Miss California - Same Sex Marriage-Perez Hilton

  • #121
Cyber, is your point that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexual relationships, but merely homosexual sex acts? If so, I believe that is correct. The concept of sexual orientation was almost certainly not understood by the writers of the OT or NT. (I say "almost certainly" because there are passages in Plato, which the writers of the NT may have read, which seem to suggest hetero, gay male and lesbian orientations. In general, however, it was not a concept understood before the modern era.)

Here's something else I wonder: don't the members of some Christian sects believe, at least technically, that members of other sects are heretics and at risk of eternal damnation. Why don't Mormons, say, lobby to ban Roman Catholic marriages? Oh, that's right, they can't; because the Constitution doesn't allow it.

(ETA: I seem to remember a poster taking umbrage at my use of the word "sect" instead of "denomination." Technically, they mean the same thing and I intend no negative judgment in my use of the word "sect.")
 
  • #122
The Bible, interpreted correctly, in no way shape or form condemns homosexuality. It is, in fact, neutral on the subject. Christ Himself says not one single word about homosexuality, and in fact a number of modern Biblical scholars believe the story (recorded in Matthew and Luke) of Christ healing the Centurion's slave shows Him affirming a homosexual relationship.

Regardless - this isn't, of course, a religious issue. Churches can marry or not marry whoever they like. Marriage is a civil institution, and the benefits of this civil institution should be open to all of us.
 
  • #123
I can't find the clarity that you see in her answer, Stead, mostly because she threw out several catch phrases without clear connectors.

Maybe I was just favorably comparing her answer to Miss Arizona's response to the question "Do you believe in universal health care as a right of citizenship?":

"You know what? I think this is an issue of integrity, regardless of which end of the of political spectrum that I stand on. I've been raised in a family to know right from wrong, and politics whether or not you fall in the middle, the left or the right, it's an issue of integrity whatever your opinion is and I say that with the utmost conviction."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...0/the-best-and-worst-of-the-miss-usa-pageant/
 
  • #124
Why don't Mormons, say, lobby to ban Roman Catholic marriages?

If you are going to ask a question and provide a sarcastic answer, you should at least know what you are talking about. I am mormon. Mormons believe that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. If we seek to protect what we feel is the sacred state of marriage, your comment makes absolutely no sense.
 
  • #125
If you are going to ask a question and provide a sarcastic answer, you should at least know what you are talking about. I am mormon. Mormons believe that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. If we seek to protect what we feel is the sacred state of marriage, your comment makes absolutely no sense.

R&G, I bow to your infinitely superior knowledge of Mormon theology. And for the record, I wasn't being cute in the post to which you refer. I asked a sincere question (sincere at least for purposes of discussion) and then the answer popped into my head. But I see now it must have sounded snarky the way I left it.

So Mormons believe ALL marriages are ordained of God, regardless of whether they are performed in the Mormon temple? Good for you, guys!

Nonetheless, my underlying point remains that there isn't a lot of consistency in religious objections to gay marriage as a civil right. Not only are scriptural prohibitions (I mean the OT and NT here; I don't know the Book of Mormon very well) being cherry picked, but only some objections are deemed deserving of legal codification. Some denominations disallow divorce (at least in theory), yet civil divorce is legal. Some denominations (let's put the Mormons aside for now) believe the sacraments of other sects are heretical and not recognized by God. Here again, we don't codify those objections into civil law.
 
  • #126
Maybe I was just favorably comparing her answer to Miss Arizona's response to the question "Do you believe in universal health care as a right of citizenship?":

"You know what? I think this is an issue of integrity, regardless of which end of the of political spectrum that I stand on. I've been raised in a family to know right from wrong, and politics whether or not you fall in the middle, the left or the right, it's an issue of integrity whatever your opinion is and I say that with the utmost conviction."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...0/the-best-and-worst-of-the-miss-usa-pageant/

Point taken. :)

At least Miss Cali was trying to think on her feet...
 
