MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #13 - Chauvin Trial Day 10

[Rhozwen]

I went into the case thinking that DC would quite possibly be found guilty of murder. This is based on the small amount of media coverage that I had seen last summer, plus the larger political pressures at play (IMO).

I am trying to examine and question all of the evidence, including researching what different experts may present as fact, especially if it is contradictory to other testimony.
I do not just accept someone's assertion of scientific fact, but I seek confirmation in source literature, as I have been trained to do.

I agree that the prosecution's medical experts called so far, have NOT stated that THEY believe Mr. Floyd died from a drug overdose (& neither have I, for the record).

However, Dr Baker did testify under cross examination today, that he had previously stated that had Mr Floyd been found dead, with no other definitive cause of death, he would have concluded the COD to be an overdose, based on the level of 11ng/ml fentanyl found.

I have also previously linked several reputable sources including peer reviewed scientific journals and the CDC, that describe fatal fentanyl overdoses with levels both lower and higher than that found in Mr Floyd's blood (11 ng/ml).

https://static.fox9.com/www.fox9.com/content/uploads/2020/08/Exhibit-4.pdf

Multiple Fentanyl Overdoses — New Haven, Connecticut, June 23, 2016

I think DC is guilty of something, but I'm keeping an open mind.

Thanks for rational and reasonable discussion

I am of the same mind in that I like to see things from all angles and form my opinions from there. So I appreciate your viewpoints.

I took Dr. Baker's testimony on if GF was found dead inside locked home to mean that his toxicology would be one element used to determine cause of death as in, we usually don't know what levels people are tolerant of unless they die and then drug amounts in system are then measured. I could see how that could be viewed differently.

I appreciate hearing other views because it helps to see how discussions in jury deliberations could go.

 

[delilah]

IIRC, today, Dr Baker actually stated that Mr Floyd was still alive at the hospital. I think that it is during cross examination.
I don't have time to go back and find the exact time stamp, but I believe it's in this video. If I find the specific time later, I'll add .

I heard that too and did a double take.

 

[BUF]

Court TV said someone showed up for DC in court today (first time). She was described as a woman with short curly dark hair of Asian descent.

 

[Algo214]

However, Dr Baker did testify under cross examination today, that he had previously stated that had Mr Floyd been found dead, with no other definitive cause of death, he would have concluded the COD to be an overdose, based on the level of 11ng/ml fentanyl found.

This goes IMO under the "Nelson's hypotheticals that have no bearing with the case at hand" or rather, that statement is all the MORE reason to find that given these other circumstances ARE present, they have to be accounted for somehow and that necessarily leads to a conviction.
2nd Degree Uninentional Murder does not require intent to murder, but is qualified by causing it while committing another felony.
Intent would play a role for that felony, which is 3rd degree assault, defined as "serious bodily harm" which I believe we can absolutely infer he had the intent to.

Defense hasn't been able to produce reasonable doubt that Chauvin couldn't have believed his actions wouldn't have produced serious bodily harm (Sec 609.02 Subd. 9 4) in concordance with the definition of assault on Sec 609.02 Subd. 10 and of Third Degree Assault in Sec 609.223 Subd. 1 of the 2020 MN Statutes)
So that's my guessing so far, FWIW.

 

[CrimeAway]

I am of the same mind in that I like to see things from all angles and form my opinions from there. So I appreciate your viewpoints.

I took Dr. Baker's testimony on if GF was found dead inside locked home to mean that his toxicology would be one element used to determine cause of death as in, we usually don't know what levels people are tolerant of unless they die and then drug amounts in system are then measured. I could see how that could be viewed differently.

I appreciate hearing other views because it helps to see how discussions in jury deliberations could go.

I agree, and it is much more valuable to constructive discourse, IMO, to consider multiple points of view.

The justice system is far from perfect, but I think it is far superior than trial my media, IMO.

 

[mickey2942]

HLN just reported that prosecution has two "spark of life" witnesses yet to call, one of whom is GF's brother.

What can the victim's brother add to the prosecution? Except to say what a great guy his brother was? Seems like that should be saved for sentencing...

 

[MadMcGoo]

I was quite surprised to learn the jury was not sequestered. Seems like a mistake to me.

 

[delilah]

I am of the same mind in that I like to see things from all angles and form my opinions from there. So I appreciate your viewpoints.

I took Dr. Baker's testimony on if GF was found dead inside locked home to mean that his toxicology would be one element used to determine cause of death as in, we usually don't know what levels people are tolerant of unless they die and then drug amounts in system are then measured. I could see how that could be viewed differently.

I appreciate hearing other views because it helps to see how discussions in jury deliberations could go.

I took it to mean that, in the absence of any other evidence to suggest a different COD, for example a police officer kneeling on the deceased’s neck, the toxicology would lead him to conclude OD was COD. I think both other experts said similar.

 

[kittythehare]

IIRC, today, Dr Baker actually stated that Mr Floyd was still alive at the hospital. I think that it is during cross examination.
I don't have time to go back and find the exact time stamp, but I believe it's in this video. If I find the specific time later, I'll add it.

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That was following resuscitation and/or ventilation, he did not spontaneously start breathing. There is a vast difference!

