Mitigating - Aggravating Factors- General Information the penalty phase

[logicalgirl]

About the blood money portion of the possible aggravated circumstances, I don't know how they would word that. Casey didn't kill Caylee for money, she just happened to fall backwards into money afterwards. It wasn't done specifically for gain. Casey never intended anyone to find out about it - EVER - so where would the intent for gain be?

I think you are right Gnatcatcher - the money portion can't be used because money wasn't one of the reasons this crime was committed. At least that we know of. ICA wasn't paid to kill Caylee, ICA didn't receive an inheritance because of it, she wasn't killing a business partner so she could have a bigger piece of the pie, etc.

I like your phrase - fell backwards into money afterwards. It's good.

 

[logicalgirl]

BBM
IF that did occur it would be very interesting to hear what their response would be on the stand.
If Casey's allegation was a lie, one or both could "throw themselves under the bus" in order to save Casey from the DP.
I agree that it will be introduced during the penalty phase...

At the time they testify - they won't know if ICA will be found guilty or innocent. Why would they throw themselves under the bus at that stage? Especially so they could carry a life time stigma if it isn't true.

Can you imagine Mallory being married to Lee and having his children if he admitted to that to save his lying murdering sister? Would his kids as they got older think that was a brave and honorable thing to do?

There is no testifying during the penalty phase, at least as I understand it.

 

[logicalgirl]

One more thing strikes me as I think about family members who may throw themselves under the "Bus" to save ICA from LWOP or the DP.

I've always thought although the family is clearly covering up, manipulating, and on and on - that in their heart of hearts, they cannot accept and truly believe ICA is guilty. I think they desperately hope she is innocent and this has been a huge mistake by the SA, and OCSD.

When the medal hits the road, will they not be forced into the reality of knowing FOR SURE that ICA is guilty, when she blames things on them they know are not true? I mean, never mind the evidence, but the stuff they know for sure is not true. Will that be when they get it? Finally?

 

[Intermezzo]

At the time they testify - they won't know if ICA will be found guilty or innocent. Why would they throw themselves under the bus at that stage? Especially so they could carry a life time stigma if it isn't true.

Can you imagine Mallory being married to Lee and having his children if he admitted to that to save his lying murdering sister? Would his kids as they got older think that was a brave and honorable thing to do?

There is no testifying during the penalty phase, at least as I understand it.

That's why I agree that If introduced it will be during the penalty phase.

 

[Intermezzo]

One more thing strikes me as I think about family members who may throw themselves under the "Bus" to save ICA from LWOP or the DP.

I've always thought although the family is clearly covering up, manipulating, and on and on - that in their heart of hearts, they cannot accept and truly believe ICA is guilty. I think they desperately hope she is innocent and this has been a huge mistake by the SA, and OCSD.
When the medal hits the road, will they not be forced into the reality of knowing FOR SURE that ICA is guilty, when she blames things on them they know are not true? I mean, never mind the evidence, but the stuff they know for sure is not true. Will that be when they get it? Finally?

BBM
I agree with you on that

On the last question...I would say Lee would..but I have a feeling the answer would be No in regards to Cindy and George.

 

[autumnlover]

BBM
I am wondering, IF they do introduce the alleged sexual molestation as a mitigating factor would or could that trigger a criminal investigation involving George and Lee?

Would the defense have to have some sort of proof? :waitasec:

What could be the future ramifications for Lee and George IF the alleged sexual molestation was introduced in court?

I wonder the same thing. I'm pretty sure it would trigger an investigation, but our WS lawyers would know. I don't believe the defense has to have proof. An allegation is enough for the police to start investigating so I think it would be enough to use as a mitigating factor. However, since Casey has absolutely no credibility whatsoever there's no telling how this would play out. I imagine they would have psychologists testify that she displays all the symptoms of an abused child.

 

[Macushla]

BBM
I am wondering, IF they do introduce the alleged sexual molestation as a mitigating factor would or could that trigger a criminal investigation involving George and Lee?