  • #127
Nonetheless, my underlying point remains that there isn't a lot of consistency in religious objections to gay marriage as a civil right. Not only are scriptural prohibitions (I mean the OT and NT here; I don't know the Book of Mormon very well) being cherry picked, but only some objections are deemed deserving of legal codification. Some denominations disallow divorce (at least in theory), yet civil divorce is legal. Some denominations (let's put the Mormons aside for now) believe the sacraments of other sects are heretical and not recognized by God. Here again, we don't codify those objections into civil law.

If that is the point you are making, it is very iteresting. It is applicable because it is reasonable to assume that most of the basis against gay marriage is religious based. If you look at the laws on the books, some line up with some religions, and at the same time they go against other religions. We see that with so many things: divorce, shopping on sundays, alcohol, eating pork, abortion, war, gay marriages, etc. I'm sure gun laws and hunting are included in some religions too. I'd imagine we could come up with a lot of topics where the laws and people's personal beliefs don't line up.

That does make you go hmmmm. But then again, there probably isn't a single law that everyone out there will agree with (not even murder).

So what is the appropriate balance and why?
 
  • #128
Nova, could you provide a scientific link stating that homosexuality has been proven to be as much of a genetic trait as hair colour or eye colour? Environmental factors don't count. Homosexuality is in my opinion, a choice. A choice to act upon sexual urges and lust, which the bible considers a sin. Now, since I read the bible and respect it to be the inspired word of God, I obviously feel the same way. I feel that marriage between a man and a women is a God ordained union meant to help us serve Him and display Jesus Christ's love and forgiveness to one another.

When did I decide I was heterosexual? I didn't have to "decide", God decided for me. I was born with a vagina. I was born with a womb. It's not a matter of choice it's a matter of how God created me. This is not just my body, something that I can use for my own pleasure. My body is God's creation and I don't intend to use it in a way God wouldn't like. I use my body in a way to show the respect and love I have for God.

You are free to make your decisions and if you choose to marry somebody of the same sex that's your choice. I wouldn't want to stand in the way. Truth be told, I could very well be wrong and only God can decide for himself who he grants forgiveness too and who is in need of forgiveness. However, I am not going to debate ethical issues with you nor am I going to start arguing South City Mom's interpretation of Scripture, which was that Jesus affirmed a homosexual relationship. We can all interpret the bible as we please, as long as we're actually reading it and not just parroting factoids we find in various books and on the internet.

I think that when Jesus said, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" can apply to this discussion.
 
  • #129
How can you possibly know if others' behavior is a choice or not?

And if "God decided" your sexuality, how did he not decide others'?
 
  • #130
How can you possibly know if others' behavior is a choice or not?

And if "God decided" your sexuality, how did he not decide others'?

No doubt!
 
  • #131
Why would someone choose to be gay?


So straight people are straight because God made them that way, and gay people are gay because they make a conscious decision to be part of a repressed minority? GMAB!
 
  • #132
If that is the point you are making, it is very iteresting. It is applicable because it is reasonable to assume that most of the basis against gay marriage is religious based. If you look at the laws on the books, some line up with some religions, and at the same time they go against other religions. We see that with so many things: divorce, shopping on sundays, alcohol, eating pork, abortion, war, gay marriages, etc. I'm sure gun laws and hunting are included in some religions too. I'd imagine we could come up with a lot of topics where the laws and people's personal beliefs don't line up.

That does make you go hmmmm. But then again, there probably isn't a single law that everyone out there will agree with (not even murder).

So what is the appropriate balance and why?

That's a great question, without, I think, an easy answer. "Greatest good for the greatest number," is one very common basis for law, but the notion has been abused in cases such as the Soviet Union, where 20 million Ukraines were allowed to starve so that, supposedly, the greater number of workers could prosper under government control of agriculture. This isn't to say "greatest good" isn't still a good test, just that we have to be careful when applying it.

"Benefit v. harm" is also a way to approach (I'm afraid to say "achieve") balance. And in general in this country and by law, we have not considered people being "upset" a true harm when compared to the benefit of civil rights.

In general, I think all of us who hold faith in a supernatural reality need to rely heavily on reason when considering the questions of the day. That's not to say we must check our hearts at the voting booth door, but we should keep in mind what we know as a fact versus what we take on faith.
 