 

[kittythehare]

I took it to mean that, in the absence of any other evidence to suggest a different COD, for example a police officer kneeling on the deceased’s neck, the toxicology would lead him to conclude OD was COD. I think both other experts said similar.

He over-simplified that response IMO.
An autopsy on such a patient would have needed to have shown damage consistent with the alleged causative agent.
Other calculations would include dosages, mode of administration and subject's body weight and height, known allergies etc.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

JMO I believe DC may have actually enjoyed being in that position of such power and control. I think the job went way too far to his head. It may have been he’d got work burnout- not that it excuses what he did in any way. Patrolling and arresting, chasing suspects daily could lead to feelings of anger and disgust towards those who commit crimes meaning he could have got angrier and more hatred towards the people he restrains/arrests and GF got the brunt of DC’s built up anger oozing out losing his rag that day.

But IMO him having that power over others, the knowledge he could make them do things they didn’t want to do, he could cause terror and pain if he wanted, use threats, force all while he wore that uniform, was what he liked the most. I think it was being in charge and intimidating others that he enjoyed, he’s like ‘try me, I’ll mace you, I’ll arrest you, I’ll restrain you’, wants to be the ‘tough cop’ on the block, may have bragged about his use of force outside work.
I imagine his ex girlfriends/wives could tell a tale or two. I think his previous complaints of excessive force showed he has had this temperament for a while. I wonder if those occurrences coincide with a relationship breakdown or another life stressor for him. I also wonder if DC has been evaluated by a psychiatrist who will give us an insight into whether they believe he is a remorseful, gentle soul deep down or whether he was a monster who hid behind his uniform, likely somewhere in between.

I am by no means generalising police officers, but it is a job that comes with a lot of power, responsibility and feeling of being a hero of communities and someone who is narcissistic, selfish, unremorseful, devoid of emotion could wel take advantage of their position as a respected law enforcement officer. Those types of people are in a very small minority of course, but they are out there MOO.

 

[kittythehare]

What can the victim's brother add to the prosecution? Except to say what a great guy his brother was? Seems like that should be saved for sentencing...

It is because of Minnesota law 'spark of life'.
It is so that the victim can be shown as more than a corpse.
The judge has permitted it. I understand there will be two spark of life witnesses .
A trial needs that.
The victim deserves it, IMO

 

[CrimeAway]

You can be not breathing spontaneously, and still alive.
AFAIK no one except Dr Langenfeld was legally qualified to declare Mr Floyd dead.

Dr Tobin, can certainly give a very highly educated OPINION as to when he believes that Mr Floyd died, but I am not sure that he can declare that with absolute medical/legal certainty based on a video.

 

[CrimeAway]

He over-simplified that response IMO.
An autopsy on such a patient would have needed to have shown damage consistent with the alleged causative agent.
Other calculations would include dosages, mode of administration and subject's body weight and height, known allergies etc.

IMO, absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence.

Many drugs do not leave lasting physical evidence of every step from ingestion, absortbtion, metabolism, physiological effects, and excretion from the body IMO.

GHB/Xyrem would be a good example, IMO, of a drug that can show physiological effects, after it can no longer be detected in the body. Other drugs, or their metabolites, can be detected long after their acute physiological effects are over (THC for example).

 

[MadMcGoo]

I’m genuinely curious about the statement that he was alive after arriving at the hospital or sometime before death. I can’t remember Baker’s exact words but I really thought I’d misheard. What does that mean? The paramedics or ER staff were about to resuscitate him and then he died after arriving to the ER? Why would that be? Brain damage?

I believe this has nothing to do with what the jury must decide, but this is new to me and I don’t quite understand it.

 

[kittythehare]

You can be not breathing spontaneously, and still alive.
AFAIK no one except Dr Langenfeld was legally qualified to declare Mr Floyd dead.

Dr Tobin, can certainly give a very highly educated OPINION as to when he believes that Mr Floyd died, but I am not sure that he can declare that with absolute medical/legal certainty based on a video.

What did the paramedics state regarding the condition of Mr Floyd upon their arrival?

 

[Sillybilly]

Sidebar is open now. Please move on over there for the weekend.

This thread will close shortly.

 

[kittythehare]

IMO, absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence.

Many drugs do not leave lasting physical evidence of every step from ingestion, absortbtion, metabolism, physiological effects, and excretion from the body IMO.

GHB/Xyrem would be a good example, IMO, of a drug that can show physiological effects, after it can no longer be detected in the body. Other drugs, or their metabolites, can be detected long after their acute physiological effects are over (THC for example).

He wasn't referring to drugs that could not be detected.

 

[delilah]

What did the paramedics state regarding the condition of Mr Floyd upon their arrival?

They thought he was dead. No pulse was detected at any stage between their arrival and Dr Langenfield pronouncing him dead and he was flatlining in the ambulance. The latter did talk about ‘electrical activity’ so maybe that’s what Dr Baker was alluding to? Or maybe he just made a mistake?

 

[Chelseab]

I wonder if the defense didn’t address the juror misconduct because he wants to try to use it later for an appeal

Can the defense cite this specific case of juror misconduct in an appeal even though they passed on the opportunity to file a motion for dismissal?