Found Deceased MN - Alayna Ertl, 5, Watkins, 20 Aug 2016 *Arrest*

  • #401
I agree, Safeguard.

I think it's great to trust your instincts. If someone gives you a bad vibe...trust that. But there are plenty of perfectly normal people who never give off that vibe...and they end up being "the bad guy." Like a local pediatrician, trusted for DECADES, by many many people. You just never know.

I also think it's really wrong when someone automatically assumes someone is a pervert based on their profession.

That's okay ... I'm not worried about offending anyone. My trust is earned. If I get an off feeling about someone, anyone, no matter their profession, you'd better believe my guard is going to be up. I watch and can read people easily. And it's not just things like being perverted, I've known things about people, secret things, that I should not have known, but somehow I just KNEW. It's creepy sometimes, but also very helpful.

ETA: My kids pediatrician always bothered me, so I stopped taking them. He turned out to be a pedo. Go figure.
 
  • #402
When I was younger I use to not always listen to that little voice pointing out the dangers that were there, I often thought I was being silly or paranoid. After an incident with an ex and another gas station encounter I started listening more carefully. However, since having my daughter, I no longer care about being rude, silly or paranoid. My husband says I've gone "full mom" and that's fine by me! In fact he was on a hunting trip recently, and there was a fire nearby, when he saw a park ranger coming to approach them he told me he expected them to ask if he was Josh and tell him to leave LOL! But we do need to all listen to that voice, it could save our lives or our children's, and worst case scenario you feel a bit foolish from time to time, a small price to pay.
 
  • #403
"Laser Scan" Hahaha! Love it!

I think many of us are very attuned pick up on, sometimes nearly imperceptible, clues from those who trigger a deep awareness, (Conscious, or unconscious), of *something* we've dealt with in the past.

I can not tolerate being in the the presence of an active drug abuser. Doesn't matter if their high at the time, I am just jumping out of my skin, if I am around them for any length of time. ( and I have had to work with some!). I don't have to be told, or see anything. ( they do not ALL look stereotypical, some would fit right in, at a Sunday Morning church service.) I just react as if my nervous system is being strummed like a harp. I can't always name the subtle sensory input, that I am responding to; a slight scent, sound, movement ect...but I have come to respect, that I am (what I refer to as), highly allergic to these people.

But...I have been wrong. On, (however rare), occasion an individual will not trigger me, and I have been astonished to learn they abuse drugs. (Thats a problem). Or a person has triggered me, and I later learn, they do not even use drugs at all! ( also concerning).

We all view the present through the filter of our past experiences. And yes, our point of view, and reactions to things, will definitely be colored in the various shades of our personal histories. The danger is that we will sometimes try and assimilate, very small pieces, ( or even unfamiliar pieces!), of *data* to fit our existing schemas, with sometimes very dire outcomes.

There are also those who have Malignant "Perception". (probably not a thing, just made the term up, just now for use in this example!)

When my 32yr old son was four, it was 1989 and he was enamored of Scooby-Doo. They came out with some, ( Scooby) underthings for boys, called Under-Roos. So we bought him some.
He ran to try them on, and came out to show us how they fit. He was so delighted! (Still makes me smile all these many years later LOL!). While he was showing us I saw a huge lump, the size of a large egg, at the top of his pubic bone, on the right side. "Come here a minute"... "what's is that"...he says, " Oh...Thats just my bone, it pops out sometimes. I can push it back in, watch". He procceds to push said "lump" back in...

I knew then he had a hernia. Had no idea how bad that was, but I wasn't taking any chances. I took him to the ER, to have it examined. The Dr. took the briefest of looks at him and then she turned to GLARE at me, and said. "He does NOT have a hernia.

I said, Yes he does. I saw, I felt it. Can I get someone else see him please?
As she was arguing with me, another Dr. happened by the room, and he stopped in and said, what's up? So I quickly explained... he turned to Dr. All-parents-are-pedophiles, and said, "Do you mind if I take a look?", She said, "Be my guest. but he does not have a hernia!" Dr. Knows-what-he's-doing, examined my son, more thoroughly, asked him to cough and such. Like two minutes later, he comes out and says, Oh yes he DOES have a hernia. And it's a really BIG one too. He'll need a repair.