  • #133
Nova, could you provide a scientific link stating that homosexuality has been proven to be as much of a genetic trait as hair colour or eye colour? Environmental factors don't count. Homosexuality is in my opinion, a choice. A choice to act upon sexual urges and lust, which the bible considers a sin. Now, since I read the bible and respect it to be the inspired word of God, I obviously feel the same way. I feel that marriage between a man and a women is a God ordained union meant to help us serve Him and display Jesus Christ's love and forgiveness to one another.

Danaya, all research on this subject is in preliminary stages, but much of it is rather convincing (once one accepts that we are probably looking at multiple causes rather than a single gene in every case).

Here's a pretty good overview, though it is already out of date:

http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Causes_of_homosexuality/


Unfortunately, my most recent info comes from a BBC documentary I watched a couple of weeks ago and I can't cite to that. But parts of it are available online, here for example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/7521689.stm


DISCLAIMER, however, the doc does NOT conclude that homosexuality has one single cause, as in the case of eye color.

AND ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS CERTAINLY DO COUNT, if the issue is whether sexual orientation is a "choice." And in fact, the science of genetics is increasingly inclined to believe that many genetic factors are "brought into play" by later environmental elements.

In the case of homosexuality, a number of new studies suggest that male homosexuals may be "created" in the womb by the amount of testosterone or other hormones secreted by the mother. This seems to be increasingly true as any one woman has additional boy children, since later sons are far, far likelier to be gay.

But whether the cause is a gene or the environment in the womb -- or even the way one is raised by one's parents -- there is no "choice" in the outcome for the overwhelming majority of gay people. Why so many religious people cling to a piece of abstract theology (something not even explicitly stated in the Bible) over the testimony of milliions upon millions of homosexuals and the obvious illogic of so many people "choosing" to become social pariahs, is beyond me.

When did I decide I was heterosexual? I didn't have to "decide", God decided for me. I was born with a vagina. I was born with a womb. It's not a matter of choice it's a matter of how God created me....

(Excerpted only for length. Danaya's discussion of her own body as a gift from God is beautifully written and should be read above.)

You are describing your sex (female), not your sexual orientation. If the two were the same, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But I can't help noting that in discussing your own sexuality, you make no mention of sex acts. However, in mentioning homosexuality, you speak only in terms of "lust" and acting on "sexual urges."

This is why the issue of gay marriage is so important! Because without it, it is too easy for people like you to reduce gay sexuality to f**king, while thinking of heterosexuality as something that is as much spiritual and emotional, as sexual.

No offense intended, I know, and no harm done, but you'd find it highly presumptuous if I reduced you as a human being and your marriage the way you just reduced me and mine to mere sex acts.

The reason gay marriage matters to gay people -- beyond the immediate legal protections, which are crucial if one is to protect one's home and family -- is that we have spent decades trying to explain that our relationships are also more than the mere bumping of uglies. We also love, nurture, and support, and dream, fear and hope for one another. We also labor long and hard to keep our marriages healthy and to build lives together. Just like straight couples. And as the CA Supremes wrote at length, our relationships also deserve legal respect.
 
  • #134
For the record, Danaya, SCM was not "parroting" an "internet factoid" in discussing the incident with the centurion. She was paraphrasing something on which many (though certainly not all) classical scholars agree. Such scholars read copies of the works (since no originals survive) in their original language and compare word usage, etc. to other docs of the same period.

I'm all for reading the Bible, too. But if we're going to use it as an authority on contemporary law, then we should all be reading Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic and we should be well-versed in cross-literary historical evidence.

(ETA: I'm not advocating for how that passage should be understood. I don't know enough to have an opinion. But I do know SCM and I know she doesn't "parrot" anything casually.)
 
  • #135
Studies by Ivanka Savic et al

Stockholm Brain Institute,
Department of Clinical Neuroscience,

Karolinska Institute,
171 76 Stockholm, Sweden

1. Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men 2005

These findings show that our brain reacts differently to the two putative pheromones compared with common
odors, and suggest a link between sexual orientation and hypothalamic neuronal processes.


