Michelle Young: Pregnant Mom, NC. part 8

[strach304]

RC, you got mail

 

[scandi]

How true Charlie. Look at the Robb case. A beautifully written warrant with lots of detail as to probable cause. Autopsy back in one week {close to it}.
There is a lot we don't know, of course, but we do know a lot.

Locals are not interested in Michelle's case in particular. Odd? When you read an article that asks for comments, you only see a few made. Strange?

It has to be either they have all the basics down and really don't need any input from the public. It's a matter of time, and due to the clever and outstanding defense in the case, every detail has to be perfect to arrest or name as a suspect.

Or they are completely blown away, but there is no other suspect that has reared his head in their eyes, so it falls back on the un-cooperative husband. Kinda weird!

 

[5bigfish5]

Nothing really new on the 11 o'clock news.


WTVD showed the footage from the funeral again. The guy between the cameraman and JY was blurred out, does anyone remember it being like that before? I don't. I know I have seen that same footage 10-15 times.

Why would he be blurred out now? Wonder who it is.

TIA.

 

[Samiya]

I always mind you- thats why I always try to see where you are going with something ! gllad you got a chuckle on my ramble !
I see a connection to the front and back, but still---- we are talking about a drop---- if he was even slightly injured in his assault on my, dont you think we would be looking at more than a drop to attribute to any kind of "wound"--- in thinking- even a good scratch, doesnt usually bleed--- you know what i mean?

Hi J2mirish,

We probably need to stop thinking literal 'drops' as far as the news reporters are concerned. Not so much with the seat but with the exterior door.

Now.....as far as the seat goes. If it is on the seat itself, yes it can be termed as a 'drop' or more correctly if small, a 'droplet'. To be a drop it has to have come from higher than the object it hit. As in directly above, dropping down to hit an object directly below on a horzontal level.

If it is on the backrest of the seat, then the drop becomes a drip as the shape of the 'drop' changes to reflect the surface angle it has come in contact with.

For the exterior door, 99.75% of the surface area is vertical, therefore it would be referred to as a 'drip', which means that it would have an upward pointing 'tail' to reflect the fact that it moved downwards on the door (it could also have been a spatter, in which case the tail could point in any direction or it could have multiple tails (ie; one pointing left (which would be the direction it came from) and one pointing down as it became a drip almost immediately after contact). The 0.25 % of the surface area of the door is 'horizontal' in which the blood could be referred to as a drop. This area is the area in direct contact to the window, the little 'ledge'.

IF it is Michelle's blood, then the most possible area of the Perp's person it would've came from is his hair or nose, as in a nosebleed. Skin tends to hold blood better, because of the temperature of the skin, blood coagulates and dries faster than it would on an a surface which is not subjected to a constant warm temperature.

Again, not seeing it makes it difficult.

HAIR THEORY:

If the perp used an overhead swing, then there would have been blood on the ceiling as well as behind (the perp) as the perp continuously drew the weapon back and forth. That may also explain why the terms 'spatter on walls and lamp' in the room. For the purpose of the search warrant, that wording may have been used as it may be the 'least covered surface area in regards to amount of blood' within the room and also because the public will eventually get access to details. In other words, the perp may have had his back to that wall and lamp.

Depending on the amount of damage done to the victim in this manner there could well have been enough blowback to cause dripping from the ceiling to the floor. This includes onto the head of the perp. A continuous overhead swing would also lead to blood running down the weapon and onto the hands of the perp, depending on the weapon used, because of the continued raising of the weapon over the head of the perp.

As far as perps wounds you are right, the wound would have to be deep enough into the vessels in the epidermis to cause a flow of blood and if that was the case, there would be more than 'two drops'. Small cuts tend to seep slowly. Bleeding from minor cuts depends fully on where the cut is, the angle and the depth. The mouth tends to bleed more freely with a small cut (or a bite of the lip) but it is also the part of the body which heals the fastest. As such, most cuts to inner lips and gums, tongue where bleeding occurs is mixed with saliva as the tang of blood causes more salivation.

