MN - Jamar Clark, 24, shot by LE, Minneapolis, 15 Nov 2015

[K_Z]

Sunset in Minneapolis. About 1000 people estimated on steps and plaza of Hennepin County Government Center.

Livestreams available, some with police scanner chatter.

https://twitter.com/search?q=#jamarclark live stream&src=rela

This one has had several different feeds simultaneously:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXbuP19AWDM&feature=youtu.be

 

[K_Z]

Unconfirmed reports of the national guard seen on I-94 (major freeway into Minneapolis). Protesters calling for crowd to march to the Minneapolis Police Department 4th Precinct. That is where the 18 day occupation occurred last November.

Aerial view of the crowd does not look like 1000 people-- maybe a few hundred.

 

[KaaBoom]

So the activists didn't want the grand jury to make the decision and now they're unhappy that the county attorney didn't bring charges?

They wanted an independent grand jury to decide. Not a DA who is a partner of the LE community. 99% of these type of cases end the same way. The DA doesn’t charge the cops, but a civil jury awards a multi-million dollar judgment against the police department.

If the justice system was working, the criminal and civil courts would be in sync with each other. The cops would be convicted and the victims be awarded a judgment, or cops would be acquitted and there would be no civil judgement awarded. As long as victims of police violence continue to win large judgments against the police, but there is no convictions of the LEOs involved, there is no justice.

 

[popsicle]

No, they did not want any Grand Jury at all because they are secretive.

 

[al66pine]

No, they did not want any Grand Jury at all because they are secretive.

Pls help. Are ^ two "they" each referring to same or different group of ppl?

If I'm interp'ing post correctly -
- first "they" refers to activists or protestors or those critical of conclusion not to charge LEOs?................ Y or N?
- second "they" refers to grand juries whose detailed findings are not released to the public (or secret)..... Y or N?

Or I may be misinterp'ing. Confirm or clarify? Thx in adv.


(Sometimes I don't read the way others read as being obvious.)

 

[bwt42]

Actions of certain segments within LE often make this difficult. Imagine what it's like to know if you call for help there's a good chance the situation will only get worse. How can we be expected to trust the police after seeing people harmed or killed again and again and again?

Willingness on both sides, sure, but how willing can a person be when he or she is afraid of the outcome? Both sides will never meet as equals. It's us vs. them.

JMO

Do you have any statistics on " a good chance the situation will get worse" ? TIA

 

[Jen Darme]

I've been watching Unicorn Riot's livestream (@UR_Ninja)and have seen cops on bikes at major intersections, cops in cars pacing the protesters on adjacent blocks to prevent cars driving into the crowd, and state troopers where they crossed the interstate.

They, the protesters, reached the meeting point down the street from the precinct over an hour ago, where a large crowd had already gathered, and from what I've seen, it's been quite peaceful. Ages range from very young (carried by adults) to elderly, there's a mix of races/ethnicities, and many of the marchers were young women. (UR interviewed 16 and 17 year old girls.) Members of the National Lawyers Guild are present, supporting the protesters.

 

[bluesneakers]

Do you have any statistics on " a good chance the situation will get worse" ? TIA

I suggest you read through some of the police shooting threads on this site. You'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[al66pine]

....
If the justice system was working, the criminal and civil courts would be in sync with each other. The cops would be convicted and the victims be awarded a judgment, or cops would be acquitted and there would be no civil judgement awarded. As long as victims of police violence continue to win large judgments against the police, but there is no convictions of the LEOs involved, there is no justice.

^ sbm bbm Respectfully disagreeing w ^. In the US, civil courts and criminal courts serve different objectives.*

An individual's action may constitute a tort, for which a civil court may award $ damages for personal injuries or death. But the individual's same action may not rise to the level of a crime for which he may be imprisoned.
A grand jury determination that criminal charges should not be brought is not necessarily inconsistent w. a civil court action awarding $ for personal injuries or death.

JM2cts.
___________________________________________________________________________

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort
"Tort law is different from criminal law in that: (1) torts may result from negligent as well as intentional or criminal actions and (2) tort lawsuits have a lower burden of proof such as preponderance of evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes a plaintiff may prevail in a tort case even if the person who caused the harm was acquitted in an earlier criminal trial. For example, O.J. Simpson was acquitted in criminal court and later found liable for the tort of wrongful death."

