Miss Universe to Allow Transgender Contestants

[Nova]

I guess I just don't really understand why it matters that everybody is a real woman or parts weren't added artificially when the whole pageant thingie is just shallow but ultimately pointless entertainment (if you like that sort of thing) - why couldn't artificial and medically abnormal ladies enter a stupid show if they feel up to it?

I haven't watched a pageant in decades and have no idea why anyone would want to do so. But I agree with you: if some women (transgendered or not) enjoy them, it's none of my business.

 

[Hopeful One]

This may not be popular either...But I respectfully agree we disagree....
I don't think its mental illness because many have felt they were in the wrong body starting at as early an age as two or three years old. Can you imagine how horrid that would feel. I cannot imagine, but I try to, I just feel for the ones who cannot afford to alter their bodies to reflect who they truly are. I may be an odd old lady, but I could accept them as much as anyone else. IMHO... I am just happy to see people are starting to come around and accept people of alternative lifestyles....Its long overdue.

That's not to say I don't feel bad for them. I really do. It's got to be beyond difficult to go through life feeling as though you aren't who you are supposed to be. I struggle with depression and anxiety, both mental illnesses, so I know how it feels to be afflicted with a brain disorder.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying how I feel and I do appreciate other opinions. I can also agree with what some others are saying, even though it goes against what I believe to be true.

Whoever mentioned other surgical enhancements makes a great point. So that has me thinking too.

Either way, I feel very much for what these men/women go through. I can't imagine the pain and I wish they didn't have to suffer.

Nova, you also make a good point with saying that changing their gender "fixes" their mental thoughts of being in the wrong body, so I'm not sure what to make of that. But, as to my point of this being a mental illness, antidepressants and other medications can "fix" those of us who suffer with other mental illnesses. So isn't that kind of the same thing?

 

[Nova]

That's not to say I don't feel bad for them. I really do. It's got to be beyond difficult to go through life feeling as though you aren't who you are supposed to be. I struggle with depression and anxiety, both mental illnesses, so I know how it feels to be afflicted with a brain disorder.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying how I feel and I do appreciate other opinions. I can also agree with what some others are saying, even though it goes against what I believe to be true.

Whoever mentioned other surgical enhancements makes a great point. So that has me thinking too.

Either way, I feel very much for what these men/women go through. I can't imagine the pain and I wish they didn't have to suffer.

Nova, you also make a good point with saying that changing their gender "fixes" their mental thoughts of being in the wrong body, so I'm not sure what to make of that. But, as to my point of this being a mental illness, antidepressants and other medications can "fix" those of us who suffer with other mental illnesses. So isn't that kind of the same thing?

Thank you for this post, Hopeful One. It completely changes my understanding of what you are saying.

I'm not sure what the technical definition of "mental illness" is. (Actually, I don't believe it is a technical term.) But I did a cursory search of web pages and found that it is common to refer to depression and debilitating anxiety as "mental illnesses" to make the point that they are not mere failures of will. (I myself have been diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, which is also a "mental illness" using that definition.)

So in that sense, gender dysphoria is an illness and, yes, one of the most common treatments is "gender reassignment".

Unfortunately and perhaps archaically, the term "mental illness" is also used to refer to people whose perceptions are so distorted they are unable to perceive the world as the rest of us see it, i.e., they are delusional. Gender dysphoria would not fall into this definition of "mental illness".

 

[T4Tide]

lol.... with so many sets of fake , why are they concerned about one fake vagina?

 

[scandi]

lol.... with so many sets of fake , why are they concerned about one fake vagina?

I don't know, thinking these TG women have never experienced female sexuality in all it's complexity and mystery as we see in Eve Ensler's 'The Vagina Monologues'.

Too bad for them, as having a real 'fake vagina' doesn't make them a real or true woman IMO. ;}

 

[Trino]

If you've lived on this Earth a long time, you realize true beauty is internal. It's truly what's inside a person and what they do with their lives that counts. When you get to know a person you like or love, are the outside assets really that important? Can we even name the Miss Universe winners from a few years ago?

 

[otto]

If you've lived on this Earth a long time, you realize true beauty is internal. It's truly what's inside a person and what they do with their lives that counts. When you get to know a person you like or love, are the outside assets really that important? Can we even name the Miss Universe winners from a few years ago?

Wasn't there someone last year with Christian values that was caught in nude photos or something that wasn't entirely Christian? I don't remember the names or details, but I remember the oddities.

Does anyone remember the name of the first surgically altered woman that was accepted by the Donald Trump Beautiful Women competition? I'd like to know whether there was similar opposition to the "plasticizing" of natural beauty, like with gender alteration. Did natural women argue that plasticized women should not be allowed, or did everyone quickly get plasticized?

Wouldn't it be funny if, say 10 years in the future, the entire competition became dominated by beautiful, plasticized, muscular, transgendered men.

 

[otto]

Is there any known "disorder" case where women had surgery to have male genetalia attached ... and other amputations? Is this a "disorder" that only afflicts males?

I'm thinking that if the judges of a "beautiful women" competiton view a male body-type as more beautiful than a female body-type (regardless of how that person feels inside), then there's a problem. I have to wonder why this "woman", trapped in a man's body, would be considered to be a more beautiful woman than a "real woman".

 

[otto]

Basically, I'm wondering how this "woman trapped in a man's body" was put forth as a candidate in a Beautiful Women competition. I've read that this entree was funded by the Canadian First Nations. Is this the best that the First Natations has for their "beautiful woman" entry, or was this some sort of anonymous funding?

