MN MN - Amy Pagnac, 13, Osseo, 5 Aug 1989

[Whisper2112]

Princesspjs, excellent questions.

I am wondering why , if Amy was having a seizure and hit her mother, the police were called?

911 is usually called during a medical emergency. The police and paramedics usually show up. It's standard procedure.

 

[Whisper2112]

From http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/pagnac_amy.html

Vital Statistics at Time of Disappearance


Missing Since: August 5, 1989 from Osseo, Minnesota
Classification: Non-Family Abduction
Date Of Birth: June 15, 1976
Age: 13 years old
Height and Weight: 5'0, 100 pounds

Distinguishing Characteristics: Caucasian female. Brown hair, blue eyes. Amy has scars on her left cheek, left eyelid and the side of her nose. She has a circular-shaped scar on her left knee. Amy's ears are pierced. She has a petite stature.

• What in the world caused all of her scars to the left side of Amy? Had she been in some kind of an accident before?

Clothing/Jewelry Description: Sweatpants, a light-colored shirt, and sneakers.

• Why don't they know what color her sweats, shirt or sneakers were? What type of shirt? T-shirt, sweatshirt, tanktop, etc.

Medical Conditions: Amy suffers from headaches and occasional seizures due to undetermined causes. She may have also had bipolar disorder, although she had not been officially diagnosed with the condition. She is also required to take allergy medication.

• What was she allergic to?

By age 13 I had way more scars than that. Active athletic kids in the country tend to get banged up a lot. My sister has five small facial scars from running into a screen door that was swinging closed at age 7. My brother had significant scarring by age 13 from acne before he got successfully treated for it. It's weird to see what people consider significant in these cases. I mean, we can see from Amy's photographs that it's not like these are disfiguring scars from major trauma.

 

[Whisper2112]

No answers yet on the medical issues and timing?

I'm pretty sure I've read in several places that there was a medical appointment was for Amy, part of an effort to determine the cause of her seizures and headaches. So, if Amy didn't show up in time for them to leave for the appointment, there would be no reason to go to it...There are several posts addressing the medical issues in this very long thread. You could probably review it yourself rather than asking for the answers to be repeated over and over. This has also been addressed in several news stories on the subject. It's not that difficult to get an answer to this question, yet people seem to need it to be answered repeatedly. Curious.

 

[Whisper2112]

I wonder what kind of help they would be open to receiving from the public.

I wonder if they looked for Amy themselves back in 1989 and where they looked or if they hung fliers around town. I wonder how many of her friends they called or visited at their homes.

I'm having a really hard time getting past not knowing where their child is overnight or however many nights it was before they just left town for whatever medical reason.

No one leaves home if a possible runaway, possible medical emergency or possible abduction causes your 13 year old baby to disappear.

The family has worked with law enforcement, private investigators, Missing Children Minnesota, Jacob Wetterling Resource Center, and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. They have distributed all posters created by reputable agencies, and have been tireless in contacting reporters and news media of all types trying to get attention for their daughter's case. They also have regularly attended conferences and other events around the issues of Missing Children and Missing persons.

Susan's involvement in in advocating for more training for police officers on the subject of missing children has been relentless. She mentions it in every interview that I'm aware of (it always gets cut).

Not every family is able to get the media interested in their case, or get the public behind them and their advocacy. Just because efforts pay off in unequal ways does not mean there was unequal effort. Many parents cannot get any traction for their child's case. In fact, that is more common than you might think. Most cases are rejected by the media.

And with this case, there is so much false information being spread. For instance, this stuff about them leaving town for a medical appointment, when it is clear that the medical appointment was for Amy, and that if Amy didn't return there would have been no reason to leave town, so they never left town. Yet, this keeps being brought up and debated as if it actually happened, and as if it signals some deep, dark, and nefarious thing.

You wonder if they are open to help from the public, yet every attempt to get help from the public leads to this sort of nasty inference and a rehashing of old rumors and innuendo based in nothing but either willful misreading of what was said, or outright misrepresentation. If the public shares the posters from reputable organizations, and then shares with the police any tips that they have (rather than spreading them all over the internet - bad practice. If it is good information, you don't want the bad guys to know what is being brought to investigators! If it is bad information, then spreading it around is misleading to the public.) then that is the best help the public can give. And they have been working hard to get that all along, with varying degrees of success.

You can call Missing Children Minnesota or the Jacob Wetterling Resource Center if you want to know if the family has searched for their child. After all, MCM has been involved in the case since the beginning of the case, and JWRC has been involved since they were created. Also, NCMEC could probably tell you that the family has worked with them. The mom contacts the press on the anniversary of Amy's disappearance, and on her birthday every year to remind them that Amy is out there, and to try to get attention for the case. She asks the police what they are doing for these landmarks as well, to try to get the public to help.

If a reporter calls, they agree to do an interview.

You don't have to "wonder" if they want help from the public. They never stop asking for help from the public.

 

[Whisper2112]

I thought the question was about Amy's family apparently going out of town just days after her going missing, and the rain given was a medical procedure...?