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury

Also about US gr juries: http://www.canadalegal.info/ref-usa-grand-jury/USA-Grand-Jury-courts-ia.html
"What is a "GRAND JURY" in the USA? This article is to help clarify so much of what we see in the public news and entertainment media referring to America's "Grand Juries" and courts. Many Canadians and some Us Citizens are not clear about what a Grand Jury is and how it differs from Canada's Criminal Court System"
Author of above link is atty licensed to practice in US (St of WA) and Canada.

 

[Jen Darme]

The livestream ended a bit ago. Most of the protesters returned to the vigil site down the street from the precinct and headed out soon after. There were plans announced for the future but I didn't catch the details other than maybe Friday.

The police turning off almost all the lights at and in the precinct and standing inside in the dark in riot gear with several in the dark on the roof (their laser sights gave them away) was ... interesting.

Nigel, the videographer, walked back to the precinct which was all lit up. A few of the people who remained at the precinct were picking up trash on the lawn. Nigel walked alone toward the front door of the precinct and they turned the lights off.

 

[KaaBoom]

^ sbm bbm Respectfully disagreeing w ^. In the US, civil courts and criminal courts serve different objectives.*

An individual's action may constitute a tort, for which a civil court may award $ damages for personal injuries or death. But the individual's same action may not rise to the level of a crime for which he may be imprisoned.
A grand jury determination that criminal charges should not be brought is not necessarily inconsistent w. a civil court action awarding $ for personal injuries or death.

JM2cts.
___________________________________________________________________________

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort
"Tort law is different from criminal law in that: (1) torts may result from negligent as well as intentional or criminal actions and (2) tort lawsuits have a lower burden of proof such as preponderance of evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes a plaintiff may prevail in a tort case even if the person who caused the harm was acquitted in an earlier criminal trial. For example, O.J. Simpson was acquitted in criminal court and later found liable for the tort of wrongful death."

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury

Also about US gr juries: http://www.canadalegal.info/ref-usa-grand-jury/USA-Grand-Jury-courts-ia.html
"What is a "GRAND JURY" in the USA? This article is to help clarify so much of what we see in the public news and entertainment media referring to America's "Grand Juries" and courts. Many Canadians and some Us Citizens are not clear about what a Grand Jury is and how it differs from Canada's Criminal Court System"
Author of above link is atty licensed to practice in US (St of WA) and Canada.

I am well aware of the difference between criminal and civil courts. When juries are awarding billions of dollars for wrongful deaths as a result of LEO misconduct, it’s highly likely that similar criminal juries would also find the cops guilty, if the DAs would actually prosecute them. Something is wrong when justice can only be served in a civil court.

 

[bwt42]

I suggest you read through some of the police shooting threads on this site. You'll see what I'm talking about.

I have read through many of the police shooting threads on this site & am not of the opinion that by calling the police there is "a good chance the situation will get worse". In this thread, by calling the police the situation got better for the victim of his beating.

 

[K_Z]

The livestream ended a bit ago. Most of the protesters returned to the vigil site down the street from the precinct and headed out soon after. There were plans announced for the future but I didn't catch the details other than maybe Friday.

The police turning off almost all the lights at and in the precinct and standing inside in the dark in riot gear with several in the dark on the roof (their laser sights gave them away) was ... interesting.

Nigel, the videographer, walked back to the precinct which was all lit up. A few of the people who remained at the precinct were picking up trash on the lawn. Nigel walked alone toward the front door of the precinct and they turned the lights off.

I'm very glad there was no significant violence or property destruction overnight, and that the protesters were able to exercise self control. These kind of crowds can turn very violent without much provocation. I'm sure police and the city authorities are relieved, too, and I know the hospital staff are.

I thought the "lights out" strategy at the 4th Precinct was smart, non-violent, non-confrontational, and effective. Kind of like shutting off the porch lights when you've had enough trick or treaters. Vigilant, but not wanting to engage, or escalate-- that was a good message to send the protesters, IMO.

There are many non-violent methods to discourage these kinds of volatile crowds. The military has been using them for a long time.

There will be more rallies, signs, and chanting for the next few days, probably, but hopefully the worse is over for now.

I commend Chief Harteau for good planning and preparation. The protesters were able to have their say, and exercised their rights to speech and assembly. Other than the light rail being blocked for a half hour or so (which shouldn't have happened at all), and some minor intentional fire setting by the protesters (their own flags, a book exchange box, and a few trash cans), things stayed pretty much under control. That's about as good as it can get in this kind of situation, IMO.

