbors saw Carnel playing outside on Thursday. So we have an independent time last seen by someone other than mom and AB indicating Carnel was in fact alive Thursday afternoon.

Carnel Chamberlain's neighbors saw him jumping on a trampoline in his backyard Thursday afternoon.

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2012/06/neighbors_searched_until_4_am.html

 

[southernnana]

Drugs do cause apathy in long time users,but no amount of drugs could cause a mother to ignore the obvious abuse in front of her eyes. IMO

As a recovering alcoholic myself, we'll have to agree to disagree. An addict will toss ALL caution aside, even the risk of their own loved ones for their drug of choice. Alcohol, pot, etc.

We may well have to agree to disagree on the subject of drugs.I stand by my post,but will post my belief on users of drugs.
Not everyone who partakes is an addict. <snippd>
As mentioned in my earlier posts,drugs do cause apathy in long term users,but not to the extent that a loved one could overlook a child being beaten. IMO

BBM....I have to step in here and respectfully say that this is totally incorrect. I cannot let this statement go without addressing it because it is on a public forum, and I'd like to educate people who have this misconception.

Addiction to any substance will cause a parent to not only neglect a child, but also leads to abuse by the parent, and by others. An addict in need of his or her drug of choice will do anything to get it ... <snipped>

I worked for many years in a medical practice that addressed addiction, among other psychiatric issues. The DR was an addiction specialist, and about half of the practice was devoted to addiction. I have seen and heard some awful stories.... No parent who uses drugs at any level should have custody of a child. That may sound harsh...but it is based on what I know.

<all quotes have been snipped and BBM by me>


I speak from personal experience ... my life as a 10-11 year old, with two younger siblings and an alcoholic mother ... father left us. If drugs were involved, I was too young to know. State welfare people were in and out but never removed any of us because we had an elderly grandmother in the household ... we were all neglected, but I was the only one emotionally and physically abused.

A wonderful family took me in and provided for me so that I could finish high school. Whenever I visited my two sibling, I left emotionally upset for days. I moved on to a better life .... but a better life did not really ever happen for my two siblings. I cannot talk about this without crying.

Yes ... an addict in need of their drug of choice will ignore their children in distress and will do anything to obtain their drug of choice.

:frown:

 

[mahoolin]

Can you give us a link or tell us where you are reading?

Here's link from another post about AB's past

http://www.themorningsun.com/articl...refresh=no&webredirect=&stopvalue=&stopparam=

 

[laniefi]

So... it takes a lot longer than a few hours to burn a body. Then there is burial time, cleanup time.

Did Anthony have that kind of time or was Carnel killed the day before maybe? Eyewitness saw him on a trampoline, but maybe just maybe they were mistaken and he was out there the day before that?

Wondering.

Or it was preplanned/premeditated. No evidence of this of course, only wild speculation on my part at this point.

I do wonder though...

 

[Woodland]

This line is from the article on neighbors providing a timeline for when Carnel was last seen alive, jumping on the trampoline in the backyard on Thursday afternoon -

'Bambi and Stephen Scarlott and their two daughters, Karma, 6, and Kaileygh, 5, live next door. Their daughters would talk with the boy over the fence and saw him in his backyard Thursday afternoon. '

Not sure if that line means the 5 and 6 year-old are saying they saw Carnel on Thursday afternoon, or if one or more of the adults saw him as well on that Thursday.

 

[Cubby]

This line is from the article on neighbors providing a timeline for when Carnel was last seen alive, jumping on the trampoline in the backyard on Thursday afternoon -

'Bambi and Stephen Scarlott and their two daughters, Karma, 6, and Kaileygh, 5, live next door. Their daughters would talk with the boy over the fence and saw him in his backyard Thursday afternoon. '

Not sure if that line means the 5 and 6 year-old are saying they saw Carnel on Thursday afternoon, or if one or more of the adults saw him as well on that Thursday.

I would hope that the 5 and 6 yr old were being supervised by an adult who too saw Carnel Thursday, but I agree the article isn't clear specifying exactly which of the neighbor and if the neighbor was an adult.

 

[Knox]

BBM....


I have to step in here and respectfully say that this totally incorrect. I cannot let this statement go without addressing it because it is on a public forum, and I'd like to educate people who have this misconception.
Addiction to any substance will cause a parent to not only neglect a child, but also leads to abuse by the parent, and by others. An addict in need of his or her drug of choice will do anything to get it....including selling a child for use as a sex partner. Go read the Shaniya Davis case. There are many other stories like hers, and it is something that keeps me awake at night...
Drug addiction causes actual chemical changes in a person's brain,some of which can be permanent, and emotions and feelings are stunted. The maternal and paternal instincts can be blunted to the point of being non-existent. Children who are left in the custody of drug users, abusers and addicts are in extreme danger. I cannot stress this enough. There are literally hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children who are suffering right now. We just don't hear about all of these cases.

I worked for many years in a medical practice that addressed addiction, among other psychiatric issues. The DR was an addiction specialist, and about half of the practice was devoted to addiction. I have seen and heard some awful stories....

No parent who uses drugs at any level should have custody of a child. That may sound harsh...but it is based on what I know.

Thank you EllaMae, great post.

Houseful for the 4th, caught up now.

Read the article which describes AB's childhood and history. I gotta say, while it's impossible to comprehend what he did to Carnel or have compassion for him as an adult in these circumstances ... Sounds like he had a horrible childhood and I wonder if his incubator was using drugs or alcohol while pregnant with him? Struck again by the vicious cycle created by the lack of love and nurturing in children's lives.

We are waiting for our second grandchild to be born, she is due any day now. Our whole family is so excited, so eager to see and hold her. So it's hard to think/know as EllaMae states; there are hundreds of thousands of children in jeopardy right this minute.

 

[Jacie Estes]

I'm just going to throw this out there....do you think there is any chance whatsoever that the remains found under the house isn't Carnel's?

I ask for a couple of reasons. The first, there was a mention of a green/dark van in front of the house the 1st night. Second, I read somewhere that AB had burned animals in that stove. Lastly, the attorney said they couldn't really identify the remains as human since it was so badly burned.

I have thought the same thing. The delay in IDing the remains and subsequently charging AB are unusual. Also the time frame to do everything else and hten bury under a deck in open view doesn't fit. I had read about the green van and wondered if it had been determined who owned it and why it was there. It may also explain why AB was so calm while police were there, he knew they wouldn't find anything.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Quick question for those who (quite understandably) feel as LT does in the post quoted above. In the article linked upthread JC's sister notes that Carnel's bio father is in jail for DV, having abused (perhaps very seriously) JC. AB seems to have stepped right into this vacant abuser's role, with devastating consequences for Carnel.

So here's the question: does JC's prior history of abuse have any bearing on her role in Carnel's abuse and death? Does it show a pattern of becoming entangled in abusive relationships (so predisposing her to subsequent abusive situations)? Is it confirmatory or mitigating? None of the above?

I'm really interested in your responses here, partly because I wonder whether, had she been on record as having tried and failed to protect Carnel from AB, JC would still be viewed as culpable in his death (I know not that everyone here thinks she is blameworthy in this situation).

thanks,

s

I absolutely believe it is mitigating; I have said this from the time I began posting on this thread.

Jaimee is painted as being such a horrible mother but, given that she was in foster care herself at 8 years old, clearly she did not have the child raising tools one learns from their own mother figure.

Carnel's great-aunt, Esther Chatfield, 58, lives next door to the home. She said she and her husband became Jaimee Chamberlain's foster parents when Chamberlain was 8 years old.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1639763.html