Would the defense have to have some sort of proof? :waitasec:

What could be the future ramifications for Lee and George IF the alleged sexual molestation was introduced in court?

Is there a statute of limitations on charges like these or not? I think a complaint would have to be made to OCSO before a criminal investigation is launched. I don't see anyone, including KC, being anxious to make a complaint - or it would have been done by now.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I wonder the same thing. I'm pretty sure it would trigger an investigation, but our WS lawyers would know. I don't believe the defense has to have proof. An allegation is enough for the police to start investigating so I think it would be enough to use as a mitigating factor. However, since Casey has absolutely no credibility whatsoever there's no telling how this would play out. I imagine they would have psychologists testify that she displays all the symptoms of an abused child.

It didn't help Susan Smith at all... these abuse allegations seem to mainly arise when blame shifting is called for, not before.

 

[Harmony 2]

It didn't help Susan Smith at all... these abuse allegations seem to mainly arise when blame shifting is called for, not before.

In Susan Smith's case there was documentation of the abuse since she was in high school...

Susan filed a compliant against Bev that was investigated by the South Carolina Department of Social Services and the Union County sheriff's office. Linda contacted Susan's guidance counselor and obtained the name of a family counselor. Bev, Linda and Susan only went for family counseling four or five times before discontinuing the sessions. While the matter was being investigated, Bev agreed to move out of the family's home, but returned a short time later.

During Susan's murder trial, it was revealed that the abuse never stopped. According to Seymour Halleck, the defense's psychiatric expert, "the family seemed to blame Susan as much as Bev." The family was concerned that stories about the sexual abuse would spread into the community and they blamed Susan for worsening the situation by making it public and reporting it to the Department of Social Services.

In February 1988, Susan was seventeen and sought out her guidance counselor, Camille Stribling for advice. Susan told Stribling that her stepfather had been molesting her. Stribling was required by law to report the sexual abuse allegations to the South Carolina State Department of Social Services. An official in that department called the Union County sheriff's office.

Records from the Union County sheriff's office indicate that in March 1988, Susan reported an incident of sexual molestation by her stepfather to her high school guidance counselor and to her mother. Linda told officials from the sheriff's office that when she confronted Bev, he had not denied that the incident of abuse had occurred. The Department of Social Services sent a caseworker to interview Susan, Susan's guidance counselor and several of Susan's teachers. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/smith/susan_3.html

Moreover, her stepfather testified in open court and admitted to the sexual abuse. In the Anthony case, we have not seen any documentation whatsoever and are having to rely on the word of a known pathological liar. The Anthony's have publicly stated, through their attorney, that the abuse allegations are false so it appears that they will not be admitting it in court testimony.

 

[whiteangora]

In Susan Smith's case there was documentation of the abuse since she was in high school...



Moreover, her stepfather testified in open court and admitted to the sexual abuse. In the Anthony case, we have not seen any documentation whatsoever and are having to rely on the word of a known pathological liar. The Anthony's have publicly stated, through their attorney, that the abuse allegations are false so it appears that they will not be admitting it in court testimony.

I wonder how far they will really go to save their DD's life it it comes right down to it. Which would Cindy choose, Casey's life or her dream world of her perfect family?

 

[Leila]

I think the defense will be introducing and reinforcing mitigating factors all through the trial, long before the penalty phase.

KC appeareance will be geared to generate sympathy in the jury. She will be thin and waif like, primly dressed and properly behaved, making it hard for the jury to 'see' a woman capable of killing anything, much less her own child.KC will be coached to produce tears and woeful looks at appropriate moments during testimony.

In cross examination, the defense will manage to imply that LE was picking on poor defenseless KC and that she was afraid of them. Too afraid to talk.

The defense will also manage to introduce references to KC's questionable home life, especially with CA and with the alleged abuse. Without calling one mental health expert, they will portray KC as a victim.

None of this will be called mitigation but it will gradually be conditioning the jury to be sympathetic to KC and will hopefully spare her a guilty verdict. If the guilty verdict is given, then they have already laid the groundwork for no DP from this jury.