I do think the full transparency by County Attorney Freeman contributed to the non-violent outcomes. Just imagine what could have erupted if a grand jury had met and just delivered a "no true bill" finding-- with no other details. I think Mike Freeman made the right decision to not use the grand jury. And it was what the activists wanted and asked for, too-- so that's a "win-win" situation, IMO, even though the activists didn't like the decision.

 

[Jen Darme]

Do you have any statistics on " a good chance the situation will get worse" ? TIA

You'd think there would be data but there's not. Even the reporting of crimes is voluntary. From last April, NY Times: Scant Data Frustrates Efforts to Assess Number of Shootings by Police:

Roughly 91 percent of departments and agencies in the country voluntarily report crimes like murders, rapes, car thefts and burglaries to the F.B.I., which releases an annual report.

But under the current reporting systems, there is no category for episodes in which the officer’s use of force was not deemed legally justified, and there is no category to report police shootings in which the officer has not killed a person. There are categories for “justifiable” or “excusable” homicides by police officers, ones in which officers kill a felon.​

The editor of the Reno News & Review started a crowdsourced database of killings, Fatal Encounters, and the UK news site The Guardian is also compiling data, The Counted. Shootings aren't the only source of fear as investigative reporting such as 2014's Undue Force by the Baltimore Sun attest (bolding mine):

The city has paid about $5.7 million since 2011 over lawsuits claiming that police officers brazenly beat up alleged suspects. One hidden cost: The perception that officers are violent can poison the relationship between residents and police.​

The brutality isn't just against suspects. If you scroll down in that article to The Grandmother, you'll find an account of a woman who called for help for her grandson who had been shot (and who had no criminal record). She was handcuffed and her shoulder broken.

 

[Jen Darme]

I only have a few minutes but wanted to reply. I'm a bit surprised you use the qualifier "significant" regarding violence and property damage. Did you see any violence?

I did see something very small reduced to glowing embers in the free library box, perhaps the remnants of a small flag. There were no books in it at the time. When UR returned to the precinct, when only those picking up trash remained there, the library box unharmed. The books had been replaced and were sitting neatly inside it. I don't think there's any indication the box was a target of destruction and I say that as someone who holds free library boxes dear.

I view desecration of the flag as symbolic speech rather than property destruction. As you noted, the flags were burned by the people who owned them.

I missed trash cans burning and heard no mention of it last night.

I'm very glad there was no significant violence or property destruction overnight, and that the protesters were able to exercise self control. These kind of crowds can turn very violent without much provocation. I'm sure police and the city authorities are relieved, too, and I know the hospital staff are.

I thought the "lights out" strategy at the 4th Precinct was smart, non-violent, non-confrontational, and effective. Kind of like shutting off the porch lights when you've had enough trick or treaters. Vigilant, but not wanting to engage, or escalate-- that was a good message to send the protesters, IMO.

There are many non-violent methods to discourage these kinds of volatile crowds. The military has been using them for a long time.

There will be more rallies, signs, and chanting for the next few days, probably, but hopefully the worse is over for now.

I commend Chief Harteau for good planning and preparation. The protesters were able to have their say, and exercised their rights to speech and assembly. Other than the light rail being blocked for a half hour or so (which shouldn't have happened at all), and some minor intentional fire setting by the protesters (their own flags, a book exchange box, and a few trash cans), things stayed pretty much under control. That's about as good as it can get in this kind of situation, IMO.

I do think the full transparency by County Attorney Freeman contributed to the non-violent outcomes. Just imagine what could have erupted if a grand jury had met and just delivered a "no true bill" finding-- with no other details. I think Mike Freeman made the right decision to not use the grand jury. And it was what the activists wanted and asked for, too-- so that's a "win-win" situation, IMO, even though the activists didn't like the decision.

 

[al66pine]

(my post 229, US civil ct & crim cts serving different objectives)

I am well aware of the difference between criminal and civil courts. When juries are awarding billions of dollars for wrongful deaths as a result of LEO misconduct, it’s highly likely that similar criminal juries would also find the cops guilty, if the DAs would actually prosecute them. Something is wrong when justice can only be served in a civil court.

^ bbm

IIUC per ^ thinking, after a LEO-involved shooting, where injured plaintiff files civil case & receives verdict & $ damages, prosecutor or state's atty must file criminal charges against shooter (in civil case) so 'justice can be served.'