Yes, there is a lot made about the medical appointment and the fact that the family was scheduled to go out of town to get Amy the medical help that she needed. Somehow, this has turned into an interpretation that the family actually left town. Which makes no sense, since clearly, if the appointment was for Amy, then there would be no reason to leave town if she was missing.

But a couple of people in this thread either are not capable of understanding that, or they are highly motivated to misunderstand it.

 

[Whisper2112]

Does this make it more clear? This information is in the original police report when Amy went missing. The family left town immediately following her disappearance! Did you leave Amy a note just in case she did return while you guys were out of town? What facility (address) was this medical procedure performed?

Are the neighbors that you have said "hate your guts" the same neighbors who heard gun shots the night before Amy vanished? What do you know about gun shots being heard?

Are you helping the police to try to track down Amy's classmates? They have put out a public plea for any of her classmates who knew her to come forward.

Do you have any websites or social media sites that are dedicated to finding your daughter? I have tried looking and can't find a thing. Where have you looked for her so far and what has your strategy been in these last 25 years to locate your child?

Have the three of you taken polygraph tests? That would be the simplest way to end any and all speculation about the family's involvement and move towards finding Amy!

Again, if the appointment was for Amy, then clearly, there would be no reason to leave town. Susan has said that they didn't leave town, because the appointment was for Amy. So why the obsession with a made-up "fact?" You are demanding an explanation for something that Susan has made clear didn't happen. You want details about the facility where something that didn't happen happened. How can anyone answer demands for specific details for an appointment that clearly could not have occurred? The appointment for Amy would have to have been cancelled because Amy wasn't available to go - since she was missing, so the out-of-town trip that was planned would not have occurred.

As for the gunshots, there was no mention of gunshots in the police blotter at the Osseo Press at any point around the time of Amy's disappearance. A review of the police blotter for six months on either side of the event shows no complaints about gun shots, although there are numerous incidences of car windows, house windows, and porch lights being shot out by BB guns during that time. That's the closest thing that I could find, anyway. So whoever said they heard gunshots is either mistaken, lying, or they heard something to do with hunting near-by and not something related to a crime. Since the area was quite rural during that time, it's not impossible that someone heard a small-game hunter taking a shot off in a field somewhere.

The family has cooperated fully with police, if you recall the statement made by Adam Lindquist in the press conference. The family has made multiple please to the public for anyone who knew anything about Amy to come forward. Again, you can verify this by calling any of the reputable missing child organizations that they have worked with. Over the past 27 years, they have not stopped asking the public to come forward with any and all information.

Several missing child organizations have put out posters at the request of the family, and the family has tirelessly participated in bringing the case before the public. You can bet that any given story done on Amy for the last 27 years has been due to agitation and efforts by the family to secure attention for the case.

 

[Whisper2112]

Nice photo efforts, but Amy would be nearly 40 years old today. It would be helpful to have an artist conception of what she might look like now.

Plus, why not just continue to share the posters from reputable sources? The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, Jacob Wetterling Resource Center, and Missing Children Minnesota all have posters out there for people to use. People are more likely to "share" or forward posters that look professional, don't eat ink, are from reputable sources which they can trust to have up-to-date information.

 

[GreyClay]

new news article about Amy Sue. Father would not talk, but stood by wife during the interview. Weird considering he was the last person to see her. http://kstp.com/news/missing-minnesotans-amy-sue-pagnac/4341864/?cat=1

Thanks Jbrown324320.

From the last two lines of the article you posted:

Police are also interested in finding out who Amy’s biological father is and locating him.
If you have any information about Amy Sue Pagnac’s disappearance, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children at 1-800-THE-LOST.

I thought the question of whether MM was the father or the stepfather had been resolved... :gaah:

 

[Whisper2112]

Yes, perhaps Amy's mother is just a more confident speaker in those type of situations.

However, it would be nice for the father/stepfather to give his account of the day (and days leading up to) Amy's disappearance. There are so many conflicting and confusing accounts floating around, that it would be incredibly useful to get a definitive account from the only person who is able to provide that information. He may possess some important nuggets of information that could break this case, without even realising how important they are.

According to Captain Lindquist, the family has cooperated fully with Maple Grove PD. I'm sure that they have been able to ask every imaginable question in the interviews over the years.

 

[Whisper2112]

Thanks Jbrown324320.

From the last two lines of the article you posted:

I thought the question of whether MM was the father or the stepfather had been resolved... :gaah:

Marshall adopted Amy at age 3. He is legally her father. The press and officials have muddied the water by referring to him as "step-father" and "non-biological father". There shouldn't be any confusion about this, but there seems to be. That's unfortunate, because too many people seem to have an inability to get past their weird stereotypes of adoptive parents or step-parents and see a worried father who will never stop looking for his daughter.

 

[shadowdancer]

I think it may be useful for investigators to be able to contact Amy's bio father. What if he had changed his mind about wanting to be in Amy's life? What if he had come back for her?

Its a long shot, but I think it should have been ruled out.