Mitigation doesn't begin in the penalty phase. It has already begun. J Baez has already stated on national tv...the state is trying to kill my client.

I agree that Casey will be coached on her appearance and how to react to testimony with tears and expressions of distress, but I'm not sure Casey is capable of maintaining composure.

When prosecution attorney, Ashton described what Caylee's final moments may have been like, the microphone picked up Casey whispering to JB, "Make him stop!"

Narcissists can't stand exposure. There's going to be a parade of witnesses take the witness stand and testify to the lies Casey told them. The witnesses will include Jesse, Tony, Amy, Ricardo, Annie, Christina, Kio, and many others Casey counted as friends. I can't see Casey maintaining composure when she sees her former friends and lovers expose her for what she is. She will see this as betrayal and it will be difficult, if not impossible, to contain her rage.

We all saw the video of the jail visit between Casey and her parents (August 2008) when Casey became enraged, clenching her fists and saying, "no one lets me talk! I'm so frustrated!" She threatened to leave. I think that sometime during the trial, we're going to see a similar angry outburst.

 

[Leila]

Honestly - I really don't think (e) will fly.

Do you remember the woman who was so abused by her husband in New York - so much so she was unrecognizable? She and her husband caused the death of her six year old daughter? She was so under control of her husband that when he told her not to call for help for her daughter who was obviously dying, she didn't and couldn't because she was so abused she couldn't make a decision for herself.

And there was no threat to Casey's life under the so-called controlling domination by Cindy - at all. On one of the threads there is a whole paper about what mitigating factors with actual court cases - this just wouldn't apply. They are talking about mental retardation, etc. not a mother like Cindy.

I hope the prosecution at some point plays those jail house tapes where Casey is *****ing at her parents and they are definitely cowed by her and her words, and her temper tantrum. No way was Cindy running the show in that house!

Oops mods, for the word that was **** ed out!

(e) The defendant acted under extreme duress or under the substantial domination of another person. I was thinking in terms of the alleged fight between Cindy and Casey on June 15th. I would pinpoint that as a moment in time where Cindy's domination caused a rage that couldn't be contained - extreme duress as a result of domination of another person. You have a good point about Casey having her parents cowed by her temper tantrum. They were walking on egg shells at that point. I think that Cindy did dominate Casey her entire life, but there were often moments when Casey would break and throw a temper tantrum, creating a break in the domination.

 

[autumnlover]

I wonder how far they will really go to save their DD's life it it comes right down to it. Which would Cindy choose, Casey's life or her dream world of her perfect family?

That's another thing I wonder about. I could just picture CA telling GA to admit to it to save Casey's butt. If it's not true, the depth of sickness in this family would be unfathomable.

 

[countzero]

(e) The defendant acted under extreme duress or under the substantial domination of another person. I was thinking in terms of the alleged fight between Cindy and Casey on June 15th. I would pinpoint that as a moment in time where Cindy's domination caused a rage that couldn't be contained - extreme duress as a result of domination of another person. You have a good point about Casey having her parents cowed by her temper tantrum. They were walking on egg shells at that point. I think that Cindy did dominate Casey her entire life, but there were often moments when Casey would break and throw a temper tantrum, creating a break in the domination.

That family, using the term very loosely, is dysfunctional, period. I didn't view CA or GA cowed by inmate Anthony. I saw three experienced liars. Each taking their turn at being passive-aggressive and all three scared one of them would blow the coverup.

They all knew they were being video taped. It was all show for the media.

Too bad the state can't get a mitigation specialist to evaluate CA, GA and LA.

 

[USARDOG]

You have a good point about Casey having her parents cowed by her temper tantrum. They were walking on egg shells at that point. I think that Cindy did dominate Casey her entire life, but there were often moments when Casey would break and throw a temper tantrum, creating a break in the domination.

Your post edited for brevity.

I believe also what you saw was C & G A playing nice because they thought they might be able to get some information from KC about where little Caylee was. I don't believe at this time that the reality of her death had sunk in yet, so they were walking far lighter than I believe they normally would have. IOM, normally, CA would have screamed right back at KC.

