MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #10

[MDATCA]

I know I need glasses but are those children in the background in the pic with the knife?

It does look it.

 

[wizofoz]

Ok, I'm fairly new to this site but have been reading up on this case since it first came to light. I've taken the last month just like everyone else to digest all the information and come to some sort of conclusion. This case just really bothers me, perhaps because I'm the father of a 15 year old (NOT a local and NO connection to this case whatsoever).

I realize I will probably get flamed but here's my opinion (not that anyone is asking for it). I have read a ton of posts labeling AB a "monster" or hoping that she comes to some great harm in prison, etc, etc. I understand the raw emotions that come with a case like this and in no way excuse what has happened to EO, there is no way to excuse it or understand it.

But I do also feel that the ball was severely dropped on a very sick teenage girl, and I do believe mental illness is just that - a sickness. AB was obviously born of two poor excuses for parents and who knows what trauma and sick acts she was exposed to or had acted upon her at a very young age.

And while I credit the grandparents with taking the kids and trying to start a new life, I'm still left to wonder how a 15 year old girl with known mental/emotional issues could be left unsupervised for what seems like huge amounts of time. Why would you let a girl that tried to commit suicide spend hours on the internet (which she obviously did by the number of webpages and photos she has splattered all across it)? There's never an adult present in any of the videos. I guess all I am saying is that if my daughter had tried to commit suicide, was a cutter with all the evidence on her wrists, and showed other evidence of a "dark" personality...I don't believe spending hours on the internet would be the first thing on her list of activities, in fact I'm pretty sure the internet would be shut down at my house and she certainly wouldn't have a cell phone. And most likely, the door would have been removed from her bedroom. Call it harsh, call it an "invasion" of your teens privacy....or call it parenting.

I'm not saying anyone could have prevented this horrible act - and I know every child that has horrible parents will not end up murdering someone but you cannot discount the fact that her childhood most likely did play a huge roll in who she is. Honestly, if all of the evidence is correct, I hope her parents suffer far more then she does because ultimately, they created this tragic event. If anyone should be labled a monster, it is them.

I am in no way excusing AB for her actions, but I find it terribly sad that this girl felt the only way out of her miserable existence was to take another life. And that miserable existence likely started at a very young age with a life we wouldn't wish on our enemies.

Flame away...

 

[CementPond]

That knife photo looks like it may have been taken in a local library. Or perhaps some church function or something similar? JMO

Does anyone know what the inside of her local library looks like?

 

[Gray]

Looks like some kind of summer camp to me. When I went to church camp and retreats the environment was kind of similar.

 

[MDATCA]

That knife photo looks like it may have been taken in a local library. Or perhaps some church function or something similar? JMO

Does anyone know what the inside of her local library looks like?

My husband and I looked at the pic for a while and zoomed and examined as much as we could. Is it possibly the middle school? We think the pic is older for a few reasons.
1. The scars on AB's wrist don't look as thick from re cutting over and over. There doesn't seem to be as many either.
2. The girls look like they are just beginning puberty. They still are weaing baggy tee shirts. Girls tend to wear tighter fitted tees shirts once they have developed. The hair styles aren't as polished as most HS girls wear. No blow dries or straightening.
3. The bracelets on the "victim" are not the recent style. Even AB's pics with bracelets are different.
4. It is a 2002 winter olympic shirt the "victim" is wearing. It is in decent shape and fits her. So I don't think it is 7-8 years old in the picture.
5. The camera one of the girls is holding looks to be an older model though it is hard to tell for sure. I would LOVE to see the photo(s) she took at that time.

The church hall or rec room is a good thought also. There appears to be duffle bags on the floor. Maybe they are at a retreat or waiting to be picked up from one. That would explain the children in the background. I keep flip flopping on whether they are kids (2 girls in pink) or something else. My husband is going to try in the next few days to zoom in and clean it up to try and see for sure and get moe clues as to where they are, unless we get a positive ID befoe he gets a chance.

 

[Gray]

All I'm saying is, if I was the mother of the girl who is being mock-stabbed, I would be LIVID upon seeing that picture.

