MI - Three siblings in juvenile detention for contempt, Pontiac, 9 July 2015

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  • #821
Ummmmm--how do you lock someone in a car?

And the kids called the cops because their mom told them to.

Here are a few examples in addition to, of course, engaging the rear door child locks which means that the back doors can only be opened from the outside of the car:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...amily-sues-bmw-after-teen-dies-locked-n100881
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...s/news-story/7eef88d04dc3214211bd8e51d46bbee0
http://globalnews.ca/news/2166111/w...stigate-after-kid-accidentally-locked-in-car/
http://www.womansday.com/relationsh...oy-in-batman-costume-saves-baby-from-hot-car/
 
  • #822

Only one of your articles deals with non-infants--that is someone capable of opening a door by themselves. And that article refers to a design defect that has since been corrected--couple decades ago. Sooo--possibly the kids could have been placed in the back seat where the child-protective locks would prevent opening the door. Unless they climbed over into the front seat--in which case they could open the doors.

But meanwhile, what was Dad doing? Gambling? Drinking? Flirting with single moms in the park? No--he was dealing with the 3rd sib who was sitting atop a place of playground equipment and refusing to come down. Meanwhile, the kids call Mom who tells them to call 911. Personally--I consider that over the top.
 
  • #823
.........

Apparently the prosecutor, who was a witness to the children's group tantrum when the children refused to enter the courtroom, was ready to file neglect charges based on Mom's uninvolvement--not only offering no encouragement to the children to enter the courtroom as required, but also offering no comfort.



How utterly heartbreaking. She didn't even try to comfort them?? If one takes what she says at face value, she was 100% aware they would be terrified and very distraught going into court. She stood by and just watched, abandoned them when they were most in need of her?

Actions speak louder than words. Compare that callousness (best case) to the father's behavior towards his kids witnessed by an always present monitor. A child who screams and cries nonstop, who begs for her mother to come get her, and what is his response?

Did he become frustrated or irritated or defensive? Perhaps need to walk away for a few minutes to calm himself down? No.

Did he invalidate her feelings in any way, by telling her she was overreacting, that there was no reason why she should be so upset? No.

He continually tried to comfort her. He clearly understood that her feelings were more important than his own in that situation. He acted like a good parent.
 
  • #824
How utterly heartbreaking. She didn't even try to comfort them?? If one takes what she says at face value, she was 100% aware they would be terrified and very distraught going into court. She stood by and just watched, abandoned them when they were most in need of her?

Actions speak louder than words. Compare that callousness (best case) to the father's behavior towards his kids witnessed by an always present monitor. A child who screams and cries nonstop, who begs for her mother to come get her, and what is his response?

Did he become frustrated or irritated or defensive? Perhaps need to walk away for a few minutes to calm himself down? No.

Did he invalidate her feelings in any way, by telling her she was overreacting, that there was no reason why she should be so upset? No.

He continually tried to comfort her. He clearly understood that her feelings were more important than his own in that situation. He acted like a good parent.

The reality is that we have seen very little of Dad throughout--and must infer from actions (such as the tenacity of coming back time and again to be with the children, playing along with multiple attempts to do things Mom's way--fitting into the kids' schedule of lessons and activities, doing more "fun" things; not to mention timely and consistent payment of child support; and at the end of the day proposing camp as an alternative to the protective placement) that he is in fact very committed to his role as a parent. But, we have these snippets--such as the accounts of the parenting supervisor--in which he sets aside his own pain in confronting a rejecting child and is both affirming of the child's pain and very gentle. When I see that, I surmise that during this long journey, he has not only read up on the existence of parental alienation, but also sought out appropriate means of response.

There has been a lot of focus on the five-day program, and whether or not it "worked" or could work. To my mind, all that can truly be expected there is to get all of the parties into the same room and open some conversations. It is a beginning, not an end. The truly difficult work is what they are facing now, which is to go on about the always stressful activities of child-rearing while building upon a new set of understandings.

What Team Mom seems to be incapable of understanding is that these kids still need her--but they need for her to be able to support the change in relationship to their father. Clearly she has shown herself in the past to lack in the ability to do so. The fact that her energies at present seem to be be devoted to fighting against the judge--and not embracing the help she needs to move forward--is very sad.
 
