MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #5

[FindHG]

Been trying to make sense of where the tensions could have been coming from, besides child abuse, as Julia was no longer a child, but a young willful woman, hard working, inspired by her future, not looking back, moving forward, compassionately, it would seem if she was willing to pitch in for a computer, bought from where she works. Speculatively:

It often occurs when you help people buy new computers, transferring files may become an issue. Could Julia in her attempt to make the new computer easy to use have taken the initiative to do so and that have caused some underlying conflict? She may have touched the third rail of her stepdad's personality and his unjust suspicion may have been at issue?

 

[Hatfield]

Been trying to make sense of where the tensions could have been coming from, besides child abuse, as Julia was no longer a child, but a young willful, hard working, inspired by her future, not looking back, moving forward, compassionately, it would seem if she was willing to pitch in for a computer, bought from where she works. Speculatively:

It often occurs when you help people buy new computers, transferring files may become an issue. Could Julia in her attempt to make the new computer easy to use have taken the initiative to do so and that have caused some underlying conflict? She may have touched the third rail of her stepdad's personality and his unjust suspicion may have been at issue?

This is an interesting theory.

If there was attempts to copy all the old data from one computer to another then perhaps someone got upset and could have caused arguments.

 

[FindHG]

This is an interesting theory.

If there was attempts to copy all the old data from one computer to another then perhaps someone got upset and could have caused arguments.

Or even the notion of it, depending on whose data your dealing with and whether trust is at issue, tends to set off sparks.

 

[psyquestor]

I think that once his lawyer requested the additional information there was a meeting of minds on both sides of LE... I think they gave the minimum information for THIS hearing ... I think they have a lot of information that we are not privy to. They probably weighed both sides and decided to not "worry" as much about this trial but to hold on to information as not to HINDER the murder case they are investigating.

Just because of this trial going the way it did I don't see any change in the investigation and the route it is on. It seems like some people are now saying poor JT... I feel the same way as I did before and I think if there wasn't a murder involved in all this the trial would have had much different ending.... Normally when there is smoke there is fire... JMO

I linked to a paper in an early thread that did suggest that maladaptive coping and sexual disfunction occur in many who have suffered incestuous sexual abuse. For example, being aroused by inappropriate stimuli (such as young people, or rape, or ...). There are various theories as to why this is but all seem to point to the maturing brain learning these behaviors as a result of the abuse. Another site states similarly with the same author cited:

Incest is now believed to be transmitted from one generation to the next through several such mechanisms. Calof (1987) discusses incest as a symptom of a transgenerational family process with both intrapsychic and inter-personal components. He believes that the intrapsychic process is the "mechanism of incest promulgation." As such, it is the mechanism in need of intervention to stop the abuse cycle. Denial and dissociation are primary aspects of this intrapsychic process.<snipped for brevity>

Link here: http://www.survivorshandbook.com/the-incestuous-family/

However, this is not proof of any wrong doing (naturally) and neither of these cases ( or Julia's murder) is contingent upon the other. The behavior of JT can be explained to some extent by his abusive past; however; the past often repeats itself - as in the case of marrying then becoming non-sexual with one's spouse. Repeated pattern. JT has had more than one encounter with incest according to the beliefs of the persons cited in the report. The ability to forego social norms and sleep with one's sibling for example is indicative of this IMHOO (not a professional). Having sex with a pseudo sibling is not that far removed from sleeping with your step daughter. IMHOO Again, doing one doesn't mean you would do the other, but it also indicates a removal from social norms in ones sexual behavior.

JMOO
Disclaimer - no facts here, just my opinion

ETA Another component is the alleged incestuous relationship that JT's mother had with her own father. This does "run" in families as a learned behavior. Sister also - so anyway...queue this addition under imhoo

 

[psyquestor]

BBM
I think the bolded comment is the key. No or too little sperm found, the sample is too small; and she was in the water for how long? Could be other factors that made it too difficult. Or possibly samples have been sent for further, more intensive testing?

Perhaps the sample was degraded via chemical means (such as a cleaner; bleach or similar). Just because one was degraded doesn't mean the other wasn't missed (at least in the area swabbed). In other words, you know what you're looking at but there is not enough viable DnA to secure a panel.

Is this a possibility?

 

[psyquestor]

Been trying to make sense of where the tensions could have been coming from, besides child abuse, as Julia was no longer a child, but a young willful woman, hard working, inspired by her future, not looking back, moving forward, compassionately, it would seem if she was willing to pitch in for a computer, bought from where she works. Speculatively:

It often occurs when you help people buy new computers, transferring files may become an issue. Could Julia in her attempt to make the new computer easy to use have taken the initiative to do so and that have caused some underlying conflict? She may have touched the third rail of her stepdad's personality and his unjust suspicion may have been at issue?

Don't forget that JT was allegedly upset that Julia was dating (or interested in) a man he didn't approve of; due to the color of his skin. Also possessiveness might have been at play IF Julia had indeed been sexually molested by JT as a girl.

