GUILTY MO - Breeann Rodriguez, 3, Senath, 6 August 2011 - #5

[hollyblue]

Innocent people do "fail" polygraphs. They measure (I think) blood pressure, pulse, respiration ... I imagine all these would be elevated when your child is missing.


eta
A polygraph (popularly referred to as a lie detector) measures and records several physiological indices such as Blood pressure while the subject is asked and answers a series of questions. The belief is that deceptive answers will produce physiological responses that can be differentiated from those associated with non-deceptive answers.

Source is wikipedia but it keeps including annoying extras ...

I wonder if LE takes BP and pulse beforehand to get a baseline? I would think so because they ask what kind of any meds your on (Hailey Dunn case) I would prolly flunk it because of BP--if not. imo

 

[Dee10]

The reason it matters about the poly, IMO, is because Mark Klass had eluded to the fact the reason the amber alert wasn't issued was perhaps the parents weren't being completely truthful. Like the authorities had honed in on them. Otherwise WHY not issue an amber alert?

Unfortunately Breeann didn't fall under the technical terms of the amber alert. Unfortunately, many children do not qualify under the strict guidelines.

Law Enforcement Confirms an Abduction

AMBER plans require law enforcement to confirm an abduction prior to issuing an alert.

http://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm

Started out as a great law with good intentions. In reality just like Breeann's parents you spend time searching, LE has to CONFIRM an abduction; she was still considered "missing" I believe on Friday. A great law in concept, but too rigid I & this law has unfortunately failed many children IMO. You don't want to bombard the public, so they are immuined, but on the other hand ~ no easy answers unfortunately.

 

[katydid23]

Then why did they announce the parents "failed"? How do you announce they failed, delay an amber alert then declare the parents "cleared"? Was that after a confession? I mean, it would be a given at that point, no?

Post above in response to the FBI clearing the parents and/or administering the tests.

AFAIK, nobody ever 'announced' that the parents failed the tests. I think that LE only told the parents themselves that they failed, as a strategic way of testing their involvement. If you tell the dad that mom failed then you can gauge his reaction. He may say "OMG, you must be kidding, she would never hurt our kids" OR he might say " Yes, I was worried about that, she has a bad temper sometimes."

As far as the Amber Alert, it is not really possible without a vehicle description. It is useless to send out a statewide or regional alert on the highways and roadways if all you have is a missing 3 yr old on a bike. They did everything they could by concentrating on the immediate area, and going door to door and sending out local news alerts. imoo

 

[miabellamoure]

The neighbour said the Morgan kids and the Rodriguez kids and his own grandchildren all played together. With Morgans being the only ones with a pool, I imagine their yard was a popular spot for the kids in the neighbourhood. Pretty scary stuff when your kids friends father ends up being a murderer!!!!

What would be even scarier...is if this killer and his family socialized together in the past...with the Rodriguez family...ugh!:sick:

 

[Noway]

I think the only one who "announced" they failed was the father on Nancy Grace.

more on polygraphs at this link (including control questions and baseline responses)
http://www.totalcriminaldefense.com/overview/polygraph-testing.aspx

Failing: If the recorded responses for relevant questions indicate more activity than those for the control questions (i.e. the subject was more agitated when asked about the crime than about general subjects), the subject "fails" the test and is assumed to have lied.

 

[Soulmagent]

AFAIK, nobody ever 'announced' that the parents failed the tests. I think that LE only told the parents themselves that they failed, as a strategic way of testing their involvement. If you tell the dad that mom failed then you can gauge his reaction. He may say "OMG, you must be kidding, she would never hurt our kids" OR he might say " Yes, I was worried about that, she has a bad temper sometimes."

Perfect way to end up going in the wrong direction in a case. JMO. If they passed the poly they passed, why would LE want to add extra stress to confuse themselves. Some parents in these cases do suspect eachother just because their brains and seeking answers. In accidental deaths some parents blame eachother for the loss of their child.

I think them telling the parents they failed should not have been on the first list of investigative tools. If it was.

 

[katydid23]

Perfect way to end up going in the wrong direction in a case. JMO. If they passed the poly they passed, why would LE want to add extra stress to confuse themselves. Some parents in these cases do suspect eachother just because their brains and seeking answers. In accidental deaths some parents blame eachother for the loss of their child.

I think them telling the parents they failed should not have been on the first list of investigative tools. If it was.

Just because someone passes a poly it does not mean they are being truthful. Just as failing it does not mean they are lying. So LE , imo, knows this and uses the tests in other ways.

I think it is very important what each parent thinks of the other's potential involvement in a missing child case. If one of the parents is short tempered and tends to lose control, and has been abusive, who better to ask?

 

[hollyblue]

The MSM is reporting the bike as found. SM stated he dismantled the bike. Did they find it all together...all of the pieces... or just the frame for ID by the family?

Since he states he disposed of her--- before he came home and took the bike apart...and later dumping it in the flood ditch, I'm starting to believe he placed her body somewhere else closer...or disposed of it in another manner besides water. He doesn't want LE to find her and what else he may have done to her.