  • #825
Father who constantly tried? While he was living in another country for years? From what I can gather, he expected that when he showed up for visits back in US, they should be happy to see him. And they weren't.
It was his choice to accept a job in Israel even though his wife at that time didn't want to move back there. What was more important to him? His job or his children? This whole "parental alienation syndrome" sounds to me like a whole bunch of baloney.
 
  • #826
To clarify since I can no longer edit my post- I meant separate the children from each other, not talking about them being away from the mother, although that would be as well.

So in your opinion, they should be separated from each other and their mother in order to what? Develop a relationship with their father? How is in the best interest of the children to not have relationships with each other?
 
  • #827
So in your opinion, they should be separated from each other and their mother in order to what? Develop a relationship with their father? How is in the best interest of the children to not have relationships with each other? Why don't we lock them up in wooden boxes under the beds while we are at it, so they can develop Stockholm syndrome.


Isn't it possible to take as a starting point for discussion that :

1. The kids' welfare and well being comes first, and trumps any and all parental "rights"?

2. That this is a very ugly case arising out of a bad marriage and then a bitter divorce?

3. That there are few objective truths to be found in any situation like this, and that we the public are not privy to enough information to do anything other than speculate?

4. That nobody posting here thinks an abusive father is entitled to custody of his kids?

5. That it is an extremely sad situation, and that any outcome is going to cause significant pain?

6. That having a judge make decisions for the family and children is undesirable, but unavoidable given the degree of conflict, distrust, and antagonism between parents?

Can that much be agreed upon?
 
  • #828
Father who constantly tried? While he was living in another country for years? From what I can gather, he expected that when he showed up for visits back in US, they should be happy to see him. And they weren't.
It was his choice to accept a job in Israel even though his wife at that time didn't want to move back there. What was more important to him? His job or his children? This whole "parental alienation syndrome" sounds to me like a whole bunch of baloney.

Actually, being happy to see one's father after an absence might be considered to be within the normal range emotionally and developmentally. So would feelings of abandonment on the part of the children that he was no longer a part of their daily living.

The reality is that most families with average or better functionality are able to work through such changes--which occur frequently, whether due to divorce, or work requirements, or military placements and the like.

What we are seeing in these children is not only that they were not overjoyed to see their father (and your assumption that he expected joyous responses I believe is coming from Mom's camp--I have not heard those indications from Dad or his attorneys), but they had been scheduled to the hilt so as to make any minimal contact ("visitation") difficult, and they lived in a Mom-controlled/provided environment in which Dad's very presence was regarded first as a danger (claim that he was a "flight risk" and wanted to kidnap the children and take them to Israel) and second as a burdensome obligation (requiring multiple communications through attorneys and GAL just to schedule) to someone who is incompetent (Mom's frequent suggestions that not only is he violent, angry and a danger, but also that he cannot even make plans for what to do with the children without her ongoing approval of every detail). Their oft-repeated shunning (as documented by numerous professionals and the parenting supervisor) of their father bespeaks not a fear typically associated with abuse (which does not typically impact attachment--resulting in kids with a tendency to protect their abuser and take on feelings of guilt associated with the abuse), but rather an entitled space in which they demonstrate that they hold an upper hand in relationship to their parent--that in his presence, they are in charge. Recall the tantrum thrown by the second child when he was left with the father in the father's apartment (in the presence of the parenting supervisor). Someone finally set a limit, making it clear to him that he was NOT in charge, and that his mother could not back him up (that is until she trotted him off the the ER to claim abuse).

When children are encouraged to disrespect the authority of a parent, it ultimately carries over into other encounters with authority--as we saw in their courthouse behavior, when they made clear to multiple adults, included Sheriff's Deputies, that they could do what they wanted. And their mother stood by and watched. Frankly, when poor and minority kids show out like that in front of a judge and others, nobody gives a second thought to them being removed from their parents and placed in detention. And they don't get a pass just because they have good grades.

A divorced father ought not have to place his career on hold and change the location of his residence in order to have a relationship with his children. The fact that this one was willing to do so--following years of trying lots of other things--and go the extra mile of requesting full custody speaks not only to his own sense of responsibility, but also to his ultimate assessment of what his ex-wife is capable of.
 