 

[flourish]

Yes, there is a lot made about the medical appointment and the fact that the family was scheduled to go out of town to get Amy the medical help that she needed. Somehow, this has turned into an interpretation that the family actually left town. Which makes no sense, since clearly, if the appointment was for Amy, then there would be no reason to leave town if she was missing.

But a couple of people in this thread either are not capable of understanding that, or they are highly motivated to misunderstand it.

Perhaps it's not a lack of capability of understanding, it's that there has been confusing information provided. Originally, I understood it that Amy disappeared, and very soon afterwards, the family left to go out of town because of a medical appointment out of town. And it seemed questionable to leave town while your child is missing.

Now I'm being told it was Amy herself that had the appointment, which was subsequently cancelled on account of the fact she was missing. That would make sense.

But if a scheduled medical appointment for Amywas cancelled after her disappearance, why was it even ever brought up? It would be clear why an appointment for someone would be cancelled when the person for whom the appointment is for is missing.

There was a poster a few months back who made it all just clear as mud.

So that's why I'm gonna have to go back and read over it all again. Because why would there be any discussion about a cancelled appointment? Why would I even think to wonder about it, and why do I have it stuck in my head that the appointment was for a different family member and wasn't cancelled due to the absence? Did I just grab that idea out of the ether?

 

[flourish]

Here it is.

Going for a medical procedure. No clear amount of time for the amount of time

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/05/20/original-police-report-released-in-amy-pagnac-search/

“We’re trying to find Amy. That’s kind of a broad spectrum, I get that but that’s why we’re here,” said Capt. Keith Terlinden, of the Maple Grove Police.
Also of note in the original report, Amy’s parents had said they were going out of town for some type of medical procedure for a few days after Amy went missing.

Okay, there we go. I did not imagine it.

"Also of note in the original report, Amy’s parents had said they were going out of town for some type of medical procedure for a few days after Amy went missing."

So...that does not jive with the idea that the appointment was for Amy.

 

[BethAnn777]

How many police reports have been made? Have Susan and Marshall stated that there were errors in each one of them? That's what I am gathering. To those who think errors in police reports are common, not once (original report), not twice (police stating that the parents were leaving town for an appt.) and possibly more... I don't know. Come on now. Help me understand how this is possible and why the public should believe that to be the case.

 

[BethAnn777]

Something I just thought of. Many years back I had to call the police to report an incidence of violence that I witnessed, a grown man shoved a teenager down to the ground. The police chatted with me, filled out a police report, REQUIRED me to read it over and sign my name. Things certainly could have changed over the years but were Marshall and/or Susan not required to sign the original police report?

 

[BethAnn777]

Marshall adopted Amy at age 3. He is legally her father. The press and officials have muddied the water by referring to him as "step-father" and "non-biological father". There shouldn't be any confusion about this, but there seems to be. That's unfortunate, because too many people seem to have an inability to get past their weird stereotypes of adoptive parents or step-parents and see a worried father who will never stop looking for his daughter.

We get it. Marshall adopted Amy. However, the media is not incorrect in referring to him as her non-biological dad. Regardless of if you think it is insensitive or is muddying the waters it is a fact

 

[BethAnn777]

http://kstp.com/news/missing-minnesotans-amy-sue-pagnac/4341864/?cat=1

So, LE wants to know who Amy's biological father is. Won't Susan tell them his name? Does she not know who her father is? This is so strange...

 

[buffetoflies]

I looked at mn's online civil court records to see if there was a child support order between her mom and someone but there isn't.

There WAS a personal injury case that was settled at the end of September 1989 where her mom was the defendant. Then 3-4 other personal injury cases where it was her mom and M filing against other people.

Neither of them have criminal records.

 

[Whisper2112]

Okay, there we go. I did not imagine it.

"Also of note in the original report, Amy’s parents had said they were going out of town for some type of medical procedure for a few days after Amy went missing."

So...that does not jive with the idea that the appointment was for Amy.

Then you do not accept the parent's assertion that it was reported wrong in the Garland report, and you do not accept Susan Sr.'s clarification that the appointment was for Amy, and that they told officer Garland about the appointment for Amy? That's your prerogative. But unless you have proof that this is not what happened, it is just speculation. If you do have proof that this is ot how it went down, you should go to the police with it immediately.

 

[Whisper2112]

How many police reports have been made? Have Susan and Marshall stated that there were errors in each one of them? That's what I am gathering. To those who think errors in police reports are common, not once (original report), not twice (police stating that the parents were leaving town for an appt.) and possibly more... I don't know. Come on now. Help me understand how this is possible and why the public should believe that to be the case.

From what we've seen posted here, there were two reports written according to the family, one, taken by Officer Garland, which they dispute almost in it's entirety, and a second one given to Lt. Markgraf, which the family says they believe was accurate.

My understanding is that the idea that they were planning to leave town came from the report written by officer Garland, and was not accurate, as the family have said they did not leave town for the appointment which was supposed to happen shorty after Amy's disappearance (since Amy was not there, and the appointment was for Amy).