Dr. Pedo's-R-You, turns to me with her withering, accusatory gaze and said, "SO, tell me again, exactly how did YOU find this hernia?! (Oh my god my blood ran cold!), I tell her "how" and she goes, "Oh REALLY?" You expect me to believe THAT? Dr. Must-have-seen-this-from-her-before, turns to her and said, almost under his breath, "Just stop it. Right NOW".

My son had surgery the next morning, and a nurse came up to me as they were taking him, and said, "We can tell you take really good care of him'. I was so grateful for that remark, I almost cried. I often wonder if word got around, and she felt bad for us...

it's a grave injustice... a terrifying, hauntingly painful thing... to be falsely accused. (even briefly, as in my case).
We all need to use our best judgement, to be sure, but closed minded, tunnel vision can cause great harm.

What a horrible story! I think a lot of parents get the side eye ... or in your case, evil eye ... from doctors. I just hope they do something about the REAL cases. I'm the same way around drug users ... it is very intense and uncomfortable. It's not the same with alcoholics, though. Most people in my extended family are HEAVY drinkers (happy, easy-going...not mean drunks), so I guess I'm more accustomed to that.
 
  • #404
and not being neat as a pin and well coiffed doesn't make you an awful person either, id like to add.

I agree, Safeguard.

I think it's great to trust your instincts. If someone gives you a bad vibe...trust that. But there are plenty of perfectly normal people who never give off that vibe...and they end up being "the bad guy." Like a local pediatrician, trusted for DECADES, by many many people. You just never know.

I also think it's really wrong when someone automatically assumes someone is a pervert based on their profession.
 
  • #405
and not being neat as a pin and well coiffed doesn't make you an awful person either, id like to add.

Of course not. But in my personal experience, being in the ministry, I do believe there is a great deal of truth in "Cleanliness is next to Godliness." We deal with drug addicts, domestic issues, abuse cases of all forms, all manner of addictions. In general, people who appear to be in disarray often, not always, have lives that are also in disarray. I can only speak to what I have learned in my own experiences dealing with people, and what I have discerned of life in general over 41 years. It's just an indicator that gives me pause (allowing considerations for age, health, etc.). Have you ever seen pictures inside of Anthony Sowell's home, where he was living with decomposing bodies? He is only one example. Still ... these two cases / men come to mind and prove that it's not a foregone conclusion, but only my personal observation.

BTK was very neat and meticulous, demanding, precise
Gary Ridgeway (GRK) was very neat

Feel free to add others.
 
  • #406
I have not yet seen the parents of this child, but I would benture to say that they are younger people. (just guessing) We know some really good younger parents, but unfortunatly that is not the norm these days.
I have no problem that the dad was out drinking or even that he had company and was drinking. Its not my thing, but responsible adults sometimes have a drink. What I would really like to know, is just how well these people knew this person. Why there was so much trust. I agree with Sloane7777, rather or not I thought the person was a perv or not, my children would still be with me. Furthurmore, I would not have anyone in my house that I thought was a perv.
My neighbor for 15 years now still tells people about the 1st time we met. In so many words, I explained that I had 3 children(at the time) and that I don't know him and he don't know me, and not to take it the wrong way, but we can be good neighbors, Ill respect your boundries and you respect mine, and I made it very clear that when it comes to my kids, I do not have an off button. I have good shovel and we still ahve plenty of woods. I made a point to tell him when he grinned that it was not a joke and his brow dropped a little and he looked puzzled. I asked if he had kids, he responded yes, and I simply told him that he shouldnt be offended as I had already stated and that he should be having the same conversation with me. He understood. We have been good friends and neighbors for 15 years now, and he has often told me and others that he felt secure knowing that somene like that lived next door. That's part of the problem these days. Everyone is afraid of offending someone. Im an easy going person. Theres not much I wouldnt do for others in need if anything. Im not always so serious, but when I comes to my kids, the last thing im worried about it offending someone. That being the case, I would bet that if a few more parents had this conversations with friends, neighbors, or anyone who is around those kids, some victims would still be alive today, or would not have been assaulted. Those type of people are betting on you not wanting to offend them. They are looking for a soft target. Self preservation is inharrant in us and those people will take their chances with prison, but often would opt out of a situation where they know they won't make it that far if they get cought.

