MI - Three siblings in juvenile detention for contempt, Pontiac, 9 July 2015

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  • #181
As long as they pay court-ordered child support having nothing to do with a child is perfectly legal but I personally don't know any parent, male or female, who wants nothing to do with their child.

JMO

Oh, they're out there. My own father walked out the door telling me he would be back to pick up my brother and sister and I for the weekend. The next time I saw him was over 2 years later when I accidentally ran into him on the street. He lived about 15-20 minutes from us (but I was 9 and 5 miles was farther than I was allowed to bike).

When he died last month, he'd had no contact with any of his children for almost 25 years. He paid not a dime of child support to either ex from the time I was 18 (age of majority was 21 then) and his other children were still 12, 10 and 6.

(And though my mother has her faults, she largely refrained from speaking ill of my father and always insisted we obey the court's custody arrangements in later years when Dad's second wife finally started visitations. I have wonderful aunts, uncles and grandparents, so I'm not crying a river here. I'm just saying some people have very little interest in seeing their children. Frankly, and though she never abandoned us, my mother is happier with her nose in a book than spending time with her kids and grandkids.)
 
  • #182
BBM. I have no clue where you even get this impression. The father does not have the ability to manipulate a judge or the GAL. Both of the two younger children preferred "jail" with their older brother to returning to their home with their mother. A significant detail you seem to conveniently overlook. JMO

The choice was lunch or jail. Going home was not a choice.
 
  • #183
Charges never filed? Well, that proves it right then and there.

Yep! No charges ever filed on Cosby either. All those women must be liars.
 
  • #184
The maturity level of kids who have been alienated is irrelevant. It is like the mindset of cult members. You know, each child has been represented by counsel. They have a GAL. They also have had numerous therapists. So don't you think the judge has info about what has been going on in this case for five years? Are you saying she is lying when she says this is tied for the worst parental alienation case she's ever seen?

I don't think it's coincidence that the two lawyers on here are not shocked by the judge's actions in this case. If there wasn't strong evidence of alienation she would be removed as judge.


She should be removed as a judge. Her language toward the children was unhealthy and unprofessional. IMO, the father was given Solomon's Choice and he chose to cut the baby in half. It takes two to make a contentious divorce last years. Someone has to have the children's best interest and I don't believe the children are being well served by this judge or their father.
 
  • #185
He did try get custody. His problem is that he seems to work in Israel and spend a lot of time there. Actually I've seen articles that state he lives in Israel (while some others claim he lives in US). Regardless, he seems to spend a lot of time in Israel. So he wanted kids to be moved to Israel but was denied. I don't know what kind of relationship he had with the children before the divorce, but I think the relationship since the divorce wasn't good. The kids have been "alienated" for many years now.

IMO, this is not a man who puts his children first. Everything about this case stinks to me. And I don't think it's clear or proven that the mother is the only one to blame for the children not wanting to see their father. And, lastly, this judge needs to be moved to another profession.
 
  • #186
With all due respect jjenny - what is your solution to this situation?

I see you are defending prior and current actions of the mother and children - to what end though? What is your resolution?

Fwiw - initially (and still do) object to some of the statements by the judge at the last hearing - until the 2 verified lawyers weighed in and explained not only this case but other similar cases. I have better insight thanks to them albeit not sure why the judge took so long to act. Jmo.

What should happen now? The horse seems to be dead already - my interest is in future cases and sensible opinions/suggestions to a resolution. History is just that - gone.

Look forward to a better resolution not taken by the judge to date.

I think when a 15-year old says he doesn't want to see one parent, that the court should take note and not treat the teenager like a piece of furniture. That's what this judge is doing… treating children like furniture and apparently she likes to kick the furniture.
 
  • #187
Any competent attorney's goal should be to represent their client, regardless of the judge's interpretation of the case. When I read the court record, it was clear that none of the childrens' attorney's cared about what was in the best interest of their child client(s) - if they had, they would have objected to some of the judge's comments - if for no other reason than to have their objections preserved in the court record.

No judge has the right to run roughshod over a court proceeding. IMO, this is exactly what Judge Gorcyca did when she verbally abused the minors who were in her court when she accused them of being in a "Manson-like Cult" and when she berated them for being "brainwashed" and she said "you are so mentally messed up right now and it's not because of your father".

As far as I'm concerned, this judge is mentally "messed up right now".

IMO, she has no business presiding over any Family Court matters.


I agree. The only "crazy" person so far in this case is the judge. She's needs a long vacation, and some career counseling.
 
  • #188
That's your opinion and I disagree. I think her job is safe.

JMO

If this is the level of compassion and professionalism required of a family court judge then our children are screwed.
 
  • #189
....I'll bet every single one of us knows at least one father who never sees his children despite having visitation rights. He can just walk right out of his child's life without ever fearing being put in jail for refusing to have lunch with them. (And the same goes for mothers who totally refuse to have a relationship with their children.) How about jail time for self-alienated parents?

And mothers. Mothers do it too. It blows my mind that people who claim to have great knowledge of child custody are unaware of how many absentee parents exist because they simply weren't cut out to be parents and/or have little to no interest in their own children.
 
  • #190
Oh I assure you, the court can order that relationship to exist.

This article says otherwise.

