MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #3

[black_squirrel]

Justice for Julia is important but it is not the only thing at stake here. In Grandma Rose's interview, she states that she asked JT why he got a lawyer. Then she said, with indignation, that he replied "I am fighting for my freedom." First of all, he is correct. He IS fighting for his freedom. This fight is not just for himself, but also for his family. The youngest daughter has already lost an uncle and a sister, and is now separated from her father, and there has been an effort by Grandma Rose to separate her from her mother as well. JT is fighting for his family.

It seems obvious to me why JT got a lawyer early on (although there seem to be conflicting statements about when he got a lawyer). It seems that grandma Rose started to point a finger at JT early on. Also, 4ist stated on this forum that she started wondering if JT had anything to do with Julia's murder 2 days after her death. Moreover, JT was asked to submit to a lie detector test, which he did and passed. I think it is advisable to always get a lawyer when doing a lie detector test or any type of formal statement, to make sure the questions aren't ambiguous and the answers aren't being twisted.

 

[Trojan1966]

Justice for Julia is important but it is not the only thing at stake here. In Grandma Rose's interview, she states that she asked JT why he got a lawyer. Then she said, with indignation, that he replied "I am fighting for my freedom." First of all, he is correct. He IS fighting for his freedom. This fight is not just for himself, but also for his family. The youngest daughter has already lost an uncle and a sister, and is now separated from her father, and there has been an effort by Grandma Rose to separate her from her mother as well. JT is fighting for his family.

It seems obvious to me why JT got a lawyer early on (although there seem to be conflicting statements about when he got a lawyer). It seems that grandma Rose started to point a finger at JT early on. Also, 4ist stated on this forum that she started wondering if JT had anything to do with Julia's murder 2 days after her death. Moreover, JT was asked to submit to a lie detector test, which he did and passed. I think it is advisable to always get a lawyer when doing a lie detector test or any type of formal statement, to make sure the questions aren't ambiguous and the answers aren't being twisted.

Now that he has a lawyer, why not take your lawyer with you to visit LE and give a statement. With his lawyer there, they could end the interview or statement at any time. Doing something like this would probably help LE "clear" him and continue with the investigation by not "focusing" on him. Am I wrong to think this is the most logical thing to do if he truly wants justice? Maybe he "enjoys" being the center of attention, if there's nothing to hide then cooperate!

 

[black_squirrel]

I read somewhere that murder by drowning is quite rare. It seems like an important clue. If the murderer strangled Julia first, then why did he (or she) not continue until she passed away. Why are there 2 steps in this murder?

One possibility might be that the murderer wanted to make it look like an accidental drowning. But I am not so sure about this. Apparently there were several indicators that this was not a drowning accident (position of body, disarray of room, other evidence that police has not disclosed but that according to LE indicated foul play).

Another possibility is that Julia was first drugged (which may cause asphyxiation by slowing breathing), then drowned. So I was wondering if a murder like this has ever happened. And I found this one:
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Linda_Andersen
BTW, the murderers of Linda Andersen are free and their names are unknown. Theoretically it is even possible that Julia has been murdered by one of these two perps, although unlikely. Perhaps one can use this murder as a template for Julia's murder and see how it could be adapted so that it would fit the details of Julia's murder.

 

[psyquestor]

1. Child Charges: Fair enough. This is a red flag. Whether these charges are true is still to be determined. This is the reason why JT cannot stay with his daughter.
2. "Controlling Behavior". What controlling behavior? I do not see any evidence of that.
3. Julia moving out of the home due to conflicts. Nearly every child has conflicts with their parents. Also, it is normal to move out of your parents house in your early 20's, to become more independent and have more freedom. This is not a red flag.
4. Grandma's allegations of sexual abuse. Note that she did not make any accusations of sexual abuse before the child charges. Obviously, if someone is accused of child possession, people start suspecting that this person may also be guilty of child abuse. But this is not a new red flag.

There are various references to the controlling behavior of JT 1. Some family members 2. Some parents and children at the Do Jo 3. Obviously the Do Jo took these seriously enough to remove him from teaching duties.

We do not know that Grandma Rose only had these suspicions after the Child charges. She is not here to speak for herself. We do however know that she has had suspicions based on the quote in the article. Further that same article said that Rose had pressed [paraphrasing] Julia many times about specifics and she was not forthcoming. Rose felt there were many secrets. (these dating back 3 years prior to her death when IIRC is when she moved in with Grandma; according to the article).

