MI, Grand Blanc - Mass Shooting at Mormon Church, fire, 28 Sept 2025

[nao]

There is a difference between an opinion and an obsession.

Obsessions usually lead people astray.

JMO

Moo..what is the difference between obsession and having unwavering faith in your beliefs?...moo

 

[Diddian]

According to this article, Sanford's DUI charge was in Utah in 2010. He registered a blood-alcohol level of 0.18. He pled guilty to a reduced charge (misdemeanor), paid a $750 fine, did community service and had to undergo an alcohol/substance use evaluation as part of probation.

The burglary charge relates to theft in 2011 of jewelry and about $15 from a change jar from his parent's home after he moved back to Michigan from Utah, where he had developed a meth addiction. He was continuing to use (including smoking a substance called K2) after he returned to Michigan and his parents had sought advice from local authorities about help for their son's addiction, since faith based counseling and intervention had not helped. Ultimately, his parents did not press for prosecution.

Parents of Michigan church shooter called police after he burglarized their home in 2011

The man who police say was responsible for killing four worshippers and injuring eight others at a Grand Blanc Township church this week was dealing with methamphetamine addiction when he was arrested for a felony burglary of his parents’ home more than a decade ago, according to police records.

www.mlive.com

 

[Dotta]

Moo..what is the difference between obsession and having unwavering faith in your beliefs?...moo

The difference is:

Obsessions are intrusive, persistent, uncontrollable, distressing.
Sometimes leading to tragedies
(as this case shows)

Opinions are voluntary thoughts that don't cause anxiety.
They don't interfere with a person's ability to function or interact with others.

JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

Moo..what is the difference between obsession and having unwavering faith in your beliefs?...moo

Hatred.

Most people (I hope) can have strong beliefs without hating people who don't hold the same beliefs. Of course, they can be convinced that others are the enemy, and that's the scary part, imo.

jmopinion

 

[OneLove]

Moo..what is the difference between obsession and having unwavering faith in your beliefs?...moo

This is what Ai gives as the distinction. I believe it is generally accepted as truth though I'm sure there are obsessives who will obstinately claim their obsession is just unwavering faith.

>>>While unwavering faith provides a sense of hope and purpose, obsession is characterized by anxiety, loss of control, and a negative impact on other areas of life. Unwavering faith is an intentional choice, while obsession is an intrusive, consuming preoccupation.<<<

Editing to add that the licensed professionals i know would use the term "ruminating thoughts" and "intrusive thoughts".

It can well be considered intrusive if he's ruminating on it at a wedding celebration or during a door knock campaign visit from a stranger.

 

[nao]

According to this article, Sanford's DUI charge was in Utah in 2010. He registered a blood-alcohol level of 0.18. He pled guilty to a reduced charge (misdemeanor), paid a $750 fine, did community service and had to undergo an alcohol/substance use evaluation as part of probation.

The burglary charge relates to theft in 2011 of jewelry and about $15 from a change jar from his parent's home after he moved back to Michigan from Utah, where he had developed a meth addiction. He was continuing to use (including smoking a substance called K2) after he returned to Michigan and his parents had sought advice from local authorities about help for their son's addiction, since faith based counseling and intervention had not helped. Ultimately, his parents did not press for prosecution.

Parents of Michigan church shooter called police after he burglarized their home in 2011

The man who police say was responsible for killing four worshippers and injuring eight others at a Grand Blanc Township church this week was dealing with methamphetamine addiction when he was arrested for a felony burglary of his parents’ home more than a decade ago, according to police records.

www.mlive.com

Moo..faith based counseling and intervention had not helped... interesting...wonder what faith they relied on...moo

 

[layer]

Moo...just my own opinion. I am acquainted with many people mid 30 n up age, that have rigid views of politics, religion, vaccines, chem trails, government surveillance, immigration etc,etc . I listen but , people are entitled to their opinions. That's their thing. But no way do I expect them to do anything violent about their beliefs. It's not my place to second guess people's possible actions...

"Bad chemicals and bad ideas were the Yin and Yang of madness."
Kurt Vonnegut

 

[iamshadow21]

Craig Hayden, 72, was killed while trying to help others in the congregation.

Victim in Michigan church shooting died trying to help another worshipper, family says

Craig Hayden, 72, was among at least four people who were killed at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Grand Blanc Township.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Leve]

Mormon church raise $200,000 for shooter's family. Not sure if this has been posted yet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2025/10/01/lds-mormon-church-shooting-fundraiser-sanford/

 

[Ontario Mom]

According to this article, Sanford's DUI charge was in Utah in 2010. He registered a blood-alcohol level of 0.18. He pled guilty to a reduced charge (misdemeanor), paid a $750 fine, did community service and had to undergo an alcohol/substance use evaluation as part of probation.

The burglary charge relates to theft in 2011 of jewelry and about $15 from a change jar from his parent's home after he moved back to Michigan from Utah, where he had developed a meth addiction. He was continuing to use (including smoking a substance called K2) after he returned to Michigan and his parents had sought advice from local authorities about help for their son's addiction, since faith based counseling and intervention had not helped. Ultimately, his parents did not press for prosecution.