 

[logicalgirl]

(e) The defendant acted under extreme duress or under the substantial domination of another person. I was thinking in terms of the alleged fight between Cindy and Casey on June 15th. I would pinpoint that as a moment in time where Cindy's domination caused a rage that couldn't be contained - extreme duress as a result of domination of another person. You have a good point about Casey having her parents cowed by her temper tantrum. They were walking on egg shells at that point. I think that Cindy did dominate Casey her entire life, but there were often moments when Casey would break and throw a temper tantrum, creating a break in the domination.

I understand most posters think Cindy was domineering and controlling - and I would agree, but only to a certain point. This was a young woman who continued to lie to her mother, neglected her child no matter what her mother said to her, stole from her, stole from her grandmother, lied to her father and was abusive, stole from her brother, stayed out until 3 in the morning with no qualms, changed boyfriends like most of us change our sheets, and stole from her supposed best friend.

Casey may have been having a huge temper tantrum after a screaming match with Cindy and stormed off, dragging Caylee with her, but you will have to do a lot more convincing before I will believe Cindy dominated ICA. It is much more like Cindy worked and provided for her, cleaned her house, prepared her meals, did her laundry, and cared for her child while Casey did what she pleased.

I believe when people act so despicable and absolutely obnoxious like Cindy did in the Gonzales deposition, it is because they feel powerless, not powerful. It's all mouth and no action.

PS, my apologies, I discovered there are witnesses during the penalty non-mitigation phase of the trial.

 

[countzero]

I wonder how far they will really go to save their DD's life it it comes right down to it. Which would Cindy choose, Casey's life or her dream world of her perfect family?

Well, considering what we now know almost two years later about CA, she would and is doing everything in her power, saving her dream world.

From reading SP's emails and her interview with LE, CA has covered for her daughter for a long, long time.

CA has chosen to commit perjury rather than acknowledge her part and inmate anthonys role in Caylee's murder. CA was not about to let inmate Anthony ruin her "perfect life" by turning in her daughter. She, along with GA were not about the glass windows of the A compound come crashing in, exploding about them. No, it was far easier in her mind to create a cover up story, ever changing, to keep up appearances. Besides, in her world she had mounds of experience "cleaning up after inmate Anthony".

Return to RP's interview and emails and all makes sense.

 

[logicalgirl]

Well, considering what we now know almost two years later about CA, she would and is doing everything in her power, saving her dream world.

From reading SP's emails and her interview with LE, CA has covered for her daughter for a long, long time.

CA has chosen to commit perjury rather than acknowledge her part and inmate anthonys role in Caylee's murder. CA was not about to let inmate Anthony ruin her "perfect life" by turning in her daughter. She, along with GA were not about the glass windows of the A compound come crashing in, exploding about them. No, it was far easier in her mind to create a cover up story, ever changing, to keep up appearances. Besides, in her world she had mounds of experience "cleaning up after inmate Anthony".

Return to RP's interview and emails and all makes sense.

Absolutely agree with you counterzero - no argument from me there! I agree Cindy wanted a perfect world - something to justify all the hard work she did, and to justify how completely frustrating ICA was to her - going through life like a destructive swath through Cindy's life and the life of the family no matter what Cindy did.

I think Cindy screamed at ICA and lost control simply because in her mind she gave so much and it got her nowhere with ICA, who still stole from her, her mother (grandmother) and father( grandfather) and then ultimately, killed her grand daughter. Cindy has a screw up good for nothing husband, an odd son, and an out of control daughter. She must be going mad saying to herself, what the hell was all that for - all my sacrifice? Nothing? All those wasted years, blah blah.

Don't think for a minute I am sticking up for Cindy or think she is anything but a miserable conniving horrible woman who hasn't had the courage to stand up for her grand daughter, but chose to defend her daughter who had been charged and I believe will be ultimately be convicted of this vicious and cruel crime. I'm not - But in a small way I pity her - while acknowledging her stupidity and lack of self control. Yes, I believe she and ICA has knock down drag out top of their lungs fights, but domineering and controlling? Cindy should be so lucky to have been able to pull off either or both with ICA. IMO she was powerless and chose to vent her frustration in a form of childish raging.