The statement by her Mom that Julia was (paraphrasing) promiscuous really got my attention. Plausible deniability if you BLAME the victim for the abuse and not the perpetrator. (speculation; many families blame the victim and not the abuser in incest sexual abuse). Again; this would be pseudo-incest as there is no real blood relation. (though the difference is pretty mute as far as I'm concerned).

Let's step into her shoes for a minute and see if this washes =
Your daughter has been murdered by someone and the police are asking you for a statement. You don't make a formal statement but you volunteer that your daughter sleeps around (again paraphrasing) and her own twin states to the paper (perhaps unintentionally - in regards to sexual partners) in the plural? It really seems there was an effort to demonize or scapegoat Julia. Also stating she was a "party girl." Not very kind in light of her being deceased and unable to defend herself. smh. JT isn't the only one making odd statements about Julia IMHOO; as he was said to have "downed" her as well.

 

[FindHG]

Don't forget that JT was allegedly upset that Julia was dating (or interested in) a man he didn't approve of; due to the color of his skin. Also possessiveness might have been at play IF Julia had indeed been sexually molested by JT as a girl.

The statement by her Mom that Julia was (paraphrasing) promiscuous really got my attention. Plausible deniability if you BLAME the victim for the abuse and not the perpetrator. (speculation; many families blame the victim and not the abuser in incest sexual abuse). Again; this would be pseudo-incest as there is no real blood relation. (though the difference is pretty mute as far as I'm concerned).

Let's step into her shoes for a minute and see if this washes =
Your daughter has been murdered by someone and the police are asking you for a statement. You don't make a formal statement but you volunteer that your daughter sleeps around (again paraphrasing) and her own twin states to the paper (perhaps unintentionally - in regards to sexual partners) in the plural? It really seems there was an effort to demonize or scapegoat Julia. Also stating she was a "party girl." Not very kind in light of her being deceased and unable to defend herself. smh. JT isn't the only one making odd statements about Julia IMHOO; as he was said to have "downed" her as well.

Exactly, psyquestor, agreed, makes sense to me too. That whole line about her out of bounds friendliness was evident in of what some close to them were quoted saying in the press, IIRC, it was something about friends they'd probably never know about. Does it somehow sound like a topic that may have made it around more than LE's table previous to that night, among those friends.

That being said, with this new information, we know for sure that it is information they chose to share the first night with LE, so it may be distancing, if he's implicit, from the start.

 

[georgiasblu]

Exactly, psyquestor, agreed, makes sense to me too. That whole line about her out of bounds friendliness was evident in of what some close to them were quoted saying in the press, IIRC, it was something about friends they'd probably never know about. Does it somehow sound like a topic that may have made it around more than LE's table previous to that night, among those friends.

That being said, with this new information, we know for sure that it is information they chose to share the first night with LE, so it may be distancing, if he's implicit, from the start.

FindHG, that has bugged me since I read that. It seemed so unnecessary. Almost like she was getting what she deserved. It was odd to say on the night you've learned your daughter was murdered. Didn't he call her flighty or something at one of the vigils?

 

[black_squirrel]

Been trying to make sense of where the tensions could have been coming from, besides child abuse, as Julia was no longer a child, but a young willful woman, hard working, inspired by her future, not looking back, moving forward, compassionately, it would seem if she was willing to pitch in for a computer, bought from where she works. Speculatively:

It often occurs when you help people buy new computers, transferring files may become an issue. Could Julia in her attempt to make the new computer easy to use have taken the initiative to do so and that have caused some underlying conflict? She may have touched the third rail of her stepdad's personality and his unjust suspicion may have been at issue?

The new computer was bought on lay-away if I remember correctly, and had not been fully paid for yet. Julia and Jennifer did not physically have the new computer so no data transfer would have been possible.

 

[black_squirrel]

The statement by her Mom that Julia was (paraphrasing) promiscuous really got my attention. Plausible deniability if you BLAME the victim for the abuse and not the perpetrator. (speculation; many families blame the victim and not the abuser in incest sexual abuse). Again; this would be pseudo-incest as there is no real blood relation. (though the difference is pretty mute as far as I'm concerned).

Let's step into her shoes for a minute and see if this washes =
Your daughter has been murdered by someone and the police are asking you for a statement. You don't make a formal statement but you volunteer that your daughter sleeps around (again paraphrasing) and her own twin states to the paper (perhaps unintentionally - in regards to sexual partners) in the plural? It really seems there was an effort to demonize or scapegoat Julia. Also stating she was a "party girl." Not very kind in light of her being deceased and unable to defend herself. smh. JT isn't the only one making odd statements about Julia IMHOO; as he was said to have "downed" her as well.

I don't think we should put words in the mouth of Jim & Kim. It is detective Coppock who used the word "promiscuous". She writes

They admitted to Julia being sexually promiscuous ...

The word here is not in quotation marks. It sounds to me that Coppock asked them whether Julia had many sexual partners, and they replied yes. Of course they could have lied to the detective, to protect Julia's name. However, in my opinion, it would be best to be truthful to detectives so that they can do their investigation effectively. Coppock writes, they "admit" to it. This suggests, that they gave this information rather reluctantly. On the other hand, according to the detective, they did say literally that she was a "party girl". I don't know Julia personally, but my impression is that she probably would have agreed.