Parents of Michigan church shooter called police after he burglarized their home in 2011

The man who police say was responsible for killing four worshippers and injuring eight others at a Grand Blanc Township church this week was dealing with methamphetamine addiction when he was arrested for a felony burglary of his parents’ home more than a decade ago, according to police records.

www.mlive.com

If it weren't due to the circumstances we're even reading about this in the first place, this would just be astoundingly dense but almost humorous:

"When interviewed by police, Sanford denied having taken money from his parents’ home before he was asked if he had, according to the report. When a deputy pointed out that he hadn’t mentioned that any money had been taken, Sanford said, “Well, I didn’t take any jewelry from my parents either,” the report reads."

 

[Diddian]

If it weren't due to the circumstances we're even reading about this in the first place, this would just be astoundingly dense but almost humorous:

"When interviewed by police, Sanford denied having taken money from his parents’ home before he was asked if he had, according to the report. When a deputy pointed out that he hadn’t mentioned that any money had been taken, Sanford said, “Well, I didn’t take any jewelry from my parents either,” the report reads."

I have a relative (nephew) who is a meth/heroin addict. As was his mother (my late sister).

In my experience, the addiction becomes ALL and honesty, rationality, and respect for family and other relationships are all surrendered to that addiction. And any trust or relationship is only valuable as currency to serve the addiction.

The continual lying and manipulation is exasperating and the loss of relationship with the human being they once were is heartbreaking.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

It's very much a case of, when people show you who they are, believe them. (Thank you, Maya.)

He was showing people all around him what he believed deeply and completely, and nobody who has talked to the press so far took it seriously, pushed back, or suggested he should get help. They just brushed it off, enjoyed his jokes and taking their photos in his sunflower field.

And here we are.

MOO

It's very much a case of, when people show you who they are, believe them. (Thank you, Maya.)

You betcha, @iamshadow21 .... Maya knew...

 

[layer]

Craig Hayden, 72, was killed while trying to help others in the congregation.

Wish I could learn more about this guy, no one lives to 72 without having awesome stories. I'll keep my eye out for obits.

 

[Charlot123]

According to this article, Sanford's DUI charge was in Utah in 2010. He registered a blood-alcohol level of 0.18. He pled guilty to a reduced charge (misdemeanor), paid a $750 fine, did community service and had to undergo an alcohol/substance use evaluation as part of probation.

The burglary charge relates to theft in 2011 of jewelry and about $15 from a change jar from his parent's home after he moved back to Michigan from Utah, where he had developed a meth addiction. He was continuing to use (including smoking a substance called K2) after he returned to Michigan and his parents had sought advice from local authorities about help for their son's addiction, since faith based counseling and intervention had not helped. Ultimately, his parents did not press for prosecution.

Parents of Michigan church shooter called police after he burglarized their home in 2011

The man who police say was responsible for killing four worshippers and injuring eight others at a Grand Blanc Township church this week was dealing with methamphetamine addiction when he was arrested for a felony burglary of his parents’ home more than a decade ago, according to police records.

www.mlive.com

Combining meth with K2 (synthetic marijuana) is even worse. K2 comes in different forms, and in itself may have unpredictable effects, being a stimulant and a hallucinogen. The combo is probably disastrous. I remember Sebastian Zapata, who was high on K2 and set a woman on fire in NYC subway. (Also a very strange behavior, sitting on a bench and watching it.)

Could it be a long-lasting use of strong substances, very noxious for the brain, that caused such murderous, but also, bizarre transformation of the personality?

K2 is Not tested by the standard panel or even 10-test tox panel. Special tests should be ordered. Luckily, the guy had enough hair to test for a lot of things. It may take LE a while, but i hope they get the answers and share the information with the community.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I'm not so sure.

With MH issues NOT properly treated,
it is usually a downward spiral for some people.
Sooner or later tragedy happens.

This assumes that mental health issues can always be treated, whether the individual complies with the treatment or not. I'm not a mental health expert by any means but I'm aware that there are mental health conditions which simply cannot be treated, either because all available treatment options have already been tried and failed or simply because the condition is untreatable. It has been found, for example, that any attempts to reason with many people way down the conspiracy rabbit hole merely pushes them further down it because they perceive the other person as part of the conspiracy.

With physical illnesses, sometimes you just run out of options and sometimes there are no effective treatment options at all. The same is the case with some mental illnesses. The difference is that with physical illnesses the person affected generally either dies or becomes too badly affected to be dangerous to others, but with mental illness they can go on for decades as a permanent danger to society.

 

[Charlot123]

This assumes that mental health issues can always be treated, whether the individual complies with the treatment or not. I'm not a mental health expert by any means but I'm aware that there are mental health conditions which simply cannot be treated, either because all available treatment options have already been tried and failed or simply because the condition is untreatable. It has been found, for example, that any attempts to reason with many people way down the conspiracy rabbit hole merely pushes them further down it because they perceive the other person as part of the conspiracy.

With physical illnesses, sometimes you just run out of options and sometimes there are no effective treatment options at all. The same is the case with some mental illnesses. The difference is that with physical illnesses the person affected generally either dies or becomes too badly affected to be dangerous to others, but with mental illness they can go on for decades as a permanent danger to society.

In a way, it is a physical case. The man had a severe trauma to his head. As the result, he could barely walk, became paranoid and lost the ability to coherently express himself. It happened fifteen years ago, so little hope for improvement. He processed this world the way his brain was able to, and his brain was limited.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

In a way, it is a physical case. The man had a severe trauma to his head. As the result, he could barely walk, became paranoid and lost the ability to coherently express himself. It happened fifteen years ago, so little hope for improvement. He processed this world the way his brain was able to, and his brain was limited.

I thought the severe head trauma case was the man who shot up the bar in Southport.