  • #829
Isn't it possible to take as a starting point for discussion that :

1. The kids' welfare and well being comes first, and trumps any and all parental "rights"?

2. That this is a very ugly case arising out of a bad marriage and then a bitter divorce?

3. That there are few objective truths to be found in any situation like this, and that we the public are not privy to enough information to do anything other than speculate?

4. That nobody posting here thinks an abusive father is entitled to custody of his kids?

5. That it is an extremely sad situation, and that any outcome is going to cause significant pain?

6. That having a judge make decisions for the family and children is undesirable, but unavoidable given the degree of conflict, distrust, and antagonism between parents?

Can that much be agreed upon?

Can we agree that the father's pain should be the least important consideration? He seemed to tolerate separation from his children very well for many years.
 
  • #830
Can we agree that the father's pain should be the least important consideration? He seemed to tolerate separation from his children very well for many years.



Can we agree that one parent's pain is more meaningful or important than the other's? No. Really not. In fact I think that a large part of what fuels the parental alienation debate here there and everywhere is that most seem to reflexively side with one parent or the other, and nothing else after that is seen with a neutral perspective.

My immediate inclination is to feel empathy for the dad because as a parent I can't imagine anything more excruciatingly painful than having my own child be afraid to even be with me. I think I literally couldn't bear it. So that's my bias and I'm aware of it..


I'd like to have a real discussion about what happens in situations like this, the challenges for the kids involved, and for each parent.
That's a discussion worth having, and why I laid out points I would think everyone could agree upon.

I'm not interested in a blame the dad or curse the mom conversation, not least because it has nothing to do with discussing what's best for the kids NOW, at least theoretically since none of us have the info to know.
 
  • #831
Actually, being happy to see one's father after an absence might be considered to be within the normal range emotionally and developmentally. So would feelings of abandonment on the part of the children that he was no longer a part of their daily living.

The reality is that most families with average or better functionality are able to work through such changes--which occur frequently, whether due to divorce, or work requirements, or military placements and the like.

What we are seeing in these children is not only that they were not overjoyed to see their father (and your assumption that he expected joyous responses I believe is coming from Mom's camp--I have not heard those indications from Dad or his attorneys), but they had been scheduled to the hilt so as to make any minimal contact ("visitation") difficult, and they lived in a Mom-controlled/provided environment in which Dad's very presence was regarded first as a danger (claim that he was a "flight risk" and wanted to kidnap the children and take them to Israel) and second as a burdensome obligation (requiring multiple communications through attorneys and GAL just to schedule) to someone who is incompetent (Mom's frequent suggestions that not only is he violent, angry and a danger, but also that he cannot even make plans for what to do with the children without her ongoing approval of every detail). Their oft-repeated shunning (as documented by numerous professionals and the parenting supervisor) of their father bespeaks not a fear typically associated with abuse (which does not typically impact attachment--resulting in kids with a tendency to protect their abuser and take on feelings of guilt associated with the abuse), but rather an entitled space in which they demonstrate that they hold an upper hand in relationship to their parent--that in his presence, they are in charge. Recall the tantrum thrown by the second child when he was left with the father in the father's apartment (in the presence of the parenting supervisor). Someone finally set a limit, making it clear to him that he was NOT in charge, and that his mother could not back him up (that is until she trotted him off the the ER to claim abuse).

When children are encouraged to disrespect the authority of a parent, it ultimately carries over into other encounters with authority--as we saw in their courthouse behavior, when they made clear to multiple adults, included Sheriff's Deputies, that they could do what they wanted. And their mother stood by and watched. Frankly, when poor and minority kids show out like that in front of a judge and others, nobody gives a second thought to them being removed from their parents and placed in detention. And they don't get a pass just because they have good grades.

A divorced father ought not have to place his career on hold and change the location of his residence in order to have a relationship with his children. The fact that this one was willing to do so--following years of trying lots of other things--and go the extra mile of requesting full custody speaks not only to his own sense of responsibility, but also to his ultimate assessment of what his ex-wife is capable of.


Here's an example of a child-led dynamic and consequences.


Many years ago I had a roommate who was a recently divorced father of a 8-9 year son. Mom had full custody, lived several states away, and they had an agreement the son would spent summers with dad and that was it.

Both worked full time as professionals in very competitive fields, both were more absorbed in their careers than in raising their son, separately or together.