 

[Donjeta]

Both male-to-female and female-to-male types of transgenderism are possible although I understand that the surgery to create male genitalia is more challenging and some people choose not to have it.

JMO but considering the amount of discrimination that transgendered people often face it is a very negligible "problem" if an occasional transgendered person is thought beautiful, even it means s/he is more beautiful than some non-transgendered people. I think many of them might tell you that they hear more insults than praise for their beauty, things like "that dude is one ugly chick"). http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3216

:cow:

 

[Nova]

I don't know, thinking these TG women have never experienced female sexuality in all it's complexity and mystery as we see in Eve Ensler's 'The Vagina Monologues'.

Too bad for them, as having a real 'fake vagina' doesn't make them a real or true woman IMO. ;}

Wow! That's a rather narrow definition of womanhood you've got there.

So nuns and other virgins aren't real women either. Come to think of it, no one who is childless, by choice or by necessity, experiences "female sexuality in all its complexity and mystery" either, so they aren't real or true women, I suppose.

Some would exclude lesbians as well, based on your definition. And then of course there are all the other variations: females born without vaginas or without uteri, females born with other than the standard arrangement of chromosomes, etc. and so forth.

Humans are a very diverse lot, which is the problem when one begins to define who and what is "real" and "true".

 

[Nova]

Is there any known "disorder" case where women had surgery to have male genetalia attached ... and other amputations? Is this a "disorder" that only afflicts males?

I'm thinking that if the judges of a "beautiful women" competiton view a male body-type as more beautiful than a female body-type (regardless of how that person feels inside), then there's a problem. I have to wonder why this "woman", trapped in a man's body, would be considered to be a more beautiful woman than a "real woman".

Are you asking whether there are female-to-male transgenders who undergo surgical gender reassignment? IIRC it requires mechanical means to achieve erection, but it has been done.)

I don't believe the standards of judging the pageant were changed. The male-to-female transgender will be judged by traditional female standards of beauty.

 

[Donjeta]

I don't really understand why it's threatening if a transgendered woman is more beautiful than some other people.

Some women are more beautiful than some other women (in a random person's subjective opinion). Some transgendered women are more beautiful than some other women. What the heck, some men are more beautiful than some women. It's not a problem imo, it's just the way it is.

No "real woman" becomes any less beautiful even if a transgendered woman is a beauty queen. No one loses anything, no one is hurt. (If some "real woman" has an unalienable birthright to win the Miss Universe title I'm sure she will anyway even if a TG woman takes part.)

 

[otto]

Are you asking whether there are female-to-male transgenders who undergo surgical gender reassignment? IIRC it requires mechanical means to achieve erection, but it has been done.)

I don't believe the standards of judging the pageant were changed. The male-to-female transgender will be judged by traditional female standards of beauty.

If traditional standards of beauty were used, a person with a male body type would not be in the competition.

 

[not_my_kids]

I speak from a definite bias here.

Are transgendered people mentally ill, or, for lack of a better term, off their rockers? Maybe. Does having gender reassignment surgery and hormones cause their quality of life to improve? For most of them, yes, as long as they can find inner peace and community tolerance, I say go for it. The same as we tell a depressed person to take a pill, or a restless person to find peace, I see nothing wrong with supporting a transgendered person to seek whatever it is that will make them comfortable in their own skin.

As to the Miss Universe pageant, it's not like there's much natural beauty there to begin with. Now, if it were an all natural pageant, no implants, tucks, collagen, liposuction, reconstructions, dental work, lifts, dyes, sprays, or Latisse allowed, then it would be a little different. But, when you consider that Miss Universe is already full of manufactured women, manufactured smiles, manufactured stories, and manufactured dreams, why are people so up in arms over a couple more manufactured breasts, attached to a mostly plastic human being with no real goals and no real impact on the world? (Sorry, I think my personal views of pageant contestants may have snuck in there at the end.)

 

[AnaTeresa]

And even if it's only "natural" women with no enhancements - why are we judging people based on their appearance? Why are we ranking some as better than others? I personally find the whole concept of pageants incredibly insulting.

 

[Donjeta]

If traditional standards of beauty were used, a person with a male body type would not be in the competition.

Have you seen her?

 

[otto]

Have you seen her?

In my opinion, male/female body type is all about the chromosomes.

 

[Donjeta]

In my opinion, male/female body type is all about the chromosomes.

Well, it's not really, if we're talking about beauty norms. Because you can't see the beauty of the chromosomes, and are not necessarily able to tell what a person's chromosomes are just by looking at their body type. There are people with XY chromosomes you can't tell apart from females with XX chromosomes just by looking at their appearance.

Anatomically and medically it's not all about the chromosomes. Sex differentiation is a complex process and the chromosomes are just a start. Mostly it is about hormones.

All embryos are the same in the beginning, regardless of which chromosomes they've got. In normal fetal development the gonads will start to differentiate and they produce hormones which influence the body development in the fetal stages and are responsible for the changes of body shape later in puberty. But things don't always go normally and there are people who have body characteristics that do not correspond with their chromosomes. If a transgender person has started hormonal treatment early before the pubertal body shape characteristics have developed their body type may very much resemble that of the desired sex. It is obviously hard to reverse the changes that already took place.

 

[Nova]

If traditional standards of beauty were used, a person with a male body type would not be in the competition.

But not all males have a "male body type". And we've already talked about how so many of the contestants (born female or no) transform themselves through artificial means.