 

[FindHG]

The new computer was bought on lay-away if I remember correctly, and had not been fully paid for yet. Julia and Jennifer did not physically have the new computer so no data transfer would have been possible.

Okay, respectfully. That has been mentioned before, b_s. It doesn't rule out tension over it, just the same? Who knows what's up? It's hard to make sense of such an obscene senseless murder, Julia left that way in a bathroom.

All those doors, even if the perp had keys from before, taking the keys could be an act of distancing or symbolic trophies. You don't need keys to get out, after all, just back in.

Another way to dismiss it would be for Turnquist to be clear about what PC he used where and where the missing one is and why? Why would it be a risk to him to tell LE anything that could help?

 

[Skigirl]

Okay, respectfully. That has been mentioned before, b_s. It doesn't rule out tension over it, just the same? Who knows what's up? It's hard to make sense of such an obscene senseless murder, Julia left that way in a bathroom.

All those doors, even if the perp had keys from before, taking the keys could be an act of distancing or symbolic trophies. You don't need keys to get out, after all, just back in.

Another way to dismiss it would be for Turnquist to be clear about what PC he used where and where the missing one is and why? Why would it be a risk to him to tell LE anything that could help?

Regarding the keys, I don't think they were taken as trophies (or not solely as trophies). I think that the murderer wanted as much time to pass as possible before her body was found and he wanted to lock her door so her roommate couldn't easily check on her, and wanted to lock up the apartment on the way out to avoid anyone becoming alarmed.


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[FindHG]

Regarding the keys, I don't think they were taken as trophies (or not solely as trophies). I think that the murderer wanted as much time to pass as possible before her body was found and he wanted to lock her door so her roommate couldn't easily check on her, and wanted to lock up the apartment on the way out to avoid anyone becoming alarmed.


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Makes great sense, Skigirl. Thank you.

Don't both doors lock automatically? Would it have been necessary to lock her bedroom door or the outer door from the outside?

 

[Skigirl]

Makes great sense, skigirl. Thank you.

Don't both doors lock automatically? Would it have been necessary to lock her bedroom door or the outer door from the outside?

Good question -- I would bet the bedroom door didn't automatically lock because everyone would constantly be locking themselves out when they went to the living room or kitchen, but I don't know about the outer door to the apartment JMO

 

[FindHG]

Good question -- I would bet the bedroom door didn't automatically lock because everyone would constantly be locking themselves out when they went to the living room or kitchen, but I don't know about the outer door to the apartment JMO

You're right, Skigirl. LE may have a good idea on how the doors worked.

As planned as this seems to me, would some one this tight about planning, who potentially knew Julia, not random, then do this without having keys in advance?

 

[MamaDMK]

JT's cleaning business is far from "corporation" like. Generally when I saw him he was working alone, racing from one job to another. I saw him with staff only when he needed to complete a larger project for us in a short time frame. I would assume that Julia needed steady income and not just periodic income?

I was referring to Walmart as being the huge corporation.
Meaning, I would rather my children have a hand in the success of our locally owned & operated family business.
Did any family members help JT, or did he generally only hire outside staff?

 

[Trojan1966]

Makes great sense, Skigirl. Thank you.

Don't both doors lock automatically? Would it have been necessary to lock her bedroom door or the outer door from the outside?

I believe that Julia's bedroom door also had a dead bolt type lock that needs a key from the outside to lock. I was only in her apartment a few times when me & my wife visited. At that time, Jennifer was still in college but she lived in a big dorm on campus.

 

[Trojan1966]

I was referring to Walmart as being the huge corporation.
Meaning, I would rather my children have a hand in the success of our locally owned & operated family business.
Did any family members help JN, or did he generally only hire outside staff?

None of his immediate family did work for him. He had some employees that helped but how many and who, I don't know.

 

[FindHG]

I believe that Julia's bedroom door also had a dead bolt type lock that needs a key from the outside to lock. I was only in her apartment a few times when me & my wife visited. At that time, Jennifer was still in college but she lived in a big dorm on campus.

Thank you, Trojan for clearing the door lock up. So, it may be possible another set of Julia's keys were made at some point, to leave with her family members as a backup?

The more I think of the circumstances the more it seems the perp had to know or at least have a good idea of when to be there. Doesn't seem at all by chance, the timing. Sorry to harp on that point. She had so much going on, so many commitments, it seems odd that she would have chosen to discuss that she'd be working with Turnquist at 6 am.

Were there money tensions she may have felt obligated to pay off with work for him?

Could Turnquist have been in touch with that request to clear the deck, to avoid running into anyone late at night in her apartment, then later denied it, kind of caught out? That would seems like one reason not to talk to LE.

After all, there may have been an assumption that she may have friends he didn't know about, given the attitude depicted about her 'promiscuity' as perceived by Turnquist, the very night she was found.

 

[Trojan1966]

Thank you, Trojan for clearing the door lock up. So, it may be possible another set of Julia's keys were made at some point, to leave with her family members as a backup?


Were there money tensions she may have felt obligated to pay off with work for him?

As far as I know, she was wanting to work to earn "extra" money to do more Christmas shopping.