 

[wizofoz]

My husband and I looked at the pic for a while and zoomed and examined as much as we could. Is it possibly the middle school? We think the pic is older for a few reasons.
1. The scars on AB's wrist don't look as thick from re cutting over and over. There doesn't seem to be as many either.
2. The girls look like they are just beginning puberty. They still are weaing baggy tee shirts. Girls tend to wear tighter fitted tees shirts once they have developed. The hair styles aren't as polished as most HS girls wear. No blow dries or straightening.
3. The bracelets on the "victim" are not the recent style. Even AB's pics with bracelets are different.
4. It is a 2002 winter olympic shirt the "victim" is wearing. It is in decent shape and fits her. So I don't think it is 7-8 years old in the picture.
5. The camera one of the girls is holding looks to be an older model though it is hard to tell for sure. I would LOVE to see the photo(s) she took at that time.

The church hall or rec room is a good thought also. There appears to be duffle bags on the floor. Maybe they are at a retreat or waiting to be picked up from one. That would explain the children in the background. I keep flip flopping on whether they are kids (2 girls in pink) or something else. My husband is going to try in the next few days to zoom in and clean it up to try and see for sure and get moe clues as to where they are, unless we get a positive ID befoe he gets a chance.

Could pic #20 be the photo the girl with the camera took?

 

[KBL100]

News article with more photos of Alyssa Bustamante: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/23/crimesider/entry5747352.shtml

Click on the photo link under the first paragraph.

Wow!

Does anyone have a guess as to what the charm is on the necklace in pics 1 and 2 (you can see it better in pic 2)? I have a guess, but what I'm thinking seems odd to me. I just want to see if anyone has the same idea as I do.

 

[lajr56]

Ok, I'm fairly new to this site but have been reading up on this case since it first came to light. I've taken the last month just like everyone else to digest all the information and come to some sort of conclusion. This case just really bothers me, perhaps because I'm the father of a 15 year old (NOT a local and NO connection to this case whatsoever).

I realize I will probably get flamed but here's my opinion (not that anyone is asking for it). I have read a ton of posts labeling AB a "monster" or hoping that she comes to some great harm in prison, etc, etc. I understand the raw emotions that come with a case like this and in no way excuse what has happened to EO, there is no way to excuse it or understand it.

But I do also feel that the ball was severely dropped on a very sick teenage girl, and I do believe mental illness is just that - a sickness. AB was obviously born of two poor excuses for parents and who knows what trauma and sick acts she was exposed to or had acted upon her at a very young age.

And while I credit the grandparents with taking the kids and trying to start a new life, I'm still left to wonder how a 15 year old girl with known mental/emotional issues could be left unsupervised for what seems like huge amounts of time. Why would you let a girl that tried to commit suicide spend hours on the internet (which she obviously did by the number of webpages and photos she has splattered all across it)? There's never an adult present in any of the videos. I guess all I am saying is that if my daughter had tried to commit suicide, was a cutter with all the evidence on her wrists, and showed other evidence of a "dark" personality...I don't believe spending hours on the internet would be the first thing on her list of activities, in fact I'm pretty sure the internet would be shut down at my house and she certainly wouldn't have a cell phone. And most likely, the door would have been removed from her bedroom. Call it harsh, call it an "invasion" of your teens privacy....or call it parenting.

I'm not saying anyone could have prevented this horrible act - and I know every child that has horrible parents will not end up murdering someone but you cannot discount the fact that her childhood most likely did play a huge roll in who she is. Honestly, if all of the evidence is correct, I hope her parents suffer far more then she does because ultimately, they created this tragic event. If anyone should be labled a monster, it is them.

I am in no way excusing AB for her actions, but I find it terribly sad that this girl felt the only way out of her miserable existence was to take another life. And that miserable existence likely started at a very young age with a life we wouldn't wish on our enemies.

Flame away...

Wizofoz... I will not flame you AT all. I might sound harsh as well, but I agree with you. While I admire the Grandparents for taking the kids in, I have to say, if you are going to make a commitment, you need to go ALL the way, or else don't do it.
Big, lovely house, horses, cell phones, computers, in home therapy..........BUT NO ONE is checking these kids' computer activity?
I am sorry, but if you are going to give kids this stuff, you better learn how to police it.

My Gosh, look what we have found here on WS's. How and why did the Grandparents not see it? (And BTW, why is her FB and MS still up? I am not talking about making it private-I am talking about shutting it down). This girl was in big trouble emotionally. HUGE trouble.

Flame me if you want also, but as much as Elizabeth was ours, Alyssa was too. And now they are both gone. I cannot help but feel sorry for that.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Does anyone have a guess as to what the charm is on the necklace in pics 1 and 2 (you can see it better in pic 2)? I have a guess, but what I'm thinking seems odd to me. I just want to see if anyone has the same idea as I do.

