Miss Universe to Allow Transgender Contestants

[Nova]

You are arguing something I have not said.
You were the one who brought up the XX chromosomes to muddy the waters - because in truth the XX chromosome disorder is very rare - and if someone diagnosed with xx chromosome had a penis, it would be obviously deformed (for lack of better term) so it would have to be fixed one way or another surgically.

That is entirely different than gender dysphoria which by the very definition is unhappiness with one's gender.

I see now how I erred, Charlie, and I apologize. I was thinking out loud, but left the impression that you had taken the opposite view when you had not. Again, I am sorry.

But I didn't bring up XX chromosomes "to muddy the waters". I was trying to understand. Chromosomes were discussed at length in another thread on this subject and I thought they were relevant, though not necessarily "controlling" as you would seem to have it.

 

[Nova]

It doesn't lie - just like people disassociate from reality, they can dissociate from the body they were born into - that doesn't make the DNA less truthful, it makes it the person's ability to cope with reality the issue.

You know, that precise argument was once accepted regarding homosexuality. But almost no scientist would argue that today. Not because of political correctness, but because of the growing evidence of biological causes for same-sex orientation.

But as for coping with reality, we aren't talking about a delusion here, merely a dissatisfaction. Don't we encourage people who are unhappy with reality to change it? May I assume you would encourage the gender dysphoric to do the same?

 

[Charlie09]

I see now how I erred, Charlie, and I apologize. I was thinking out loud, but left the impression that you had taken the opposite view when you had not. Again, I am sorry.

But I didn't bring up XX chromosomes "to muddy the waters". I was trying to understand. Chromosomes were discussed at length in another thread on this subject and I thought they were relevant, though not necessarily "controlling" as you would seem to have it.

Again, putting extra words into what I'm saying.
It's a little different to try to bring in a chromosomal issue with an unhappiness issue - apples oranges.

 

[Charlie09]

You know, that precise argument was once accepted regarding homosexuality. But almost no scientist would argue that today. Not because of political correctness, but because of the growing evidence of biological causes for same-sex orientation.

But as for coping with reality, we aren't talking about a delusion here, merely a dissatisfaction. Don't we encourage people who are unhappy with reality to change it? May I assume you would encourage the gender dysphoric to do the same?

We aren't talking about homosexuality though, and you know we both know that "that precise" argument is still utilized with some innate sexual attractions. But in this instance we are talking about people unhappy with the essence of who they and with surgery and hormones changing the outside packaging.

When someone cuts themselves, or drugs or drinks themselves into a black hole but it makes them happy - no one really thinks that's a healthy response.

I'm merely pointing out gender reassignment and changing hormones, doesn't really change what scientist would think if DNA were all that was available of a person. They would be classified as the original gender regardless of surgery, or disguise.

.

 

[Allusonz]

NOW I understand. Please don't feel you have to research the test results. I was just trying to understand the connections between chromosomes, hormones and bodies and thought your daughter's genetic testing might shed some light. But most of this is beyond my understanding anyway, so please don't go to any trouble looking for old papers.

Remember it is MY asylum :giggle:

It now has me wondering so I spoke to my DD and asked her if this had come up in recent conversations. It also helps that I am taking the lazy way of doing it and simply phoned one of her main specialists.

Both DD and I now want to know as so much was happening during that time with surgeries, tests, et al

 

[Allusonz]

We aren't talking about homosexuality though, and you know we both know that "that precise" argument is still utilized with some innate sexual attractions. But in this instance we are talking about people unhappy with the essence of who they and with surgery and hormones changing the outside packaging.

When someone cuts themselves, or drugs or drinks themselves into a black hole but it makes them happy - no one really thinks that's a healthy response.

I'm merely pointing out gender reassignment and changing hormones, doesn't really change what scientist would think if DNA were all that was available of a person. They would be classified as the original gender regardless of surgery, or disguise.

.

BBM 1


I would have to disagree.

I will ask again how does one diagnose a baby with depression?

Children are not born with prejudice, racism etc., it is taught whether that be society, parents, peers etc.

BBM 2

I know this in fact to be false. Her birth certificate states female and has from the day she was born....

ETA If she had ultimately chosen to be male we would of had to have the birth certificate legally changed.

 

[Charlie09]

BBM 1


I would have to disagree.

I will ask again how does one diagnose a baby with depression?

Children are not born with prejudice, racism etc., it is taught whether that be society, parents, peers etc.

BBM 2

I know this in fact to be false. Her birth certificate states female and has from the day she was born....

I think you missed a post, I'm not discussing the XX chromosome here either. Clearly that is a biological exception to what we are talking about as far as transgendered.

My understanding is that by DNA your daughter would in fact be female regardless of the surgery that was performed.

 

[Allusonz]

I think you missed a post, I'm not discussing the XX chromosome here either. Clearly that is a biological exception to what we are talking about as far as transgendered.

My understanding is that by DNA your daughter would in fact be female regardless of the surgery that was performed.

My daughter by DNA definitions is MALE.

 

[Charlie09]

My daughter by DNA definitions is MALE.

and this is the xx male syndrome?

or was the other poster incorrect in what was originally posted?
At any rate, there is no evidence at all that the transgendered miss universe contestant suffers from a chromosomal disorders.

 

[AnaTeresa]

Depression and DNA are apples and oranges in this context.
DNA does not lie about gender regardless of surgical changes or hormones. It always refers to the original design.

Gender is mainly a social construct built around a few biological differences. Gender really isn't DNA at all. Sex is, but gender is a big ball sociology wax.

