Michelle Young, pregnant mom, murdered Part 15.

[strach304]

Jilly, you make some very good points but since the therapist sessions were close in proximity to the time she was killed we don't know if she was advised to go to LE with threats or suspicions of other things (will, accident) possible one time violent episode, etc. and she didn't get the chance of doing anything formal before her murder. Her decision also could have been divorce in the scenario that you have all these other problems and then she found out about the affair but she's the one in therapy? That would be one heck of a slap in the face but sudden realization that she wasn't the problem so to speak and no amount of therapy was gonna fix that so a logical conclusion of divorce was made. I still wonder about a catalyst for that night that set things in motion that caused a heated fight between the two but there are good arguments also for premeditation given Jason knew her plans to divorce him and this is how he chose to settle it.

 

[scandi]

Hi Strach, You take care honey. If your meds makes you sleepy it could be your body needs some good sleep!

I've thought a lot about Michelle's situation, and I always stumble over the fact that a threat or fear of dangerous repurcussions on her if she were to take an action like filing for divorce or asking him to leave, can't be remedied by LE at that point. Not until there is an overt action of harm on his part I believe. If he had a record or there was a history of DV it might be different, but I don't think there was. LE would tell her to file a restraining order, but like I have said before, what good does that do when he is suddenly there, won't let you use the phone and then has his fingers on your neck!

Was that gobbltegook I read at CTV that JY was a felon?

I think the therapist told her to go about her plan in an organized way and start by giving him a specific date to start moving his things out of the house. I do believe that Thursday was the day as he supposedly left with 'baggage', and believe Michelle chose that date hurredly as he was getting more verbally abusive to her by the day. Once that cycle starts it only escalates from what I've seen.

The fact it was the big weekend and friends were coming means nothing to me, as those plans would have been set in place way before. Maybe she told him that Thursday to get out if she had just learned about MM. I think that is what happened. That was major.

And something else I read at CTV tonight was there could have been some changing of documents by JY that she learned about {will or insurance policies} and if she had told him she was going to file for divorce which prompted his trying to change things, it could have speeded up the day she wanted him to leave.

What if he used the library computer to access these documents and make changes he wanted? Could the law office who wrote the docs, or insurance agent get notice they had been pulled up on line and were fanageled with? I don't know. Wouldn't he have to use a password to get into the docs? And that might alert someone the docs were being reviewed. Michelle could have had a call informing her of this. If he did this on the home computer, she might have come across it if she was searching for things to use in the divorce as we have talked about before.

I don't know, but like Sami's link stated, the reason for a judge to make a decision like he did had to be that there was the possibility someone was in danger to decide to go to a therapist. I'm going to have to go back and try and find that link! LOL

Sorry this got so long. Back to bed!

 

[Whimsigal]

Scandi,

You asked if that was gobbledegook that you read about JY being a felon. If you are referring to the post by someone named Lou Malone at CTV, I believe that post was made in error. I went and looked at all his other posts and they were in a forum call the McGuire Murder. I believe the victim in that case may have also been named Michelle.

Hope you're doing well!!

 

[raisincharlie]

<snip>

The 3 1/2 month lag in time till we heard about this is what tells me they found her. I think she played it conservatively, knowing she could always go to them as they were still investigating. Her reputation could have been paramount to her decision what with past, present and future clients. She maybe was afraid of the liability and loss of clientelle, meaning $$$'s.

I know, I'm pretty cynical. LE should have learned about this right away. It couldn't have taken 3 1/2 months to deal with, could it?

Scandi

Scandi,

I think it is very possible that LE was aware of the therapist very early on however pursuit of this was delayed until critical interviews and leads closer inside were complete. The DA would have been aware that records from said therapist would be difficult to obtain unless a true need existed. Seems to me that after review of interviews and associated data, such as the computer discs etc. the data may have led LE to pursue the therapist based on this data. I suggest the combination of collected data gave reason to pursue the therapist. The result, as we know, was that pursuit was correct in a Superior Court Judge's opinion. I think it was obviously a good pursuit by LE.

 

[raisincharlie]

I think the prints are going to be a tricky situation. Obviously LE would not dust the entire house so there has to be some sort of logic to the collection of the prints. Think the entry and exit points will be key as well as around the master bedroom and bath.