So the son came to live in a household with 3 adults, all of us sharing a happy enough roommate kind of friendship/coexistence. Within a week he was having full scale angry meltdowns. As in, one night he was angry with his dad, but came after ME with a chair. He hit me with it twice - hard whacks- before I could gather my wits and realize his father was standing there watching, not intervening.

The dad's response? To tell him- "well (son), you know that wasn't very nice. Say you're sorry."

(NO!!!!!!! I won't!!!!!!!).

" Well OK, I know you must be. Why don't you just go play outside for awhile? " Like that. Really.

Two weeks later of multiple out of control incidents came this day. His son had a a runny nose, ordered his dad to give him a tissue, and I do mean ordered, and his dad ran to get a box.

His son pulled out a few tissues, blew his nose, then threw the snot covered tissues on the floor, right at his dad's feet. And told his dad--- pick them up. Now.

And his father DID.

I avoided the son as much as I could after that. I'm appalled and shocked to this day, decades later, by what I saw that day.

But I've always been more saddened than appalled because of what happened next.

His father had to work one weekend and begged me to look after his son, which I did. Within minutes of his father leaving this little boy ran out the front door, circled around to the back, came running through the patio doors back into the house past me near the door, yelled to me, ran that whole circle again, yelling to me as he passed, over and over.

What was he yelling? " I hate myself!!!!" and "I am a very very bad person."

He was out of control, pushing and pushing and begging for boundaries, none to be had. He was denied a childhood, that holy precious too brief time when he had a right to feel protected by his parents, secure with them, but always the child. Not an equal, much less responsible for any decision larger than potatoes or French fries, milk or juice.
 
  • #832
Can we agree that one parent's pain is more meaningful or important than the other's? No. Really not. In fact I think that a large part of what fuels the parental alienation debate here there and everywhere is that most seem to reflexively side with one parent or the other, and nothing else after that is seen with a neutral perspective.

My immediate inclination is to feel empathy for the dad because as a parent I can't imagine anything more excruciatingly painful than having my own child be afraid to even be with me. I think I literally couldn't bear it. So that's my bias and I'm aware of it..


I'd like to have a real discussion about what happens in situations like this, the challenges for the kids involved, and for each parent.
That's a discussion worth having, and why I laid out points I would think everyone could agree upon.

I'm not interested in a blame the dad or curse the mom conversation, not least because it has nothing to do with discussing what's best for the kids NOW, at least theoretically since none of us have the info to know.

I think we also need to consider, if not agree, that every kid who throws a tantrum does not necessarily know what is best for them. Young kids get upset, and act hateful in the process of advocating for lots of things that we as adults know are not in their best interest--such as handfuls of candy from the grocery store or staying up past bedtime.

One of the incredibly harmful outcomes associated with an alienating atmosphere is to grant children the illusion of a choice over things over which they in fact have no control. The reality is that nobody gets to choose their parents. Setting kids up with a choice between parents (a false choice) is incredibly harmful and a source of stress.

Clearly many things that ought to have been handled matter of factly long ago ("your father is going to be in town and he wants to see you--so he's picking you up on Saturday," or "we are going to see this counselor who can help you with any of the feelings you might have since Daddy and I aren't together any more," or "I know it is hard for you when your father has to leave so often, so this counselor is going to help you and your father talk about things like that."), were instead built up into major scenes--always being blamed on what the children wanted.

Long-term we know that kids forced into such false-choice situations live with internal conflict--particularly if they are the same gender as the parent on the outs. Half of who they are comes from that parent, who they believe they must view negatively in order to show allegiance to the parent in a dominant position. Leads to a rejection (and at times hatred) of portions of themselves. It is not a healthy situation.
 
  • #833
Here's an example of a child-led dynamic and consequences.


Many years ago I had a roommate who was a recently divorced father of a 8-9 year son. Mom had full custody, lived several states away, and they had an agreement the son would spent summers with dad and that was it.

Both worked full time as professionals in very competitive fields, both were more absorbed in their careers than in raising their son, separately or together.

So the son came to live in a household with 3 adults, all of us sharing a happy enough roommate kind of friendship/coexistence. Within a week he was having full scale angry meltdowns. As in, one night he was angry with his dad, but came after ME with a chair. He hit me with it twice - hard whacks- before I could gather my wits and realize his father was standing there watching, not intervening.