I understand what your saying... I'm imagining how that would work in my world:

"Hi, you're Safeguard's LO's math teacher this year right? Nice to meet you!
Just want to make you aware, that when it comes to my kid, I don't have an off switch... So... watch yourself around my kid cause if you don't, I have good shovels and plenty of woods.... No. seriously... You respect my boundaries or I'll bury you out in the Lower forty!" Lol.

I don't know... comes off a bit... Psycho.
don't ya think? I am all for not being all PC, and I tend to very blunt myself, yet it would seriously alarm me if a new neighbor introduced himself that way.

You can't run around threatening people right?

You do make a good point about predators looking for a " Soft Target" though. Indeed they do...
 
  • #407
Wow - I've been trying to clean up all day (3 kids & an incontinent dog) and I've come back to some serious food for thought.
For more than 15 years my parents kept my brother's serious problems from me (and everyone else.) He was in middle school when he started acting out and it turns out his piano lessons were actually therapy sessions. Those therapy sessions didn't stop him from bringing a loaded gun to high school. His intent was suicide - the object of his affections didn't return the sentiment. That couldn't be swept under the rug and off he went to a month-long inpatient program. My parents told everyone he was admitted due to the pressure of being "gifted and talented."
In my early 30's and by sheer coincidence I learned my Irish twin had a decade-long meth habit. The ugly truth sent me to Nar-Anon and those fine folks helped me put together the puzzle pieces. In summary, my parents were too embarrassed to acknowledge their son's issues. They had a place in the "froo froo" life and clearly didn't want to jeopardize that standing. So I have to wonder how much more there is known to ZA other than the incident with the neighbor. Had Alayna's parents known about his early sexual aggression would Mom have allowed ZA to sleep over?
My 2nd thought is this: You can be as street smart as the best of them. When you have small children and incredibly long days all that intuition and 'knowing' can go right out the window.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #408
I understand what your saying... I'm imagining how that would work in my world:

"Hi, you're Safeguard's LO's math teacher this year right? Nice to meet you!
Just want to make you aware, that when it comes to my kid, I don't have an off switch... So... watch yourself around my kid cause if you don't, I have good shovels and plenty of woods.... No. seriously... You respect my boundaries or I'll bury you out in the Lower forty!" Lol.

I don't know... comes off a bit... Psycho.
don't ya think? I am all for not being all PC, and I tend to very blunt myself, yet it would seriously alarm me if a new neighbor introduced himself that way...

You do make a good point about predators looking for a " Soft Target" though. Indeed they do...

Long story short and oddly enough, my friends and I were just having a similar conversation about self-protection. Not about protecting our kids but about protecting ourselves. Especially as we get older. I have a friend who's father was, well a very, well let's say he was paid to get very physically aggressive with people on given occasions. This was in the 50's and 60's. LONG ago. The conversation turned to the fact that often times you NEVER know who you really are talking to and what they are really capable of.

I'm with you, I think approaching a new neighbor with "Hello, I have lots of shovels and woods and you better watch out!" Where I come from?? Would not have gone over well. The more I read that post I'm thinking about a specific relative of mine and seeing him in that scenario and he's like a rabid dog on a loose chain. If someone said that to him he'd just "GO", he wouldn't even wait for more conversation..

Ok to be vigilant, not ok to add to the situation.
 
  • #409
  • #410
  • #411
  • #412
My Daughter and I have always had to share a room, it's large and nice...But we have grumbled and complained about that at times.
I am so very grateful we share that room now.
Honestly I don't know how people cope. I didn't even know the child and I am broken.
 
  • #413
  • #414
That's okay ... I'm not worried about offending anyone. My trust is earned. If I get an off feeling about someone, anyone, no matter their profession, you'd better believe my guard is going to be up. I watch and can read people easily. And it's not just things like being perverted, I've known things about people, secret things, that I should not have known, but somehow I just KNEW. It's creepy sometimes, but also very helpful.

ETA: My kids pediatrician always bothered me, so I stopped taking them. He turned out to be a pedo. Go figure.

I am not sure if you quite understood the point of my post. It was that sometimes, even people who seem good are bad. And I'm sure some that seem bad...are actually good. I listen to my gut, for sure. But no one's gut is infallible. So you can't just assume that because you DON'T get a bad vibe from someone then they must be okay. I'm sure Alayna's parents didn't get a bad vibe from this freak. Is that their fault? Nope. Sometimes people can fool even those close to them.