I'm sure that there are open and shut cases with husbands (or wives) that kill spouses. Obviously not a "crime junkie" but must be difficult to prove with dna when a spouse is very careful. You would expect to find their dna all over the house. Has to be in a very obvious place like under the fingernails for example. Seems as though there would be more circumstantial evidence than anything else.

<snip>

Very interesting comment pack fan. I have wanted to believe this was an argument gone bad but I must admit that I am leaning more the other way toward premeditation thanks to the rumblings of the defenders.

Interesting thought, being "very careful" could be inclusive of some very interesting clothing. :clap:

 

[raisincharlie]

In the sense of fairness, seeking theories about the following:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1201054/

"The warrant goes on to say there is some "importance of the events around (the) October-November 2003 time frame when the couple got married," but would not say whether it is significant to the case."


The only things we actually know from print about this time period is that Jason and Michelle were married on 10 October 2003. At that time, JY was co-owner of the Arete Way condo with a fellow by the name of Schaad (ryan - can't remember his first name). And that the condo was later titled to JY in December.

Without reading much into this, is it possible that Mr. Schaad was none too pleased about giving up his half ownership to this condo ? Any thoughts about this character ?


ETA - profiling of JY ?

 

[nanandjim]

I think that the situation that forced Michelle to a professional was one of two things. Either Jason was telling Michelle that she was out of her mind, exaggerating and/or being paranoid about things that were happening (affairs, accidents, searches on the computer) -- or -- Jason was making overt or covert threats to Michelle and also becoming more and more aggressive towards her. Either way, I think that Michelle discussed it with her mother.

I am leaning towards Michelle doing a reality check against a professional to make sure that her reactions to certain situations were normal. What if Jason were doing suspicious searches on the Internet (like Scott Peterson and his tidal searches or Justin Barber and his gunshot wound searches), making ominous comments/threats, being secretive, doing little things to scare her saying that he was just kidding, etc.? Jason could have been playing real mind games with Michelle.

I think that Michelle's gut told her that something wasn't right. I think that she discussed it with her mother and then discussed it with a professional. I bet that her mother told the police everything that Michelle had said, to include information about Michelle seeing a psychologist.

It's more than apparent what would cause the MIL not to like Jason. It had to be that Michelle told her the things that Jason did and said. There would be no other reason for Michelle's mother to have ill will towards her SIL.

 

[jilly]

I wanted to have another look at the article about getting the therapist's records, so here it is for anyone else interested.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1211049/

Quote:

Under North Carolina law, the state can ask a therapist to turn over records and answer questions about therapy sessions if "the disclosure is necessary to a proper administration of justice."

"We have someone who died a violent death, and it appears she sought counseling shortly before that time," Wake County District Attorney Colon Willoughby said. "The closeness in time to her death heightened our interest and we thought it would perhaps provide insights."

Stephens questioned Sargent in his chambers and decided that what she knows is important to the case.

"We felt like we could leave no stone unturned, and this is something that might provide us some insights into who the perpetrator was," Willoughby said.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm sure happy that Michelle went to a therapist. It's obvious to me that Michelle poured her heart out about problems with JY otherwise, I don't think the Judge would have granted the order. Wish we knew what the Therapist added in Chambers and how many sessions Michelle had with her.

 

[nanandjim]

I'm sure happy that Michelle went to a therapist....

The article that you posted says, "Psychologist Michael Teague, who is not involved in the Young case, says confidentiality is paramount for therapists. He says, however, there are rare exceptions.

"I would imagine that the client would have wanted this to come out given the subsequent set of events," Teague said. "I think in this case, it is appropriate when you see a situation like this."

I assume that he is referring to Michelle when he says that he imagines tha the client would have wanted this to come out. I also wonder what it is that is so important to be revealed. You know that it must have a direct link to the murder.

 

[scandi]

Great posts you guys ;}

Jilly, as to how many sessions she had I think we have to look at the word " . .she sought counseling shortly before that time . ." from your link above. It doesn't mention 'sessions', and I think shortly could be a week or two, don't you? Maybe days. She might have only had a one hour session with an appt made to come back for follow up.