NOSE BLEED:

A blood nose however is a different story. It doesn't require cutting, just a good aim and enough damage to open one or more blood vessels inside the nose. The hit itself does not need to be hard. Even a copious nosebleed would have to have investigators testing almost all the blood, including spatters, in the room as the perp would probably be wiping his nose at intervals and shaking the blood off his hand, so although I wish she gave him a good thumping in the nose it probably didn't occur as it would have to have been a lucky hit and women tend to swing out rather than punch into an object in defense, and hit about the head as opposed to coming in a direct line unless she is holding something that will stab a person.

I could be here forever, lol, but I'll close this post as it's long enough for now. I hope there's enough info for you

Sami

 

[scandi]

Hi 5bigfish5,

That is wild! Is there a link to that video here? It might be original and not augmented. Unless it's updated. Euftameda! LOL :banghead:

Tell you what, when you crawl into the sack tonight, hypmotize yourself. You can do it! Take yourself back to the first time you saw it as that would be the most memorable. Close your eyes and think about what you thought when you first saw it.

That's what Peter Pan would do!~

 

[Samiya]

Nothing really new on the 11 o'clock news.


WTVD showed the footage from the funeral again. The guy between the cameraman and JY was blurred out, does anyone remember it being like that before? I don't. I know I have seen that same footage 10-15 times.

Why would he be blurred out now? Wonder who it is.

TIA.

I think I remember him and assumed him to be Jason's brother in law, but I could be wrong. I'll have to find some of the footage and have a looky.

He may have been blurred out so he's not identified by someone since Jason and Cassidy may be staying with them.

Or a more sinister reason...maybe he's going to be arrested soon.

Very interesting though.

Sami

 

[scandi]

That was interesting Sami.It seems to me that the direction you think the blood is going to go is not the case, but the opposite way. Like when one gets hit hard on one side of his shin, the pain and damage often reflects on the opposite side of the leg. Think of a scene with several victims and spatter pattern on top of spatter pattern. LOL Thank goodness we don't have that problem here!

There was no mention of spatter on the ceiling, just walls and the lamp. Still with repeated blows there would be cast off blood as the perp raised his arm for another swing. Why wasn't that blood specified? Ten swings to me seems like so many, unless the weapon was relatively small, or breaking down with every successive hit so more hits were needed to get the damage done to her he wanted to inflict.

It was the most brutal crime scene in Raleigh in 20+ years. That tells me that what Dr Baden said is correct. When the head is the object of blunt force trauma, it can be extremely bloody. Her skull was cracked or beaten open to expose brain matter, and that tissue had been damaged, going in beyond the Dura, or membrane covering of the brain itself.


I see such a similarity in this case to the actual brutality in the Robb murder on one specific point. Each killer had something he wanted to accomplish above and beyond the actual killing. With Robb it was wiping out her identity. He left her virtually with no face. He despised or really hated her I think. With Michelle's murder, he wanted to wipe out the control her brain had on him. So smart, decicive in details and most likely very logical but pointed in her thoughts, he wanted to especially kill that part of who she was. With both men, this is what was the main threat to their own future wellbeing. And that is why they each killed the way they did.

Just thinkin' away! LOL

 

[otto]

FWIW, your theory of someone targeting young prenant mothers might work except no one knew Janet was pregnant, she'd just found out. So, she wasn't showing or anything. It wasn't even reported in the press until months after her murder, IIRC.

JMHO
fran

I don't really think it's a viable theory ... it's completely unheard of as a motive. I did take some time recently to review some of the facts and news articles (was completely unfamiliar with the case) wondering whether there is something going on, but it doesn't seem likely.

 

[scandi]

I agree Otto, It seems very personal in each case because of what is targeted in each murder. Each killer in a domestic relationship must have something special he wants to destroy that will then set him free from what threatens him.


ETA: Oh, and maybe that is what names the motive in each killing, right?

 

[Samiya]

That was interesting Sami.It seems to me that the direction you think the blood is going to go is not the case, but the opposite way. Like when one gets hit hard on one side of his shin, the pain and damage often reflects on the opposite side of the leg. Think of a scene with several victims and spatter pattern on top of spatter pattern. LOL Thank goodness we don't have that problem here!