LE didn't go into everyone's house did they? Didn't they just check outbuildings, garbage cans, garages, backyards, etc?

 

[SmoothOperator]

I just can't buy what he is selling as to what occurred to little Breeanne.. They rarely ever come out with the truth..especially right off the bat..they little by little admit to more, change details, til eventually what is much closer to the actual truth begins to emerge from the pit of lies that these murderers are pulling from.. Makes me sick..and the true nature, the real sickest of details they never admit to..IMO..

I just feel there is no way in he!! that this man sees her on his pool ladder, goes out and grabs her off the ladder and swoops her immediately inside his home where proceeds to immediately take a white trash bag and suffocate her to death..place her in the bag and the murder is over..

There is just no logic there..And I full realize there is no logical reasons for why many senseless murders are committed but I think its obvious what I'm attempting to say here.. Sure he has admitted to murdering her and I know that was LE main goal, along with finding the body and putting the monster behind bars, but his story there is no way in he!! that it is true..

I pray that her body be found soon enough that the forensics can tell the real truth of what happened to this little baby..and my God we are talking literally a baby..a toddler of a mere 3 yoa.. There are predators in each and every one of our neighborhoods.. <modsnip> yes even the upscale neighborhoods you better bet your bottom dollar that there are predators who prey on children there just as well as the middle income neighborhoods and the lower income neighborhoods... <modsnip>
That we are not living in the times of 1985 where we were allowed out on our bikes at daylight and didn't show up back home until dark.. These days are over and have been for a long time.. When will parents realize this??

But as far as Breeanne and Morgan even more specifically you better believe the story he's providing at this point is far from what the truth is and I will be shocked if she is found in time to do a proper and full autopsy and the forensics have not been lost due to where the body was placed and the length of time.. I will be shocked if its not found that she infact was sexually assaulted at the very, very least.. There just isn't a chance in the world that the murder occurred as how he told and was documented in the PC affidavit...jmo, tho!

 

[Soulmagent]

:innocent:

Just because someone passes a poly it does not mean they are being truthful. Just as failing it does not mean they are lying. So LE , imo, knows this and uses the tests in other ways.

I think it is very important what each parent thinks of the other's potential involvement in a missing child case. If one of the parents is short tempered and tends to lose control, and has been abusive, who better to ask?

Yeah but what if one parent is leading them away from the truth and the other one is clueless? Or 1000's other issues based on what one possible suspect thinks of another possible suspect. I agree statements as to what each one think about the other can be important but misleading them to get negetive statements or lying to get them seems ineffective and make me wonder if that is why so many missing kids are not found.

Are polygraph tests purely psychological tools?

 

[katydid23]

:innocent:

Yeah but what if one parent is leading them away from the truth and the other one is clueless? Or 1000's other issues based on what one possible suspect thinks of another possible suspect. I agree statements as to what each one think about the other can be important but misleading them to get negetive statements or lying to get them seems ineffective and make me wonder if that is why so many missing kids are not found.

Are polygraph tests purely psychological tools?

The detectives assess the info they might get from this exercise just the same way they assess any of the other exploratory techniques they may try. It is just one more piece of the puzzle. If the parents both pass, and when told they failed they both seem shocked by that news, then LE will probably feel confident in their total innocence.

IMO, LE is aware that one parent might be totally clueless about the other.
So that is not a big problem, imo.

If they both pass, but when told they failed, one of the parents expresses their own fears of the other's possible involvement, then LE would keep them in their sights for awhile longer. I see no problem with that.

As for 'this' investigative technique being the cause of the large amount of missing children, I highly doubt it.

And yes, Polygraphs are purely psychological tools, imo. They are not a sure thing, so they often are used as leverage or as ways of opening dialogue etc.

 

[MarthaM]

Regarding his disposal of her body and the bike, my sense from the officer's affidavit is that he disposed of her body fairly quickly after killing her. That would have been easy enough to do, since he had at least an hour before the police were called. He was probably taking care of that when the police first came calling in their initial canvass.

The affidavit then says that SM 'later disposes of the bicycle'. That word 'later' can mean anything, not even the same day. But I would guess that he tossed the bike on his way to work or at night. It takes less than a minute to throw something over a railing into water, so I don't think tossing either her body or the bike took much time at all--or used much gas, for that matter. I don't think gas station surveillance is going to be of any help or prove anything.

I have to go back and look at the first couple threads for this case to get the date, but I would think he might have disposed of the bike the night before the training wheels were found. Since LE said they had already searched that area, they were probably tossed there the night before they were found. SM possibly threw them there hoping that LE would focus on that area and give the rest of the bike time to 'disappear' in the water.

I pray that her body be found soon enough that the forensics can tell the real truth of what happened to this little baby..and my God we are talking literally a baby..a toddler of a mere 3 yoa.. Where was the supervision?? Has the people not learned yet that you leave your babies unattended and this is what happens.. There are predators in each and every one of our neighborhoods..yes even the upscale neighborhoods you better bet your bottom dollar that there are predators who prey on children there just as well as the middle income neighborhoods and the lower income neighborhoods... Nowhere is safe to allow your babies to ever be unsupervised.. what is it going to take for this to be realized by parents????