You may not consider it a red flag but the fact that the relationship with her parents (particularly JT) was strained enough to move out, is a flag for me. Of course you have a right to your opinion as do I.

I'm going to interject here for a moment.

In the beginning of following this case, it appeared that Grandma Rose was the only person doubting JT's innocence. News articles and statements by the family only seemed to encourage this appearance. Insinuations that Rose was the one who made the abuse allegations also were printed. (the statement by Jennifer that stated that she could guess who made those claims). I for one had no opinion over guilt or innocence in the early days of this case and thought it possible that Grandma was in the wrong. It would not be the first time a MIL didn't care for her SIL.

However I now believe Grandma Rose is simply a favored scapegoat.

Later, as more was learned / printed / reported, I began to waiver if indeed Grandma wasn't on to something. As backed up now by several other family members, reports, flags...

So I have kept an open mind until just recently. There is simply too much out there pointing to guilt for me to easily brush aside. These include very odd statements by JT (which I do take as a minor flag, knowing that people differ in their response to stress etc.). I'm finding it very hard to believe that JT isn't hiding something. That is an OPINION I have.

It will be very interesting to see what comes out of the child case. Up till recently we were told (by insiders and the lawyer) that these were unfounded and would be tossed out. It appears the charges are not only standing, but have been increased to 18 images. Also the minor child is still being kept away from JT; which CPS is probably privy to information about the exact nature of the images; we are not.

MOO

 

[MIMOMMY]

Julia did not move out of the family home because of JT - She left the family home because of a disagreement with her mother, KT. It was not a "strained relationship" situation - but rather, from my understanding, one particular disagreement that got out of hand and led to her moving out of the home.

**This story has been confirmed to me by not only JT, and KT, but other family members

Also, touche that Grandma Rose speaks at all about family secrets - but I'm sure all of those will come out as well.

 

[psyquestor]

Who cares if they would or wouldn't have been reimbursed for the price of the door, at least they and their minor children would have had privacy while using the rest room. Also, since when does installing a door on hinges cause property damage??

I agree with you about one statement being misrepresented, then why couldn't another... only I question the self serving statements being presented by the accused, and his wife to MIMOMMY, whom she just met in the fall of 2012, shortly before Julia was murdered.

Agree with the above and also the fact that Trojan has been in the home in question and saw for himself what was going on there. He knew the people at the time; questioned them at the time; has photos of the home in Gaylord. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I trust what he is saying more than I trust some supposed secondhand news. I give the opinion of the grandparents (in this case Jim Niswender) more weight than someone else.

That having been said - if someone could provide a MSM quote or something more than hearsay; I'd be interested in reading it. I'd call many of the "disputes" we've been having "He said / She said" except for the fact that much of this is coming from someone second / third hand who didn't even know the family at the time in question and only knew them on a casual basis a few weeks prior to the murder.

FWIW - MOO - yadda yadda

 

[psyquestor]

Julia did not move out of the family home because of JT - She left the family home because of a disagreement with her mother, KT. It was not a "strained relationship" situation - but rather, from my understanding, one particular disagreement that got out of hand and led to her moving out of the home.

**This story has been confirmed to me by not only JT, and KT, but other family members

Also, touche that Grandma Rose speaks at all about family secrets - but I'm sure all of those will come out as well.

How long have you personally known "Grandma Rose?"
What first hand knowledge do you have about Grandma Rose? (or any other grandparents of Julia).
Why do you keep baiting with insinuations that other family members secrets will be coming out?
What relevance do these "secrets" you allude to have with anything, other than a swipe at their credibility? (much like your other comment about 'I bet other family members wouldn't want their mental health issues discussed." (paraphrasing but that was it in a nutshell).

You've lost any credibility so far as I'm concerned.

That's about it for now. I'll be back later with more.