The dad's response? To tell him- "well (son), you know that wasn't very nice. Say you're sorry."

(NO!!!!!!! I won't!!!!!!!).

" Well OK, I know you must be. Why don't you just go play outside for awhile? " Like that. Really.

Two weeks later of multiple out of control incidents came this day. His son had a a runny nose, ordered his dad to give him a tissue, and I do mean ordered, and his dad ran to get a box.

His son pulled out a few tissues, blew his nose, then threw the snot covered tissues on the floor, right at his dad's feet. And told his dad--- pick them up. Now.

And his father DID.

I avoided the son as much as I could after that. I'm appalled and shocked to this day, decades later, by what I saw that day.

But I've always been more saddened than appalled because of what happened next.

His father had to work one weekend and begged me to look after his son, which I did. Within minutes of his father leaving this little boy ran out the front door, circled around to the back, came running through the patio doors back into the house past me near the door, yelled to me, ran that whole circle again, yelling to me as he passed, over and over.

What was he yelling? " I hate myself!!!!" and "I am a very very bad person."

He was out of control, pushing and pushing and begging for boundaries, none to be had. He was denied a childhood, that holy precious too brief time when he had a right to feel protected by his parents, secure with them, but always the child. Not an equal, much less responsible for any decision larger than potatoes or French fries, milk or juice.

Exactly! Children test boundaries because they crave security. When there are no boundaries, their behavior becomes more and more outrageous looking for, begging for, an adult to step up and say, "I am in charge here and I will take care of you."
 
  • #834
“While some of the actions taken by the court may seem extreme, ... the report from the Guardian Ad Litem appointed to represent the children suggests that they were warranted and productive,” Kelly said in a ruling in which he cited case law that says a trial judge is to be presumed fair and impartial and any effort at disqualification bears a heavy burden. ...

“After reviewing the record and considering the arguments advanced, this court finds the Plaintiff (Eibschitz-Tsimhoni) has failed to timely challenge Judge Gorcyca ... and failed to establish the necessary proof of bias or prejudice,” Kelly ruled in denying the request.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...19/oakland-judge-keeps-custody-case/76060012/
 
  • #835
Exactly! Children test boundaries because they crave security. When there are no boundaries, their behavior becomes more and more outrageous looking for, begging for, an adult to step up and say, "I am in charge here and I will take care of you."

Yes.

The coda to that story is that on his 3rd run through I grabbed him, hugged him, and told him- no you are not. I didn't have a right to say more than that and didn't.

Years later, coincidence had it that we ran into each other in a store. I was amazed, in all honesty, to see and to hear from him that he had turned out OK, that he seemed to be happy and well grounded. I was just as amazed that after establishing yes I am she, yes I was that little boy, the first thing he did was to give me a huge hug.

Kids are so, so resilient, up to a point. Past that all bets are off. May these 3 kids not have reached that point yet, somehow.
 
  • #836
Yes.

The coda to that story is that on his 3rd run through I grabbed him, hugged him, and told him- no you are not. I didn't have a right to say more than that and didn't.

Years later, coincidence had it that we ran into each other in a store. I was amazed, in all honesty, to see and to hear from him that he had turned out OK, that he seemed to be happy and well grounded. I was just as amazed that after establishing yes I am she, yes I was that little boy, the first thing he did was to give me a huge hug.

Kids are so, so resilient, up to a point. Past that all bets are off. May these 3 kids not have reached that point yet, somehow.


ETA- Margo, the link you just provided is broken.

Huh--I just clicked on the link and it worked.
 
  • #837
  • #838
Eventually, kids are going to turn 18. After which nobody can force them to interact with their father.
I wonder if the older boy at least doesn't have to wait until he turns 18. Maybe he can ask to be emancipated.
 
  • #839
Eventually, kids are going to turn 18. After which nobody can force them to interact with their father.
I wonder if the older boy at least doesn't have to wait until he turns 18. Maybe he can ask to be emancipated.

Most states don't emancipate minors any more. And if they do, it is usually related to extreme circumstances--such as marriage or entry into the military, or loss of family of origin. I don't think the 14 year old is ready to become self-supporting.
 
  • #840
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