MI - Muslim flight attendant suspended for refusing to serve alcohol, 25 Aug 2015

[Donjeta]

Refusal not merely to sedate a person of the opposite sex, but to touch the person at all. Or maybe they'll only provide care to a person of the opposite sex if another healthcare worker is present. Or maybe they'll provide some care, but not assist with toileting, or give a sponge bath.

Maybe they won't provide care to any patient they consider "unclean."

Any refusal to provide healthcare because the patient is a religious taboo would be potentially problematic because then religion is in danger of colliding with medical ethics imo.

I think most codes of medical ethics have some lines about how the patient relationship is to be held in high standard regardless of the patient's social standing etc.

Eg

Whatsoever house I may enter, my visit shall be for the convenience and advantage of the patient; and I will willingly refrain from doing any injury or wrong from falsehood, and (in an especial manner) from acts of an amorous nature, whatever may be the rank of those who it may be my duty to cure, whether mistress or servant, bond or free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

I will not permit considerations of gender, race, religion, political affiliation, sexual orientation, nationality, or social standing to influence my duty of care.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1121898/

I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;

http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/g1/

The AMA declaration gives more leeway in being discriminatory in choosing your patients but even so, it does not apply in emergencies.Of course any health care provider can make career choices about where they work, which field they specialize in, which insurance they take, and may get different patient populations as a result, with no undue hardship to anyone. If you don't want to deal with female patients, it's probably best not to work in a gynecology ward, and not be the only GP in town etc.

VI. A physician shall, in the provision of appropriate patient care, except in emergencies, be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical care.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/phy...medical-ethics/principles-medical-ethics.page

Any health care professional who, in an emergency situation, would think about their religion or the ritual cleanness of the patient before checking out respiration, pulse, injuries etc., is probably in the wrong line of work. JMO.

 

[bluesneakers]

Starts working for the airline 3 years ago. Converts to Islam two years ago. Only realizes one year ago that serving alcohol is prohibited under her new faith.

I don't think so. The whole alcohol thingy would have come up at the time of conversion - early on. I smell a set-up for the cameras, controversy and religious point fwiw. Money is likely a distant fourth. Her lawyers background would be of interest imo. It's possible she is being used and doesn't realize it.

This case making any inroads in American way of conducting business would be a long lasting problem - all the reasons given in the many posts in between are very valid. She needs to be turfed and given no sympathy or accommodation. Jmo.

The same way the clerk is being taken advantage of in Kentucky. Without her benefactors I don't know how far she would have taken it on her own. She can't be the only religious county clerk in the country, just like this woman can't be the only Muslim flight attendant. (Can she?)

JMO etc.

 

[flourish]

I've done some crazy tasks at jobs. Once I had to go find movies featuring males alone in privacy masturbating, and make a video looping those scenes together. Another time I got to explain to an elderly mother that her 40 year old son had the right to buy Playboy. I've changed menstrual pads for goodness sake! I've had to explain everything from decomposition processes of roadkill to the discontinued use of ether in surgery to why it's not okay to hump one's peers to why books exist to why I can't physically move the drive-thru closer to your effing car. Work is work! It's not just a fun party time with your homies.

No, I'm not suggesting people do things that are against their ethics, I just don't like this trend of not doing work because of personal beliefs. We have to balance our needs, wants, and wishes with those of others, and it needs to fit into reality.

There's always someone who will take that job! And actually do it!

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I've done some crazy tasks at jobs. Once I had to go find movies featuring males alone in privacy masturbating, and make a video looping those scenes together. Another time I got to explain to an elderly mother that her 40 year old son had the right to buy Playboy. I've changed menstrual pads for goodness sake! I've had to explain everything from decomposition processes of roadkill to the discontinued use of ether in surgery to why it's not okay to hump one's peers to why books exist to why I can't physically move the drive-thru closer to your effing car. Work is work! It's not just a fun party time with your homies.

No, I'm not suggesting people do things that are against their ethics, I just don't like this trend of not doing work because of personal beliefs. We have to balance our needs, wants, and wishes with those of others, and it needs to fit into reality.

There's always someone who will take that job! And actually do it!

Let me guess... you're a nun?

Sent from my KFJWI using Tapatalk

 

[flourish]

Let me guess... you're a nun?

Sent from my KFJWI using Tapatalk

Lol. No, I've just taken care of a lot of people with very diverse needs and abilities. And lived where the job market isn't great.

 

[jjenny]

If she can not do certain tasks required for the job, maybe it's time to find another job.

 

[gitana1]

I was hoping you would stop by and weigh in on this debate, Gitana! :seeya:

I'm more concerned with "undue burden". I don't see what position a flight attendant can have that doesn't involve waiting on passengers and serving them the beverages of their choice. I don't know of any flight attendant "desk jobs".