Teenagers, on the other hand, present a whole different set of considerations. You cannot physically force a fifteen-year-old boy to visit with his father if he doesn't want to. Threatening your teen with punishment or restricting his freedom is not likely to get what you want in this circumstance, either. The hard truth is that a teenager most likely would rather be with his friends than with you or your ex, and there is nothing exciting for your teen about spending a weekend with dad, away from home and those friends. Perhaps in recognition of this fact, the courts largely tend to hold the teenagers responsible for their behavior with respect to visitation, not the custodial parent. Because the custodial parent typically cannot make a teenager visit as ordered, then the court is unlikely to find the parent in contempt of court for failing to comply with the visitation order. Unfortunately, this leaves the non-custodial parent of a rebellious teenager largely without a remedy for enforcing his visitation order.

What if My Child Doesn't Want to Visit with His or Her Other Parent?
 
  • #191
If the mother was court-ordered to make the children available for a visitation with the father and the children did not go - for whatever reason - it should be her held in contempt, not the children.

But it is the children who are in contempt, not the mother. The mother is on the record as saying that she wants the children to see their father. It is the children deciding not to visit the father. Do you really think that the judge (as crazy as she is) would hold the children in contempt for their mother's decision? The judge didn't hold the mother in contempt, because she doesn't have a case against the her.
 
  • #192
Oh, they're out there. My own father walked out the door telling me he would be back to pick up my brother and sister and I for the weekend. The next time I saw him was over 2 years later when I accidentally ran into him on the street. He lived about 15-20 minutes from us (but I was 9 and 5 miles was farther than I was allowed to bike).

When he died last month, he'd had no contact with any of his children for almost 25 years. He paid not a dime of child support to either ex from the time I was 18 (age of majority was 21 then) and his other children were still 12, 10 and 6.

(And though my mother has her faults, she largely refrained from speaking ill of my father and always insisted we obey the court's custody arrangements in later years when Dad's second wife finally started visitations. I have wonderful aunts, uncles and grandparents, so I'm not crying a river here. I'm just saying some people have very little interest in seeing their children. Frankly, and though she never abandoned us, my mother is happier with her nose in a book than spending time with her kids and grandkids.)

I'm sorry you went through that. As I noted, I don't personally know any parent who has intentionally abandoned their children. And in this case the father clearly has attempted to see and play a role in his children's lives and it is the mother who has engaged in parental alienation.

JMO
 
  • #193
But it is the children who are in contempt, not the mother. The mother is on the record as saying that she wants the children to see their father. It is the children deciding not to visit the father. Do you really think that the judge (as crazy as she is) would hold the children in contempt for their mother's decision? The judge didn't hold the mother in contempt, because she doesn't have a case against the her.

In cases of parental alienation, it takes years of toxic brainwashing of the child for the effects to show up in the child's behavior toward the other parent. I agree with the experts who consider such alienating tactics a form of child abuse.

JMO
 
  • #194
  • #195
In cases of parental alienation, it takes years of toxic brainwashing of the child for the effects to show up in the child's behavior toward the other parent. I agree with the experts who consider such alienating tactics a form of child abuse.

JMO

In 2010 the children already accused their father of threatening to kill them. And ever since they don't seem to want to have anything to do with him.
 
  • #196
Maybe, before awarding him custody (as some people here suggested judge should do) judge should ask his new wife (with a small child) if she wants to raise his 3 children from the previous marriage that want nothing to do with him.

Thats's why I think the father is more messed up then the mother. He has a new life in Israel, a new wife, a newly born baby. His ex-wife hates his guts. His three kids by her, hate him and never want to see him again. Whatever the reason all this happened, why doesn't he just let it go?

He seems to have a vindictive against them. To the point he would rather see the kids in jail, then with his ex. :facepalm:Thats just really bad.
 
  • #197
IMO, this is not a man who puts his children first. Everything about this case stinks to me. And I don't think it's clear or proven that the mother is the only one to blame for the children not wanting to see their father. And, lastly, this judge needs to be moved to another profession.

Seems to me that so-called "parental alienation syndrome" allows judges to ignore claims of abuse (some of which might be legit), because devious mothers alienate children from their wonderful fathers.
 
  • #198
One of the many non-custodial parents who couldn't give a rat's a$$ about their children was my uncle. He molested me when I was 11 years old. Thank heavens he wasn't "interested" in having a "relationship" with his own children. I am absolutely amazed that there are so-called child advocates in existence who are completely unaware that when a child says they want nothing to do with a person, there is probably a really really good reason they don't want to be around that person. Thank heavens no one ever insisted I spend any time with my uncle who I avoided for very good reason.

ETA: I found out years later that he raped his sister, my aunt, repeatedly when they were growing up. She was unfortunate that she shared a house with him. I was lucky; I didn't.
 
  • #199
This case isn't about divorce, it is about child custody and I don't know of any state that doesn't require a judge to prioritize the best interest of the child above all else.

JMO

And you think that separating them from their mother whom they obviously love and want to be with, and sending them to jail, is in their best interest?
 
  • #200
And you think that separating them from their mother whom they obviously love and want to be with, and sending them to jail, is in their best interest?

The children were never in "jail."

I think the mother is toxic and unstable.

JMO
 
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