Could it possibly be a hatchet or cleaver?.. I know Insane clown posse's logo is a little guy carrying a cleaver

 

[gitana1]

Does anyone have a guess as to what the charm is on the necklace in pics 1 and 2 (you can see it better in pic 2)? I have a guess, but what I'm thinking seems odd to me. I just want to see if anyone has the same idea as I do.

Looks like a huge chopping knife.

 

[la_cavalière]

Does anyone have a guess as to what the charm is on the necklace in pics 1 and 2 (you can see it better in pic 2)? I have a guess, but what I'm thinking seems odd to me. I just want to see if anyone has the same idea as I do.

It appears to be a butcher knife. Lovely.

Butcher knife charm

 

[KBL100]

Could it possibly be a hatchet or cleaver?.. I know Insane clown posse's logo is a little guy carrying a cleaver

Looks like a huge chopping knife.

The second image you added is the one that looks similar to what I thought it was. A meat cleaver. I didn't know they made such things or that people (especially teen girls) would wear a charm like that.

 

[gitana1]

Regarding what the grandparents could have done or should have done, it's very hard raising three grandchildren and also having an adult child in the house. I bet they had their plates full. It seems they tried.
I hate the internet for kids. I don't think kids should have access to computers without direct, adult supervision. But, I have known kids whose own parents don't allow them on and don't allow facebook, etc., but who sneak to their friend's houses and create pages for themselves there. Kids have access to computers at school, and libraries as well. Teens are also so tech savvy today. The grandparents may have had no clue about facebook, downloading photos, creating videos, etc.
As to AB's pathology, I do think she is very disturbed, sick and that the ball was dropped somewhere along the line. But I think she clearly knew right from wrong and is not legally insane. Nevertheless, had she received help or been appropriately monitored, this may not have happened.
The big problem I think is that there is not enough funding for quality residential programs for troubled/mentally ill kids. Seems to me that this girl's problems were significant enough that a long-term in patient program would have been appropriate. But, who is going to pay for it?

 

[danni]

Could it possibly be a hatchet or cleaver?.. I know Insane clown posse's logo is a little guy carrying a cleaver

Ladies and gentalmen it is a meat cleaver!
I'm going with the second picture!

 

[JLMcKenna83]

The second image you added is the one that looks similar to what I thought it was. A meat cleaver. I didn't know they made such things or that people (especially teen girls) would wear a charm like that.

Teen girls who are into this band are usually into some strange things themselves.. And AB was obviously into them, one of the pictures of her from Halloween shows her with similar makeup to one of the guys in the band.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I have not posted on this thread before, but have been following the sad case...poor little Elizabeth....

I have zero sympathy for the little monster who killed her....and I am glad they will try her as an adult. I don't think she deserves to be "rehabilitated" and I fear for what happen in the future if they ever let her out

I do question the grandparents...the MH workers ...this was a girl who was suicidal...who had these strange pics on facebook....who told a friend she wanted to "kill someone"

I try to be proactive...what can be learned from a tragedy??

Here I can see that when a teen is ....let's face it...creepy....people need to take action

their friends need to confide in a responsible adult..

the sad FACT is that in so many cases of a teen suicide the kid is giving out warning signals....kids who are going to do violence in a school or ? also give warnings and tell other kids....in all these cases their friends, teachers, family need to be on the lookout

I do understand the idea that the grandparents might have been stressed out....or not that capable....but I question the friends...the shrinks...the teachers...
this girl was deeply troubled

what a tragedy for Elizabeth and her poor family...so cruel and sad

 

[Raebie]

She's not a casual cutter. She has a system.

 

[trigger]

On ID tonight they had on Deadly Women titled young blood but tonights show they had on teens who kill. All these girls that killed someone had a poor upbringing. They all had sick sick parents who subjected them into horrible acts. You have to see it for yourself. Pat Brown was on and she said when a knife is used its a hands on crime, rage., anger a total disregard for life. Scary. Poor Elizabeth. Im just sick over it. If she would have gotten away with this murder she probably would have kept on killing. Just like the girls on this show.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

She's not a casual cutter. She has a system.

It's like she wears her scars as an accessory.. Most cutters hide their scars, whether it's in an underwear line, the thigh, or upper arms and they wear longer sleeved shirts. Cutting is usually a personal private activity.. (I shudder as I call it this..) However the amount of scars on her lower arm leading up from her wrist almost look as if she was proud of what she did.. There's no attempt to hide them what so ever.. (I'm not saying she doesn't have scars that we don't know about.. but..)

MOO