 

[Leila]

I understand most posters think Cindy was domineering and controlling - and I would agree, but only to a certain point. This was a young woman who continued to lie to her mother, neglected her child no matter what her mother said to her, stole from her, stole from her grandmother, lied to her father and was abusive, stole from her brother, stayed out until 3 in the morning with no qualms, changed boyfriends like most of us change our sheets, and stole from her supposed best friend.

Casey may have been having a huge temper tantrum after a screaming match with Cindy and stormed off, dragging Caylee with her, but you will have to do a lot more convincing before I will believe Cindy dominated ICA. It is much more like Cindy worked and provided for her, cleaned her house, prepared her meals, did her laundry, and cared for her child while Casey did what she pleased.

I believe when people act so despicable and absolutely obnoxious like Cindy did in the Gonzales deposition, it is because they feel powerless, not powerful. It's all mouth and no action.

PS, my apologies, I discovered there are witnesses during the penalty non-mitigation phase of the trial.

Logicalgirl..............I see your point. I can see where (e) The defendant acted under extreme duress or under the substantial domination of another person - would be difficult for the defense to prove if, in fact, it can be shown that Casey was the one who was in control of that household.

For the last two years, we've all witnessed the control and dominance Cindy has over George and Lee. I would assume that she also had control and dominance over Casey, at least during Casey's early childhood into her teenage years.

I think it's very possible that when Casey was a teenager, she started defying her mother's dominance, purposely and willfully defying Cindy's control. That may have been when the real battle ground was created. It would have been an ongoing battle with Cindy attempting to regain control of Casey, while at the same time, Casey defied every attempt by Cindy to control her.

The alleged fight on July 15th could have been just one more battle in Cindy's fight for control and Casey's defiance. But, I do feel it was a pivotal moment. Casey was enraged and killed Caylee during that rage, taking Caylee away from Cindy forever. I think it was premeditated, and she had thought about doing away with Caylee prior to that night. I think the prosecution will pursue this angle.

 

[logicalgirl]

Logicalgirl..............I see your point. I can see where (e) The defendant acted under extreme duress or under the substantial domination of another person - would be difficult for the defense to prove if, in fact, it can be shown that Casey was the one who was in control of that household.

For the last two years, we've all witnessed the control and dominance Cindy has over George and Lee. I would assume that she also had control and dominance over Casey, at least during Casey's early childhood into her teenage years.

I think it's very possible that when Casey was a teenager, she started defying her mother's dominance, purposely and willfully defying Cindy's control. That may have been when the real battle ground was created. It would have been an ongoing battle with Cindy attempting to regain control of Casey, while at the same time, Casey defied every attempt by Cindy to control her.

The alleged fight on July 15th could have been just one more battle in Cindy's fight for control and Casey's defiance. But, I do feel it was a pivotal moment. Casey was enraged and killed Caylee during that rage, taking Caylee away from Cindy forever. I think it was premeditated, and she had thought about doing away with Caylee prior to that night. I think the prosecution will pursue this angle.

Yes, I agree with you. However I think it took a horrific deed for Lee and George to step into line with Cindy, and probably because both were shellshocked at what Casey has done. Of course we don't actually know Cindy is controlling Lee, because he has been nowhere to be seen in the last year and he was pretty frank about ICA being a liar etc. George appears to be towing the line, but was in some weird sort of relationship with River, and gave his grand juror testimony without Cindy's "approval". So on the surface it looks like Cindy is in control, which is par for the course, but is she actually? I think everyone is just going around her instead.

Somebody please tell Cindy - it is over - give up trying to save face - or is this all that is keeping you glued together and without it are you going to break into a million pieces?

Also for me - to make Cindy domineering and over controlling makes ICA a victim and I will NEVER go there!