Charlie, are you thinking of one of those disposable suits? If it was premeditated that far ahead, and the plan was to strangle her, I think he would expect Cassidy to sleep through that, as it would be pretty silent. I don't think he had any idea how hard it is to strangle someone from what I've read, so Cassidy waking and seeing or hearing enough that happened to talk about daddy did it on the 911 tape was a fluke for him!

That then brings us to wonder if he disposed of his paper suit, and Cassidy had blood on her clothing, did he remember to take it with him when he left, or did he really leave something bloody of hers in the bathroom as the insiders have suggested. We have talked about this before, and your thought was to find out if she was wearing the same clothing when they found her as she had the night before.

I've thought a lot about that. It is one of those things we won't know unless there is a leak. Fat chance, right? lol If socks were left behind, LE would surely take them, right? Even if they were thrown in the hamper. Wouldn't that be something if they missed them. What kind of problems would that cause at trial?

Scandi

 

[scandi]

"I would imagine that the client would have wanted this to come out given the subsequent set of events,"

'What the client would have wanted to come out . .' could be the actual threat he could have made on her life.

Subsequent events could be:

a} Michelle learning about the MM affair, the last straw
b} Argument on phone w/JY, maybe saying she was going to call MM
c} She calls MM and talks till midnight and he can't get through to either party
d} Return to house
e} Murder


Someone mentioned the condo. I read at CTV that Michelle had at one point walked in on him when he was with someone else. Could it have been at the condo around the time they were married? That is if it is true.

Scandi

 

[jilly]

The article that you posted says, "Psychologist Michael Teague, who is not involved in the Young case, says confidentiality is paramount for therapists. He says, however, there are rare exceptions.

"I would imagine that the client would have wanted this to come out given the subsequent set of events," Teague said. "I think in this case, it is appropriate when you see a situation like this."

I assume that he is referring to Michelle when he says that he imagines tha the client would have wanted this to come out. I also wonder what it is that is so important to be revealed. You know that it must have a direct link to the murder.

No I don't know that it must have a direct link to the murder. I think this other psychologist is just speaking in general terms. In other words, the deceased would want LE to go through her life with a fine tooth comb.

I'm still not convinced that there was something so important like a threat. LE figures JY murdered his wife. They're trying to put a profile of this guy and looking for motive and who better to find out about JY than from Michelle herself. I think they may have got a lot of information about him - like someone said, Michelle is able to speak from the grave. The DA himself said, ""We felt like we could leave no stone unturned, and this is something that might provide us some insights into who the perpetrator was".

 

[Utopia]

This is the article from the News & Observer which is a little more specific.

http://www.newsobserver.com/1413/story/546207.html

(this link seems to be a bit finicky, if it doesn't work, you can also search from www.newsobserver.com for a different story on the MY case and then select this one from the related stories)


Excerpt:
“Conversations between a therapist and patient are considered confidential unless a judge orders the therapist to divulge information, said Judy Hohlfeldt of the N.C. Board of Licensed Professional Counselors.
Exceptions occur if a patient speaks of abusing a child or sharing homicidal or suicidal thoughts, said Louise Glenn, a Durham professional counselor.”
If anyone wants to do a little more digging, here are some more links:

North Carolina Board of Licensed Professional Counselors http://www.ncblpc.org/law.html

Licensure Law Packet (also linked from above site):
http://www.ncblpc.org/forms/Licensure Law and General Satutes 0806.pdf

American Counseling Association:
http://www.counseling.org/Home/Faq.aspx

From the “frequently asked questions” section (FAQ) of the ACA
Is everything I say confidential?

All members of the American Counseling Association subscribe to the Code of Ethics and Standards of Practice which require counselors to protect the confidentiality of their communications with clients. Most state licensure laws also protect client confidentiality. As a client, you are guaranteed the protection of confidentiality within the boundaries of the client/counselor relationship. Any disclosure will be made with your full written, informed consent and will be limited to a specific period of time. The only limitations to confidentiality occur when a counselor feels that there is clear and imminent danger to you or to others, or when legal requirements demand that confidential information be disclosed such as a court case. Whenever possible, you will be informed before confidential information is revealed.
ACA Code of Ethics link available in download section (bottom right corner)



With regard to the 31/2 lag of time before documents were officially sought by the court, I don't think this is unreasonable. I imagine some hoops had to be jumped through. Also, as to the number of sessions, I'm not sure what its like elsewhere but I know the EAP program through my work, and others that I know of, usually only provide short term counseling of 4-6 sessions. If more is required they refer you on and you would then take responsibility for payment. I would guess the sessions would be booked either once per week or once every other week.