Should prosecutor always file criminal charges for any LEO shooting which injures another person?
Is it poss justice can be served thru civil court proceedings when injured plaintiff receives verdict & $ damages?

Also, per ^thinking, is this necessary only when shooter is LEO? If shooter is private citizen, must prosecutor file criminal charges against him?

How far does this line of thinking go?
Re auto collisions, where injured plaintiff receives verdict & $ damages, must prosecutor also file criminal charges against (other) driver? Only if LEO is driver of other vehicle causing collision?
Or must prosecutor file criminal charges against other driver who is private citizen who caused accident?

Is it possible an injured plaintiff receives justice thru civil court proceedings & $ damages, even if no crim charges are filed?
^ Just wondering.

Imo, justice does not require criminal charges & trials in every instance where civil proceedings result in verdict for plaintiff.

Civil justice in civil courts, criminal justice in criminal courts.

 

[KaaBoom]

I have read through many of the police shooting threads on this site & am not of the opinion that by calling the police there is "a good chance the situation will get worse". In this thread, by calling the police the situation got better for the victim of his beating.

40 percent of LEOs in America engage in domestic violence of their partners. That’s 4 x higher then for the general population. Thats just the number of violent LEOs who commit domestic violence. Not even getting into these who save their violent tendencies for their job, or just take them out on random citizens. Such as like road rage incidents involving LEOs, that often show up on YouTube.

LE is the only occupation in America where job candidates can/are discriminated against because their IQs are too high. That can’t happen in any other occupation. It’s not legal, but LE agencies in this country have gone to court to fight for and won the right to discriminate against job candidates with high IQs.

So when you call the police, the person who will show up is a least 4 x more prone to unjustifiable violence then the average citizen, and was hired for the job because of their low IQ. Thats not the type of person, who I want to call to help me with anything, if I can possibly avoid it. There is a very good chance that calling LE, will make the situation worse. There in no end of examples of it, that can be given.

Police Family Violence Fact Sheet

Two studies have found that at least 40% of police officer families experience domestic violence, in contrast to 10% of families in the general population. A third study of older and more experienced officers found a rate of 24%, indicating that domestic violence is 2-4 times more common among police families than American families in general. A police department that has domestic violence offenders among its ranks will not effectively serve and protect victims in the community. Moreover, when officers know of domestic violence committed by their colleagues and seek to protect them by covering it up, they expose the department to civil liability.

Police Family Violence Fact Sheet

Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops

 

[KaaBoom]

Should prosecutor always file criminal charges for any LEO shooting which injures another person?

Sure why not? If the LEO was justified, he can get his day in court, and be exonerated by a fair and impartial jury. Of course even that will not work. Because when DAs do charge LEOs, they then present as weak a case as possible to help their LE partner.

 

[Jen Darme]

Local news station KARE 11 did a ~3 minute video segment on police protocol re: the take down. They show video from the scene, video that was shown at the press conference that the audience audibly reacted to. One person can be heard saying, "How is that resistance?"

The officer who had formerly worked in San Diego threw Jamar to the ground 30 seconds after he'd arrived at the scene and after 19 seconds of interaction, when he was telling Jamar to take his hands out of his pockets. According to Freeman yesterday the officer had been trained in San Diego to take a suspect to the ground when he resisted being handcuffed. Minneapolis police policy allows an officer to use a conscious neck restraint, as the officer did, only when a suspect is actively resisting. But according to Jamar's behavior as shown on the video and Minneapolis policy, Jamar was passively resisting.

KARE 11 asked several people about this:

County Attorney Mike Freeman, who made the decision: "It is my understanding that is not a technique normally favored by Minneapolis police, okay. I'm not familiar with every intimate detail of their training but that's what I've been advised."

Bob Kroll, head of the police union, said he'd not seen enough of the video to make an assessment. (On the segment shown, the officer approaching Jamar and putting him on the ground occurs in less than six seconds.)

Police Chief Janee Harteau wouldn't say whether she thought the take down was appropriate, "that'll be something that will be in the [internal] review." That review will happen after the federal investigation is complete.

Over four months later...

 

[katydid23]

I suggest you read through some of the police shooting threads on this site. You'll see what I'm talking about.

And we can also read through some of the reports about police being shot or assaulted. The cycle of violence feeds itself. Cops are on the defensive quite often. They are the victims of violence themselves.