Here's info on what constitutes an undue burden that can outweigh accomodations of an employer's religious beliefs:

"An accommodation will be deemed an undue hardship if it substantially harms the morale of other employees, reduces efficiency in other jobs, infringes on the rights of other workers, creates safety concerns, or requires coworkers to take on extra work that is burdensome or hazardous, for example."

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/reasonable-accommodation-religious-beliefs.html

In this case, there are narrow aisles, unhappy passengers and time schedules. It is an undue burden to shift the work of one employee onto another. And not that workable under the conditions at play.

 

[human]

Re what is important in a religion.

My SIL belongs to a made up Christian religion.

She was complaining that her adult son got a tatoo because the Bible forbids it.

I tokd her that she should be happy that he was not a killer.

Nope. To my SIL, tattoo and murderer are equal.

Soooooo....

I agree. Get a job that fits your values, but do not impose your stuff on anyone else.

 

[Donjeta]

I was on a flight a few months ago where they served us from two carts and the flight attendant who was pushing the first cart told some passenger who wanted beer to wait for the second cart because that's where the beer was. If it's a well staffed flight it might be possible to divide the tasks something like that, I serve coffee, tea and sandwiches, you serve chocolate and alcohol?

But IIRC both attendants (there were more on the flight but I only talked to the two) took things from both carts when they were close enough so it probably wasn't any sort of refusal arrangement, just cart logistics.

 

[flourish]

The Muslim religion is much more strict than the majority of other religions in the US. For instance, women are not even suppose to work along side of men. Do all Muslims that live in the US adhere to everyone of these principles? Of course not. Nor, do all members of other faiths adhere to all the principles of the religion of their choice.

This is why, in the workplace in a diverse society we cannot accommodate everyone's beliefs or demands, no matter what religion they associate themselves with.

Yesterday on the "clerk" thread, I presented a hypothetical situation in which a company had 300 employees who all held different religious based beliefs. Some of those beliefs contradicting others. I was attempting to illustrate the bigger picture of what could happen if said company attempted to make exceptions for each individual. Or, if said company had to deal with many lawsuits filed by individuals wanting exclusions from performing their job duties based on their religion.

Meeting the demands of so many in a diverse society could significantly impact production, profits and lead to bankruptcy or a company packing up and moving elsewhere.

I think employees should have to sign a contract which lists a complete job description and agree that they are willing to perform every aspect of the job when they are hired. If at anytime, they refuse to perform their job duties for any reason other than disability, the company has the right to terminate their employment.

A disability is not a choice, but religious affiliation is in this country as well as the choice of how strictly one is going to adhere to their religion is a choice.

If a person holds a job and then makes the "choice" to change religions and will no longer perform their job duties, then they would clearly need to resign unless the company chooses to keep the employee and make reasonable accommodations for the employee.

The gap here though, where I think the reasonable accommodations would still become a legal factor, is if a company changes policy after the employee is hired. Say for instance, this airline didn't serve alcohol and now does.

In the case of the clerk and others that take a constitutional oath to adhere to the laws of our country, IMO it shouldn't matter whether those laws are past or present. They legally should have to abide by the law over their religious convictions.

I've almost always had to sign a job description at hire. And it usually includes the lovely "other duties as assigned" loophole.

 

[bluesneakers]

Re what is important in a religion.

My SIL belongs to a made up Christian religion.

She was complaining that her adult son got a tatoo because the Bible forbids it.

I tokd her that she should be happy that he was not a killer.

Nope. To my SIL, tattoo and murderer are equal.

Soooooo....

I agree. Get a job that fits your values, but do not impose your stuff on anyone else.

Attaching religion to values is part of the problem, I think. I wouldn't apply for a job that didn't mesh with my values but I don't have a religion to support me. Like I'm a vegan and wouldn't work at a chicken ranch but I think that's on me and me alone. If it were my religion then I'm part of a group, I guess, and can expect to be accommodated.

Anyway, I feel the same way. Find work that fulfills you and matches up with your values and don't expect your employer to make unreasonable exceptions for you.

 

[zwiebel]

Are sandwiches and meals served on these flights too? I'm interested because so often on flights, ham or pork is served in one form or another, yet there's no mention of a refusal to serve food? I'd have thought such a strict adherence to Islam would forbid the handling/serving of any pork products too?

 

[flourish]

Attaching religion to values is part of the problem, I think. I wouldn't apply for a job that didn't mesh with my values but I don't have a religion to support me. Like I'm a vegan and wouldn't work at a chicken ranch but I think that's on me and me alone. If it were my religion then I'm part of a group, I guess, and can expect to be accommodated.