Yes, because it would take even longer, lol.

There was no mention of spatter on the ceiling, just walls and the lamp. Still with repeated blows there would be cast off blood as the perp raised his arm for another swing. Why wasn't that blood specified? Ten swings to me seems like so many, unless the weapon was relatively small, or breaking down with every successive hit so more hits were needed to get the damage done to her he wanted to inflict.

For the search warrant, LE don't have to write every detail down in regards to where blood is....lol we'd still be reading warrants and not get much opportunity to post here There's so much more they're not telling, ie; whether there are spatters or slight pooling on pillow/s, so I'm thinking that the first blow may not have done any 'cutting' damage as if often the case. Further blows become more violent as the inexperienced blugeoner realises very quickly that killing someone with blows to the head is not an easy job. The skull is 'domed' and domed surfaces are harder to penetrate than a flat or bowled surface. FI this killer was experienced, then he would've known roughly how many blows it would take to cause death or bleeding out causing death.

As such, (IMO) Michelle would've suffered forms of brain death before lung and heart death.

It was the most brutal crime scene in Raleigh in 20+ years. That tells me that what Dr Baden said is correct. When the head is the object of blunt force trauma, it can be extremely bloody. Her skull was cracked or beaten open to expose brain matter, and that tissue had been damaged, going in beyond the Dura, or membrane covering of the brain itself.

I adore Dr Baden and he is certainly right. To open a skull and 'mash' a brain takes numerous blows and the fractured bone rips the dura further with each blow and also embeds into the brain. Most certainly by this time the killer no longer cares what he's doing and doesn't particularly care about his surroundings. You could walk into the doorway and it would take around 30 seconds or more for him to notice you there. In saying that, if Cassidy had walked to the doorway and he had seen her he is far beyond caring and given her age he will either ignore her or kill her. In this case he chose to ignore her if she saw anything, or the sight of her may have caused him to flee.

I see such a similarity in this case to the actual brutality in the Robb murder on one specific point. Each killer had something he wanted to accomplish above and beyond the actual killing. With Robb it was wiping out her identity. He left her virtually with no face. He despised or really hated her I think. With Michelle's murder, he wanted to wipe out the control her brain had on him. So smart, decicive in details and most likely very logical but pointed in her thoughts, he wanted to especially kill that part of who she was. With both men, this is what was the main threat to their own future wellbeing. And that is why they each killed the way they did.

This does seem to be a very personal murder and a very selfish murder as well. I haven't read up on the Robb case as yet with all the excitement my way but I will do so. Is the autopsy released for the Robb case as that is where I'd like to start....hope they release Chelle's soon. If Chelle basically decided on how their lives were going to go, then the only thing that's really left for Jason to be able to feel that he has control over would be her death.

I don't think he would've fared badly if they were divorced. The did have two houses, so it's not like he would've been homeless and out on the street. IF they were separating, I think Michelle would've been fair in working out access etc, paying attention to detail. I don't think she would've denied him his daughter.

Just thinkin' away! LOL

I wondered what that noise was, lol. :blowkiss:

I am curious, if Chelle was preg at the time of the accident, as to whether or not the first baby to be lost after the accident was also a son.

"cheekily"
Sami

 

[otto]

... Each killer had something he wanted to accomplish above and beyond the actual killing. With Robb it was wiping out her identity. He left her virtually with no face. He despised or really hated her I think. With Michelle's murder, he wanted to wipe out the control her brain had on him. So smart, decicive in details and most likely very logical but pointed in her thoughts, he wanted to especially kill that part of who she was. With both men, this is what was the main threat to their own future wellbeing. And that is why they each killed the way they did.

Just thinkin' away! LOL

Scandi, you raise a point similar to (or remind me of) a few days ago. I don't know if you saw my post, but the thread closed and I had to run ... but what I wrote about was what I thought was the relationship between Michelle and Jason, Michelle and her father, Jason and his father, and Jason and his stepfather.