 

[MIMOMMY]

How long have you personally known "Grandma Rose?" I do not personally know Grandma Rose - I do however know KT, JT, Jennifer, the minor child, Grandma T, and Grandma T's long standing close friend, as well as other close personal friends of the family
What first hand knowledge do you have about Grandma Rose? (or any other grandparents of Julia). See Above
Why do you keep baiting with insinuations that other family members secrets will be coming out? My understanding is that we are all allowed our opinion in these threads and this is mine
What relevance do these "secrets" you allude to have with anything, other than a swipe at their credibility? (much like your other comment about 'I bet other family members wouldn't want their mental health issues discussed." (paraphrasing but that was it in a nutshell. Perhaps the credibility of certain persons, you have stated your opinion of mine - again, I believe I am allowed to state mine as well

You've lost any credibility so far as I'm concerned.

That's about it for now. I'll be back later with more.

Please see my responses!

 

[psyquestor]

I'd say IN MY OPINION that these idle threats you keep making constitute ad hominem attacks and are an attempt to malign those people who are actually talking out and seeking justice for Julia. Your attempts have failed and I believe are your own attempt IMHO to fluff yourself up or trump the verified family members posting here. I've given my opinion on how much weight I give this.

This is my opinion and are stated as such. They are not an attack on you personally; just an observation of your apparent tactics thus far. It seems fruitless to continue to carry on conversations with someone under such circumstances.

 

[MIMOMMY]

Also, I know yesterday we discussed Self Serving Bias - But perhaps there is another way to look at it:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defense

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Trojan1966]

Please see my responses!

MIMOMMY: Who do you know personally on Kim's side of the family?
So possibly your view is somewhat one sided and only over the last few years.
I will readily admit that I have met JT's mom, dad, sister and step mom but that I don't really know them personally.

 

[rosesfromangels]

MiMommy - I have tried several times to get this thread back to sleuthing and need your help!
Can you talk to Kim/Jennifer and help us develop an activity profile on Julia?
Again, I'm looking for routines outside the classroom.
Examples would be: every Sunday night was laundry night at the local laudromat. Wednesdays she always went to the sandwhich shop to get her favorite potato salad.

Thanks if possible

 

[MIMOMMY]

Trojan, as you know from our private conversations, my goal is the same as yours to find Justice for Julia.

I only ask that we all attempt to remember there are two sides to every story and situations. I'm sure we can all agree that at times this is a very one-sided thread with a lot of gaps in information for obvious reasons.

 

[MIMOMMY]

MiMommy - I have tried several times to get this thread back to sleuthing and need your help!
Can you talk to Kim/Jennifer and help us develop an activity profile on Julia?
Again, I'm looking for routines outside the classroom.
Examples would be: every Sunday night was laundry night at the local laudromat. Wednesdays she always went to the sandwhich shop to get her favorite potato salad.

Thanks if possible

Rose - I have mentioned this to KT. She is very busy with work and parenting, as you can imagine. I will make contact again tonight.

 

[black_squirrel]

There are various references to the controlling behavior of JT 1. Some family members 2. Some parents and children at the Do Jo 3. Obviously the Do Jo took these seriously enough to remove him from teaching duties.

Sure, some extended family members have accused JT of controlling behavior and worse. But when asked for examples, the things that come up are "bathroom door" (let's not go into that again) or JT's request that the twins use their hot iron in the garage rather than in their small house. It seems to me quite natural to ask children to be considerate of other people living in the house. These are NOT examples of controlling behavior. I think that JT may be a bit old-fashioned and strict, but that is very different from being controlling. I doubt if any parents complained that JT is "controlling" because that does not seem like a typical complaint. What kind of controlling behavior is this? I can imagine that some parents complaint that he is too strict but that is something different in my opinion. Discipline and self-discipline is an important part of martial arts. Decades ago, martial arts studios used to have very strict discipline, but times have changed. Maybe JT's style does not fit the children's program so well, and he teaches more hardened adults instead. Anyway, so far I have not seen or heard any example of controlling behavior. If he IS controlling, then his controlling behavior is not successful. I am not sure even who "wears the pants" in the Turnquist household.

We do not know that Grandma Rose only had these suspicions after the Child charges. She is not here to speak for herself.

Granted, she may have had suspicions before. But if she did, why did she not act upon it?

We do however know that she has had suspicions based on the quote in the article. Further that same article said that Rose had pressed [paraphrasing] Julia many times about specifics and she was not forthcoming. Rose felt there were many secrets. (these dating back 3 years prior to her death when IIRC is when she moved in with Grandma; according to the article).