 

[Donjeta]

The main thing I wonder about is, if someone wants to be male and has XX chromosomes, or female while in the possession of XY, why should anyone care? No offense intended to anybody, I'm sure everybody here has the prettiest and the most intelligent chromosomes available, but your chromosomes make very little difference to me in my daily life. I see people how they present themselves. So let's say there is a discrepancy in the way you look and what you want to be and what your chromosomes say. Why would I care?

 

[Charlie09]

Gender is mainly a social construct built around a few biological differences. Gender really isn't DNA at all. Sex is, but gender is a big ball sociology wax.

ah, those pesty few biological differences.
The social experiments we've seen actually do indicate there is more than biological body part differences.

 

[AnaTeresa]

ah, those pesty few biological differences.
The social experiments we've seen actually do indicate there is more than biological body part differences.

Again, there is a difference between gender and sex. Your original statement was talking about DNA and gender, which was incorrect, given that gender is a social construct. The biological differences you speak of relate to sex.

 

[Nova]

Again, putting extra words into what I'm saying.
It's a little different to try to bring in a chromosomal issue with an unhappiness issue - apples oranges.

What? You didn't say that sex is entirely determined by chromosomes? That XX and XY are real, while gender dysphoria is a problem in perceiving reality?

Here's part of the quote to which I refer:

DNA always tells the truth though...
My understanding is - XX Chromosomes by DNA would show female even if the sexual organs didn't agree.

To me- DNA is "real"....

I merely said that you seem to believe that chromosomes are the "controlling" determinant on the issue of sex. Is that incorrect? (Because, honestly, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. When I made a mistake, it was an honest one; I was happy to own it and apologize.)

 

[Nova]

We aren't talking about homosexuality though, and you know we both know that "that precise" argument is still utilized with some innate sexual attractions. But in this instance we are talking about people unhappy with the essence of who they and with surgery and hormones changing the outside packaging.

When someone cuts themselves, or drugs or drinks themselves into a black hole but it makes them happy - no one really thinks that's a healthy response.

I'm merely pointing out gender reassignment and changing hormones, doesn't really change what scientist would think if DNA were all that was available of a person. They would be classified as the original gender regardless of surgery, or disguise.

.

Fine. But my point is that subjective impressions (including gender identity and sexual attraction) are also "real". And increasingly, scientists are finding objectively identifiable biological causes for such impressions.

 

[Nova]

and this is the xx male syndrome?

or was the other poster incorrect in what was originally posted?
At any rate, there is no evidence at all that the transgendered miss universe contestant suffers from a chromosomal disorders.

Charlie, I merely intended to ask Allusonz whether the "xx male syndrome" applied to her daughter. I'm sorry if my question seemed to be an assertion.

(I've tried to say more than once than I am seriously out of my area of expertise here. No one should take any of my posts as gospel.)

 

[Donjeta]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/47509...der-beauty-contestant-wins-miss-congeniality/
A transgender Canadian beauty contestant who was initially disqualified from taking part in the Miss Universe Canada pageant because she was not a "naturally born female" failed to win the crown but was awarded the title of Miss Congeniality.

Jenna Talackova, a tall blonde who underwent gender-reassignment surgery at age 19 and holds legal documents affirming her identity as a woman, made it into the top 12 in the Miss Universe Canada pageant on Saturday night in Toronto.

 

[PeteyGirl]

. . . But in this instance we are talking about people unhappy with the essence of who they and with surgery and hormones changing the outside packaging.

When someone cuts themselves, or drugs or drinks themselves into a black hole but it makes them happy - no one really thinks that's a healthy response.

I'm merely pointing out gender reassignment and changing hormones, doesn't really change what scientist would think if DNA were all that was available of a person. They would be classified as the original gender regardless of surgery, or disguise.

.

Making a comparison between gender dysphoric people seeking gender reassignment surgery with

"someone who cuts themselves, or drugs or drinks themselves in a black hole that makes them happy . . ."

I cringe at it, personally, but it seems to be a fairly common sentiment. I do live in southwest Washington state, so perhaps that accounts for it.

I am "related" to a woman who was born male by marriage to one of my children. This will sound sappy but I love her with a twist: I call her daughter/she calls me Mom, and I feel the same motherly anxiousness toward her as I do my own adult children, and my kids are old enough to have brought A LOT of prospects home to Mom. I deeply respect and feel a kind of scary amount of protectiveness of her. Her surgery (long planned and saved for) was after I met her, and after my child was clearly head over heels in love and that was that, amen.

A scientist would say my daughter-in-law is genetically an XY male. My daughter-in-law is so feminine that finally accepting she is genetically male took weeks of plowing through my own mental stuff. She is slender, with a soft, non-voluptuous body (with a propensity for joyful nudity -- I'm used to it).

My final conclusion? "God" (or our limited understanding of genetic expression) really, massively, profoundly, and wrongly had this precious young woman born with a penis. Sorry!! No wonder she had to get rid of it.

Also in service to my more medical side, what very basic understanding I do have has me being thirsty to know more. I was a psychiatric nurse for 17 years. I worked with delusion and lack of respect OR contact with reality as a career as an RN. After a while, we develop instincts, like any one does. Patients and acquaintances and finally a beloved daughter in some stage of recovery from gender dysphoria has skewed my view, perhaps, but I hope it gives me a special insight. My daughter in law is FEMALE and her XY chromosomes are incidental.

I sincerely believe once you meet and grow close to a member of those "minorities, the fact that their dilemma has so many parallels and similarities to whatever the media or prevailing political/religious/psychosocial viewpoint calls "normal", a whole paradigm can be upset. And I deeply hope that it is and will be.