I suspect that Michelle's natural father was abusive and this is supported by Michelle, Meredith (her myspace) and Linda Fisher's reluctance to associate with him. If this is true, Michelle would have made a point of trying to avoid men like that, although it would have been in her nature to gravitate towards those types of men. I think that women are attracted towards men with similar characteristics as fathers, boyfriends, husbands; even if they are sometimes domineering - they can't help but be attracted to the confident, golden-boy, facade that is the double-edged sword.

It is also possible that Jason's father was domineering. I'm speculating on this because his stepfather has clearly been telling Jason what to do and what not to do. In fact, he has taken charge of Jason regarding getting a lawyer and even with the media, to some degree. I think you asked whether he might be in law enforcement. I think at the very least he is a vietnam war vet and prone to giving direction to people. I also think his natural father would be equally domineering if he were in the picture.

I think it's possible that both Michelle and Jason wanted to avoid domineering or abusive men and had probably discussed the presence of those types of men in their families. However, I also think that they were both a little prone to interacting with domineering personalities in ways that may not have been healthy - and I'm completely speculating here. I wonder if they both wanted to get away from people like that and found each other, but had unfortunately absorbed some of the personality traits common in abusive or domineering people.

If I recall, Michelle was instantly attracted to Jason in the bar ... she was the centre of the party and he was the wall flower. Jason was withdrawn, Michelle was outgoing ... but they were probably both coping mechanisms for a social imbalance that they felt in their childhoods. Much as they wanted to avoid domineering people, a certain competitiveness would have seeped into their lives in terms of academic credentials, financial superiority, ability to manage it all and in day to day conversation with jokes being both jokes and put-downs ... funny put-downs but not really funny. I think that they were attracted to the dangerous part of each other but believed they could control it, or perhaps control it in each other.

I can see that this combination would have worked on the facade - that golden boy/golden life/golden future would have been very attractive to everyone (including friends of Michelle that sought to boost their own self-esteem by seducing her husband). I also suspect that beneath the facade there was a lot of tension because it appears that Michelle was able to manage it all, was more financially (career) stable and definitely had the "made for success" academic credentials.

Michelle, like Jason, was very bright and she would have sensed a marital problem in August, just prior to his fling with her sorority sister. Michelle's pregnancy may have been related to a sense that Jason was straying (just speculating).

I can see that Jason would have had a lot of tension building for a long time, probably since the time he changed jobs, and the prospect of having to support his family in the lifestyle they enjoyed was not looking possible without Michelle's income. I also think that he was afraid of any jokes or redicule that would have come with him floundering while trying to keep it together. I think he would have lost face if he couldn't pull it off.

Okay, that's a little more long winded than the first time I wrote it, but the gist is there ... obliterating one's partner due to a fear of one's own failure being reflected by the partner.

In my opinion, Scott Peterson suffered from this problem (his business was failing with a baby on the way), Mark Hacking had the same problem (about to be revealed as an academic fraud and a baby on the way) ... and I haven't followed enough cases to really make more connections but I bet you can name a few more. Maybe that's all it comes down to with men that murder their pregnant wives ... just a really big fear of failure and loss of "golden boy status" in the eyes of their friends, family, and lover - who has put them on a pedestal they never felt they deserved.

 

[Samiya]

Scandi, you raise a point similar to (or remind me of) a few days ago. I don't know if you saw my post, but the thread closed and I had to run ... but what I wrote about was what I thought was the relationship between Michelle and Jason, Michelle and her father, Jason and his father, and Jason and his stepfather.

I suspect that Michelle's natural father was abusive and this is supported by Michelle, Meredith (her myspace) and Linda Fisher's reluctance to associate with him. If this is true, Michelle would have made a point of trying to avoid men like that, although it would have been in her nature to gravitate towards those types of men. I think that women are attracted towards men with similar characteristics as fathers, boyfriends, husbands; even if they are sometimes domineering - they can't help but be attracted to the confident, golden-boy, facade that is the double-edged sword.