Perhaps Julia did not trust Rose enough to tell her everything. My impression is that she has not always been discrete about private matters of other family members.

You may not consider it a red flag but the fact that the relationship with her parents (particularly JT) was strained enough to move out, is a flag for me. Of course you have a right to your opinion as do I.

The relationship wasn't strained at the time of Julia's death.

I'm going to interject here for a moment.

In the beginning of following this case, it appeared that Grandma Rose was the only person doubting JT's innocence. News articles and statements by the family only seemed to encourage this appearance. Insinuations that Rose was the one who made the abuse allegations also were printed. (the statement by Jennifer that stated that she could guess who made those claims). I for one had no opinion over guilt or innocence in the early days of this case and thought it possible that Grandma was in the wrong. It would not be the first time a MIL didn't care for her SIL.

However I now believe Grandma Rose is simply a favored scapegoat.

Later, as more was learned / printed / reported, I began to waiver if indeed Grandma wasn't on to something. As backed up now by several other family members, reports, flags...

So I have kept an open mind until just recently. There is simply too much out there pointing to guilt for me to easily brush aside. These include very odd statements by JT (which I do take as a minor flag, knowing that people differ in their response to stress etc.).

What odd statements?

I'm finding it very hard to believe that JT isn't hiding something. That is an OPINION I have.

It will be very interesting to see what comes out of the child case. Up till recently we were told (by insiders and the lawyer) that these were unfounded and would be tossed out. It appears the charges are not only standing, but have been increased to 18 images. Also the minor child is still being kept away from JT; which CPS is probably privy to information about the exact nature of the images; we are not.

MOO

I think JT is kept away because of the Judges orders, I think. I am not sure if CPS has seen any of the images, or whether they have any authority to let JT back into his house.

 

[black_squirrel]

How long have you personally known "Grandma Rose?"
What first hand knowledge do you have about Grandma Rose? (or any other grandparents of Julia).
Why do you keep baiting with insinuations that other family members secrets will be coming out?
What relevance do these "secrets" you allude to have with anything, other than a swipe at their credibility? (much like your other comment about 'I bet other family members wouldn't want their mental health issues discussed." (paraphrasing but that was it in a nutshell).

You've lost any credibility so far as I'm concerned.

That's about it for now. I'll be back later with more.

Grandma Rose was, like JT, Kim, and Jennifer close to Julia. So she should be subjected to the same scrutiny as the others, IMO. Whatever secret's these people have can be relevant to the investigation. MOO

 

[Trojan1966]

Let's get back to trying to solve the murder of Julia. We have to agree that there are two sides to every story and all the character accusations are not getting us anywhere. I'm glad that we do have people on this thread that are focused on our main goal. Others seem to try to play sides and protect someone or try to deflect blame for most anything. Let's just start dealing with facts as rosefromangels has suggested. Let's gather info about Julia's normal habits and places she would go. A timeline for that last Sunday, Monday and Tuesday would be nice. If interested, I have tried to develop one but it may need more work. Should I post what I've developed and possibly we can build on it? I'll be "off line" for a few hours but I'll check back later this evening.

 

[dmc43613]

Let's get back to trying to solve the murder of Julia. We have to agree that there are two sides to every story and all the character accusations are not getting us anywhere. I'm glad that we do have people on this thread that are focused on our main goal. Others seem to try to play sides and protect someone or try to deflect blame for most anything. Let's just start dealing with facts as rosefromangels has suggested. Let's gather info about Julia's normal habits and places she would go. A timeline for that last Sunday, Monday and Tuesday would be nice. If interested, I have tried to develop one but it may need more work. Should I post what I've developed and possibly we can build on it? I'll be "off line" for a few hours but I'll check back later this evening.

Thank you Trojan, I for one would love the opportunity to check out the timeline you have started.

 

[MIMOMMY]

The report is that Julia passed between midnight and 3 - 4 am Sunday into Monday. This is the time frame we need to be looking at.

 

[dmc43613]

The report is that Julia passed between midnight and 3 - 4 am Sunday into Monday. This is the time frame we need to be looking at.

I agree Mimommy, but I guess we were hoping to establish if there were any daily/weekly patterns/routines Julia had? Did she have a washer and dryer in the apartment? Did she do laundry on Sunday nights? Could she have been followed back to the apartment from the laundry facilities?