I listen to my gut. But I also allow my opinion to change over time as I learn more about people. If I didn't...I guess I would just live alone in the woods never trusting anyone.

Of course not. But in my personal experience, being in the ministry, I do believe there is a great deal of truth in "Cleanliness is next to Godliness." We deal with drug addicts, domestic issues, abuse cases of all forms, all manner of addictions. In general, people who appear to be in disarray often, not always, have lives that are also in disarray. I can only speak to what I have learned in my own experiences dealing with people, and what I have discerned of life in general over 41 years. It's just an indicator that gives me pause (allowing considerations for age, health, etc.). Have you ever seen pictures inside of Anthony Sowell's home, where he was living with decomposing bodies? He is only one example. Still ... these two cases / men come to mind and prove that it's not a foregone conclusion, but only my personal observation.

BTK was very neat and meticulous, demanding, precise
Gary Ridgeway (GRK) was very neat

Feel free to add others.

Personally, I try not to assume huge things about people based on one aspect of their life (job, gender, career, income, etc.) Are a lot of criminals less than clean? Sure. But that doesn't mean all messy people should be looked at with a side-eyed glance.

That's like saying "Most sex offenders are male. Therefore most males are sex offenders." It just doesn't work like that. One innocuous trait shouldn't make someone go, "hmm....you might be a criminal."
 
  • #415
  • #416
I was on board with the whole thing until this sentence, "He said he believed everything happens for a reason,"

I don't believe that.
 
  • #417
Personally, I try not to assume huge things about people based on one aspect of their life (job, gender, career, income, etc.) Are a lot of criminals less than clean? Sure. But that doesn't mean all messy people should be looked at with a side-eyed glance.

That's like saying "Most sex offenders are male. Therefore most males are sex offenders." It just doesn't work like that. One innocuous trait shouldn't make someone go, "hmm....you might be a criminal."

Yeah maybe that messy looking woman has 6 kids including toddler twins.
Or a new baby.
Or a husband with cancer.
Not everyone's first priority is looking photo ready.
 
  • #418
Listen to the gut, be aware, and listen to local gossip as well. I know of two men my Mom always told me to stay away from. It wasn't until I was older that I was told why. My uncle molested my sister. My neighbor had molested my aunt. Neither wives believed the action, and stayed with the men until death. I don't understand it. But....

I think one of the problems is we as a society in general, tell our kids to be nice and say "thank you" etc, even to strangers. I didn't realize that impact until my daughter was a young teenager. I was in a gas station with her, and she went to pay for what she was getting before I had finished getting what I was buying. There were two men in between us in line. One of the men made a comment "Don't think I've seen a prettier girl all day" or something to that effect, and was eyeing her up and down. Of course I stepped up and spoke up. My daughter....she had said "Thank you!" without even thinking! No...we had a long talk after that. A compliment is one thing....some creep eyeing you up and down is NOT wanted!
 
  • #419
So it goes both ways, right?

I dress neat and clean and my house is sanitary. But there is clutter. I am a working parent with a lot of kids Ina lot of activities. I can't afford a maid.

My step kids mother is a terrible, spiteful, evil person and her home is always very clean and so is she.

Of course not. But in my personal experience, being in the ministry, I do believe there is a great deal of truth in "Cleanliness is next to Godliness." We deal with drug addicts, domestic issues, abuse cases of all forms, all manner of addictions. In general, people who appear to be in disarray often, not always, have lives that are also in disarray. I can only speak to what I have learned in my own experiences dealing with people, and what I have discerned of life in general over 41 years. It's just an indicator that gives me pause (allowing considerations for age, health, etc.). Have you ever seen pictures inside of Anthony Sowell's home, where he was living with decomposing bodies? He is only one example. Still ... these two cases / men come to mind and prove that it's not a foregone conclusion, but only my personal observation.

BTK was very neat and meticulous, demanding, precise
Gary Ridgeway (GRK) was very neat

Feel free to add others.
 
  • #420
Okayyyy everyone, the thread's gone too far OT !! Let's stay on topic and discuss Alayna's case.

:tyou:
 

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