That we are not living in the times of 1985 where we were allowed out on our bikes at daylight and didn't show up back home until dark.. These days are over and have been for a long time.. When will parents realize this??

It really makes me cringe to see the parents criticized here or in any of these cases. All of the blame goes squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator, not the parents. They'll do enough second-guessing of themselves and rehashing the what-ifs without the help of any armchair critics.

BTW, children were abducted from their homes, front yards, and sidewalks in 1985. And 1975, 1955, 1935, etc. The parents in those cases didn't deserve any of the blame, either.

 

[MsFacetious]

I feel heartsick for his kids that I can't even comprehend how they must be feeling about their father right now!!!

Thank you.

The suspect's family is an understandably often forgotten casualty in all of this. I always stop when the suspect has kids.

When I was younger my Aunt found pornographic pictures of her husband with her son's friends.
Her son was 16 and when LE searched... found to be in most of the pictures.
Her husband had been raping his stepson and friends for years.

They all moved in with us for a few weeks while they awaited charges. I will never forget it. The youngest child was my age.

I watched those kids as they learned what their father had done to their brother.
I watched those kids as they learned that he would be going to jail for a long time.
Those things were hard but they were bearable.

I watched those kids when they found out that he was missing.
I watched those kids when his suicide letters arrived in the mail.
I watched those kids when they finally found his body... knowing it was coming.
Those things... were much harder. He was still their Dad. Overnight it was all gone, their family, their lives were shattered.

I have watched those kids in the years since then... half made it... half could easily be discussion topics here at some point.

I know what the Morgan kids are going to go through. They are going to be labeled as "the child of a perv." The "child of a baby killer."
They WILL have to move and go to school somewhere else. His wife will be blamed by some, who will think she should have seen signs.

I don't know what Shawn Morgan's children are going to want... or how they will feel... but I can't hope that their father is killed.
I just always think... what if Shawn Morgan was your brother in law, or the father or your children? What about his kids?

I know it is really hard to have compassion for anyone other than Breeann's family, that is understandable. I generally think outside the box.
I just keep imagining these kids going through what my cousin's went through... it's horrific. His kids didn't ask for or deserve this either.

Nobody should ever be put in the position that the Rodriguez or Morgan family are currently in. My heart breaks for both families.

:doorhide: Just my opinion. :couch:

 

[ela_ss teacher]

Regarding the polygraph. I always had the idea that if they "failed" it might have been due to the fact that the time in which Breeann was unaccounted for was a generous estimate and they didn't want to admit that she had been unaccounted for for longer. Not placing blame on the grieving parents, just my :twocents: .

I'm praying that today is the day that this baby's body is found. Where are you sweet girl?

 

[deelytful1]

Praying they find Breeann today and that some of our questions are answered at the arraignment raying:

 

[CN2Souls]

Please, Please Let her be found today.... raying:

Give LE the Strength and the wisdom to find her where ever she is...

 

[~n/t~]

I always had faith in polygraphs but after what happened here, I don't trust them anymore for any other cases. Now I understand why some refuse to take them. I wouldn't. Imagine if this perp wasn't caught? We'd be forever wondering about those "failed" polys and the parents involvement.

Taught me a lesson not to judge even if one fails. Billie Dunn comes to mind.

 

[greenpalm]

What would be even scarier...is if this killer and his family socialized together in the past...with the Rodriguez family...ugh!:sick:

THEY DID, according to Marty Miller, a neighbor, at least the children played together. It is not clear if the parents interacted. Some, I'm sure.

http://www.kfvs12.com/story/15268426/more-details-emerge-about-3-year-olds-death

Marty Miller says he and Morgan drove around looking for Breeann right after she disappeared.

"I keep thinking he was right there in the truck with me," said Miller. "All the kids play together out here. Shawn's got a good wife and three little kids. I feel horrible for both families. I guess it just goes to show anything can happen. You never really know."

 

[jadejazzkayla]

Personally, I think they failed (or showed deception) but it was for a reason other than Breeann's disappearance. So they did "fail" the polygraph.

All JMO.

But their failure had nothing to do with incompetence on the part of the FBI polygrapher. They showed deception, and therefore "failed" the polygraph but it was because they were being deceptive about something but were not guilty of harming their daughter.

Again JMO.

bbm...I believe LE lied to the parents. I don't believe the parents lied during the test - about anything.

and it appears to me breeann's dad also believed he was lied to by LE when he talked about their test results on the nancy grace show.

 

[greenpalm]

Polygraphs are perhaps the most controversial tool in law enforcement. Some states and federal court judges now accept lie-detector results, but many states ban them outright. A 1998 Supreme Court decision allowed such bans, but read in part, "There is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable: The scientific community and the state and federal courts are extremely polarized on the matter."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-09-09-lie_x.htm