It is also possible that Jason's father was domineering. I'm speculating on this because his stepfather has clearly been telling Jason what to do and what not to do. In fact, he has taken charge of Jason regarding getting a lawyer and even with the media, to some degree. I think you asked whether he might be in law enforcement. I think at the very least he is a vietnam war vet and prone to giving direction to people. I also think his natural father would be equally domineering if he were in the picture.

I think it's possible that both Michelle and Jason wanted to avoid domineering or abusive men and had probably discussed the presence of those types of men in their families. However, I also think that they were both a little prone to interacting with domineering personalities in ways that may not have been healthy - and I'm completely speculating here. I wonder if they both wanted to get away from people like that and found each other, but had unfortunately absorbed some of the personality traits common in abusive or domineering people.

If I recall, Michelle was instantly attracted to Jason in the bar ... she was the centre of the party and he was the wall flower. Much as they wanted to avoid domineering people, a certain competitiveness would have seeped into their lives in terms of academic credentials, financial superiority, ability to manage it all and in day to day conversation with jokes being both jokes and put-downs ... funny put-downs but not really funny. Jason was withdrawn, Michelle was outgoing ... but they were probably both coping mechanisms for a social imbalance that they felt in their childhoods.

I can see that this combination would have worked on the facade - that golden boy/golden life/golden future would have been very attractive to everyone. I also suspect that beneath the facade there was a lot of tension because it appears that Michelle was able to manage it all, she was more financially (career) stable and she definitely had the "made for success" academic credentials. I can see that Jason would have had a lot of tension building for a long time, probably since the time he changed jobs, and the prospect of having to support his family in the lifestyle they enjoyed was not looking possible without Michelle's income. I also think that he was afraid of any jokes or redicule that would have come with him floundering while trying to keep it together.

Okay, that's a little more long winded than the first time I wrote it, but the gist is there ... obliterating one's partner due to a fear of one's own failure reflected by the partner.

In my opinion, Scott Peterson suffered from this problem (his business was failing with a baby on the way), Mark Hacking had the same problem (about to be revealed as an academic fraud and a baby on the way) ... and I haven't followed enough cases to really make more connections but I bet you can name a few more. Maybe that's all it comes down to with men that murder their pregnant wives ... just a really big fear of failure and loss of "golden boy status" in the eyes of their friends and family.

Hi Otto,

Also figuring in there somewhere is the husband's loss of 'wife's number one male' status to a son. I'm not sure what Mark Hacking's baby was, but Laci's was a boy. Heaven forbid the 'husband' should come 'second best' to another 'male' in his wifes life It happens alot, just not every man kills over it, they just tend to be broody and jealous.

Sami

 

[otto]

Hi Otto,

Also figuring in there somewhere is the husband's loss of 'wife's number one male' status to a son. I'm not sure what Mark Hacking's baby was, but Laci's was a boy. Heaven forbid the 'husband' should come 'second best' to another 'male' in his wifes life It happens alot, just not every man kills over it, they just tend to be broody and jealous.

Sami

That's an interesting point. Being replaced by a new golden boy? That could be threatening in a very subconscious way. Having a female child in some ways means duplicating the mom, but a male child means duplicating more of the dad. Before the birth of a son, the dad is the 'boy' of the family but afterwards, the son can becomes competition? There are even movies about that ... that soccer film: kicks or something like that. Maybe ultrasound isn't sound a good thing for women after all ... perhaps better to wait for the surprise.

 

[Samiya]

I'm going to start a new thread My computer is going silly and I have to scroll right across to the right to change pages

Yeah I'm selfish, lol.

Anyway to kick us off for the new thread I have the News and Observers article and have also added it to the media section

Love
Sami

 

[otto]

I'm going to start a new thread My computer is going silly and I have to scroll right across to the right to change pages

Yeah I'm selfish, lol.

Anyway to kick us off for the new thread I have the News and Observers article and have also added it to the media section

Love
Sami

I'm going to repost my response to Scandi because it got lost in the last shuffle ... it would be even longer if I wrote it again!