2. Brain response to putative pheromones in lesbian women 2006

These data support our previous results about differentiated processing of pheromone-like stimuli in humans and further
strengthen the notion of a coupling between hypothalamic neuronal circuits and sexual preferences.


3. PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between 🤬🤬🤬🤬- and
heterosexual subjects 2008


The present study shows sex-atypical cerebral asymmetry and functional connections in homosexual subjects. The results cannot be primarily ascribed to learned effects, and they suggest a linkage to neurobiological entities.
 

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  • #136
Thank you, Nova. While I am by no means a scholar, I have had the privilege of reading some of the Bible in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic under the tutelage of classical scholars. It can be a whole new world.

I absolutely agree that the few Biblical texts that touch in different ways upon "homosexuality" (its hard for me to even use that term because, as you often point out, it's not a concept that existed when the Bible was written and cobbled together - not in the way it does for us today) can and are interpreted differently by different people.

My statements concerning those texts are completely my own opinion, and I feel compelled to state that opinion because, sadly, I believe that it is too often wrongly accepted as fact that the Bible condemns homosexuality. This leads to the miserable consequence of Christ's gay children feeling like they have no part in the mystery and beauty of Christianity, the body of Christ, if you will - and, as a Christian, that saddens me.
 
  • #137
I wouldn't care if the 11th commandment was "Thou shalt not marry a member of thy same sex" (or the equivalent in Hebrew, Greek, Amaraic, or Sandscrit). The laws of the United States should not be based on biblical law. They should be based on the Constitution.
 
  • #138
I wouldn't care if the 11th commandment was "Thou shalt not marry a member of thy same sex" (or the equivalent in Hebrew, Greek, Amaraic, or Sandscrit). The laws of the United States should not be based on biblical law. They should be based on the Constitution.


I agree with you 100%.

Part of me wants to the say the words of Bible shouldn't have a place in this decision, but the reality is that most (not all, but most) people who do not believe in same-sex marriage use the Bible to support their beliefs. And once not too long ago verses of the Bible were used to justify making/keeping interracial marriage a felony.

So the Bible is often in the middle of our civil rights laws.

I do think the Bible's dictates of love, compassion and fairness should come into play here - and they certainly seem to be since our country is steadily moving closer and closer to genuine equality regarding marriage! I'm a big believer in the spirit of the law.
 
  • #139
Thought I'd post...my mom just called.
Her neighbors, Bob and Jim, are celebrating their 47th (FORTY SEVENTH) anniversary today. Wow. :D
And they stayed together because they love eachother, not because of some piece of paper.
I hope that someday soon, the fact that marriage is a CIVIL RIGHT will matter...
 
  • #140
I'd like to say that I took comparative religion in college and did a paper on how religious leaders impact their followers' logical thinking. I personally believe it's blasphemous to condemn somebody for being different from you, or rather "gay". I'm a Christian, and believe homosexuals should be treated the same as heterosexuals. If GOD made everything, then shouldn't all be entitled to their share of heaven? Those people that believe it's against their religion to "ok" homosexuality - what's your belief on frogs? Just to use them as an example: frogs can change their gender in order to reproduce, depending on the opposite gender monopolizing their vicinity. This is done in order to carry on their natural chain. Do they not get into heaven, if you are one that believes in heaven? What about hermaphrodites? What about conjoined twins? If you believe that GOD created all living things, especially when working in conjunction with Science, then one would only hope that you'd believe it's against the 10 commandments to judge others in such a manner to say they'll go to hell. When I hear of people radically belittling gays, it sort of reminds me of the info I learned in H.S. of Hitler. Somebody's opinion doesn't make it fact...it's just an opinion. To put somebody down & shut them out b/c of how they are born is ridiculous in my eyes. Most people, imo, believe the way they believe b/c of what they were taught in church by their priest, pastor, rabbi, reverend, etc. What about reading the bible, in various religions & from various places around the world, before one determines an official opinion. I certainly learned alot in comparative religion class...and it hit home more than any anatomy or physiology class I took! I personally believe all are created equal and should be treated equal.
 

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