Anyway, I feel the same way. Find work that fulfills you and matches up with your values and don't expect your employer to make unreasonable exceptions for you.

I used to be on the hiring panel at a group home for adults with developmental disabilities. I live in an area where there are lots of vegans and vegetarians (don't get me started on pescatarians). Several times applicants would explain, during the interview, that they didn't eat meat/animal products/things with faces but fish don't count and weren't comfortable preparing it. I appreciated the honesty and could actually accommodate it! It's the change-partway-through-the-game folks that left me peeved.


On a not really related note....a few years back I took a university course where we were required to do one huge group project. Of course, my group started out with three people instead of four, because that's my luck to be uneven numbered. However one of people dropped the class. Instead of absorbing us into another group, we were supposed to just pick up the slack. So it's time to split up research. It's then that the remaining person announces to me, as though it's nothing, that because she's a registered sex offender she can't go to the library or use the Internet!!! Teacher STILL wouldn't budge on the requirements, so I ended up doing the entire project myself, and writing a very long teacher review.

 

[zwiebel]

I used to be on the hiring panel at a group home for adults with developmental disabilities. I live in an area where there are lots of vegans and vegetarians (don't get me started on pescatarians). Several times applicants would explain, during the interview, that they didn't eat meat/animal products/things with faces but fish don't count and weren't comfortable preparing it. I appreciated the honesty and could actually accommodate it! It's the change-partway-through-the-game folks that left me peeved.


On a not really related note....a few years back I took a university course where we were required to do one huge group project. Of course, my group started out with three people instead of four, because that's my luck to be uneven numbered. However one of people dropped the class. Instead of absorbing us into another group, we were supposed to just pick up the slack. So it's time to split up research. It's then that the remaining person announces to me, as though it's nothing, that because she's a registered sex offender she can't go to the library or use the Internet!!! Teacher STILL wouldn't budge on the requirements, so I ended up doing the entire project myself, and writing a very long teacher review.

Wow. Never knew sex offenders could get banned from using libraries too. Do you know why?

 

[flourish]

Wow. Never knew sex offenders could get banned from using libraries too. Do you know why?

She said it was part of her restrictions. She apparently procured a minor for her husband. She seemed cognitively impaired, so it's possible she didn't understand, or maybe she was lying to get out of the work, but regardless I really think the professor should have addressed it.

 

[SophieRose]

According to this article it was in June that Stanley brought up the issue that she couldn't serve drinks. Then on Aug 2 another employee filed a complaint against Stanley claiming she wasn't fulfilling her duties as a flight attendant. So the arrangement didn't work out for very long.

And CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations), who filed the complaint, also adds:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...attendant-complaint-serving-alcohol/71535692/

Masri said the other employee’s complaint had “Islamophobic” overtones, stating Stanley had a book with “foreign writings” and noting she wore an Islamic head scarf.

Three weeks later, ExpressJet wrote to Stanley to say it was revoking its religious accommodation and placing her on unpaid, administrative leave for a year, after which an employee may be terminated, according to the EEOC complaint.

“They did state that the reason they were placing her on administrative leave was because of her refusal to serve alcohol, and that they no longer considered it to be a reasonable request,” Masri said.

 

[gitana1]

Wow. Never knew sex offenders could get banned from using libraries too. Do you know why?

They can't be where children congregate. Schools, playgrounds, parks and libraries.

 

[flourish]

According to this article it was in June that Stanley brought up the issue that she couldn't serve drinks. Then on Aug 2 another employee filed a complaint against Stanley claiming she wasn't fulfilling her duties as a flight attendant. So the arrangement didn't work out for very long.

And CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations), who filed the complaint, also adds:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...attendant-complaint-serving-alcohol/71535692/

Masri said the other employee’s complaint had “Islamophobic” overtones, stating Stanley had a book with “foreign writings” and noting she wore an Islamic head scarf.

Three weeks later, ExpressJet wrote to Stanley to say it was revoking its religious accommodation and placing her on unpaid, administrative leave for a year, after which an employee may be terminated, according to the EEOC complaint.

“They did state that the reason they were placing her on administrative leave was because of her refusal to serve alcohol, and that they no longer considered it to be a reasonable request,” Masri said.

I don't understand the problem with the book. Foreign writings? What is this, the communist scare? And did they say what the issue with the head scarf was? Safety or just "comfort of others?"

 

[flourish]

They can't be where children congregate. Schools, playgrounds, parks and libraries.

She said even the university library because so many local youths use it. I don't understand how she thought she could successfully attend college???

 

[Donjeta]

Well if it comes to that, I've got plenty of books with foreign writings.

Did she read her personal books on the flight? That might be a problem but simply being literate and owning a book is not a reason to terminate employment.