Hope this is useful.
Utopia

 

[scandi]

Scandi,

You asked if that was gobbledegook that you read about JY being a felon. If you are referring to the post by someone named Lou Malone at CTV, I believe that post was made in error. I went and looked at all his other posts and they were in a forum call the McGuire Murder. I believe the victim in that case may have also been named Michelle.

Hope you're doing well!!

Hi Whimsigal, I read that short thread, and actually laughed after reading the last post. Lou must have read what was said about it being the wrong case but came back and embellished on it a bit. Was there a Michelle in that case too?

I thought that was the short thread that dealt with a gun.

Scandi

 

[jilly]

Scandi - I think you may be right about limited sessions with this therapist. We've read that JY knew she was going to a therapist but didn't know what was said. This could have been what set him off. Some of these guys get paranoid with even the mention of a psychologist/psychiatrist. Things were closing in on him and with her seeing a psychologist he had lost total control?

Here's a thought though.....if JY had threatened to kill Michelle and he knows she's seeing a therapist, do you think he still would have killed her?

 

[jilly]

Hi Utopia.

Thanks for all that information. After reading most of it, it seems to pertain to a client whilst s/he is alive. I couldn't find any mention of therapist/client privilege when the client ends up dead which I believe could have a bearing on the privilege.

I'll have to do some googling for case authority.

Also interesting in your post - "The only limitations to confidentiality occur when a counselor feels that there is clear and imminent danger to you or to others, or when legal requirements demand that confidential information be disclosed such as a court case. Whenever possible, you will be informed before confidential information is revealed."

This makes me think that the therapist did not think Michelle was in any danger otherwise she would have had to report it.

 

[scandi]

Yes, I think so Jilly, but think he truely planned it, to strangle her and to wear a paper outfit he could dispose of. One thing that tells me it was premeditated was when strangling didn't work he didn't stop. He proceeded to beat her to death. Wonder if he had access to a suit from Chart-one?

Like we learned in the SP case, Dr Albow pointed out that in spousal murders, removing the threat is what drives the murder to occur. Whoever killed her wanted her dead.

I still don't know if she died right away when he thought she was gone. She bled so much. How long would it take to deliver 30 some blows to her head? 5 min, maybe 10 from the time he walked in the room. Just guessing.

 

[scandi]

Hi Utopia.

Thanks for all that information. After reading most of it, it seems to pertain to a client whilst s/he is alive. I couldn't find any mention of therapist/client privilege when the client ends up dead which I believe could have a bearing on the privilege.

I'll have to do some googling for case authority.

Also interesting in your post - "The only limitations to confidentiality occur when a counselor feels that there is clear and imminent danger to you or to others, or when legal requirements demand that confidential information be disclosed such as a court case. Whenever possible, you will be informed before confidential information is revealed."

This makes me think that the therapist did not think Michelle was in any danger otherwise she would have had to report it.

Maybe she did report it after getting an attorney who would have petitioned the court for her to break that patient/Dr privledge. We just don't know yet.

 

[nanandjim]

No I don't know that it must have a direct link to the murder...

I didn't mean you. Perhaps, I should have stated I. I am under the impression that it is rare for a judge to grant access to any patient's files, dead or alive. I think that the sessions must contain something that is directly pertinent to the crime. I think that Michelle mentioned something, whether it be her fears or something Jason was doing or saying, that would fit into Jason committing the crime.

I wonder if the sessions were tape recorded. I would think that would be better than just looking into her file.

 

[chicoliving]

I wonder if the sessions were tape recorded. I would think that would be better than just looking into her file.

I wondered the same. I also wonder if Michelle went into detail about the car accident from her POV. It seems the loss of a baby would be something to talk with a Dr. about. I'd think that talking about stressful life incidents would be natural when talking with someone professionally no matter what your problem was that brought you there.