MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #11

[AndresEscobar]

Then you should know that you can only do so much. There are people who are nutty than Grandma's fruitcake that you would never know it until it is too late. AB had been getting help. If it wasn't the help she needed then maybe she outsmarted them.

Oh, i know you can only do so much. I obviously can't go into much detail about my work, but I have a few "repeat clients" despite the help both the court and I have provided. However, none of these clients are 15 years old.

Also, I don't give up trying to help them. I think, based on what AB did, she did not get the help she needed.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I said I wasn't in a position to comment on it because I didn't know the facts of the case so far. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[danni]

Oh, i know you can only do so much. I obviously can't go into much detail about my work, but I have a few "repeat clients" despite the help both the court and I have provided. However, none of these clients are 15 years old.

Also, I don't give up trying to help them. I think, based on what AB did, she did not get the help she needed.

BBM
Have you ever thrown in the towel and said, I can't do it any more.
How long can you help the same person OVER AND OVER again before you just can't do it anymore?
Maybe I am just very weak but I know I can only help a person so many times before I can't do it, if they are not willilng to help themselves after being pulled from the water i can't keep saving that person. At some point I too will drown!

 

[PAXIMUS]

but that is OUR OPINION. and per FOS we can VOICE OUR OPINION SO WHAT GIVES? ARE WE WRONG BECAUSE WE HAVE AN OPINION OR BECAUSE WE VOICE IT OR JUST BECAUE OUR OPINIONS DIFFER FROM YOURS?
Which is it? just so I know not to make the same mistake again!

An opinion is prefaced with "it is my opinion," as in " it is my opinion she is a monster," or "it is my opinion she cannot be helped."

This isnt what I see, I see people making statements of fact such as "she is a monster," or "she cannot be helped." Those are not opinions, they are statements of fact and are therefore potenially LIBELOUS and SLANDEROUS if they cannot be proven to be true.

State your opinion all you want just please be sure to let us know its an opinion, otherwise you could be legally responsible to defend your words.

 

[PAXIMUS]

But it is ok for you to HATE my opinion for wanting justice, but I am supposed to sing kumbaya to your opinion? Hate to tell you this but it aint gonna happen.

I dont HATE your opinion and I have never said I did. I disagree with it.

 

[danni]

An opinion is prefaced with "it is my opinion," as in " it is my opinion she is a monster," or "it is my opinion she cannot be helped."

This isnt what I see, I see people making statements of fact such as "she is a monster," or "she cannot be helped." Those are not opinions, they are statements of fact and are therefore potenially LIBELOUS and SLANDEROUS if they cannot be proven to be true.

State your opinion all you want just please be sure to let us know its an opinion, otherwise you could be legally responsible to defend your words.

But I haven't even stated my opinion either way :'(

 

[AndresEscobar]

BBM
Have you ever thrown in the towel and said, I can't do it any more.
How long can you help the same person OVER AND OVER again before you just can't do it anymore?
Maybe I am just very weak but I know I can only help a person so many times before I can't do it, if they are not willilng to help themselves after being pulled from the water i can't keep saving that person. At some point I too will drown!

My job is to make sure they don't drown. In a lot of instances, my clients lose everything. Their job, their family. And, they're about to lose their freedom too. I'm their friend, counselor, and advocate. My job is to try to get them every bit of help as possible.

 

[PAXIMUS]

But I haven't even stated my opinion either way :'(

Since none of us know the facts of the case and there is a lot of misinformation being brandied about I would say that it is sort of diffcult to have an opinion yet.

My opinion on the case is simply that she shouldnt be tried as an adult because she isnt an adult, period.

I do not know enough facts about the case to opine further.

 

[Csquare]

Since none of us know the facts of the case and there is a lot of misinformation being brandied about I would say that it is sort of diffcult to have an opinion yet.

My opinion on the case is simply that she shouldnt be tried as an adult because she isnt an adult, period.

I do not know enough facts about the case to opine further.

when is she an adult? mentally.

 

[Csquare]

Since none of us know the facts of the case and there is a lot of misinformation being brandied about I would say that it is sort of diffcult to have an opinion yet.

My opinion on the case is simply that she shouldnt be tried as an adult because she isnt an adult, period.

I do not know enough facts about the case to opine further.

Let me opine this. She dug 2 graves the Fri prior to the MURDER of a 9 yo. How many CHILDREN would do this and carry out the MURDER? Yeah she is an ADULT.

 

[PAXIMUS]

when is she an adult? mentally.

I am a not a psychiatrist and psychiatry is not an exact science so there is no way to determine what "mental age" a person may be with any sort of accuracy.

An adult is legally defined as someone 18 years of age or over and I am only concerned with legal matters not medical ones.

She is a minor.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Since none of us know the facts of the case and there is a lot of misinformation being brandied about I would say that it is sort of diffcult to have an opinion yet.

My opinion on the case is simply that she shouldnt be tried as an adult because she isnt an adult, period.

I do not know enough facts about the case to opine further.

Is there a timeline anywhere? I've only seen one speculated on. All I seem to know is: AB dug two graves some time before the murder. At one point, AB led (?) EO out to the woods, allegedly strangled and stabbed her, buried her, all while a search for EO was going on. AB returned home.

EO was then found at some point later (hours? days?), AB did not go to school the next day, but was around the school? Then AB was detained on Friday, two days after the murder.

Is this a rough sketch? Is there anything else we know?

 

[PAXIMUS]

Let me opine this. She dug 2 graves the Fri prior to the MURDER of a 9 yo. How many CHILDREN would do this and carry out the MURDER? Yeah she is an ADULT.

My understanding is that LE has not officially indicated any facts about the graves and that at this point that is only speculation.

IF she did dig a grave its possible that could prove premeditation but one does not need to be an adult to premeditate murder.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Is there a timeline anywhere? I've only seen one speculated on. All I seem to know is: AB dug two graves some time before the murder. At one point, AB led (?) EO out to the woods, allegedly strangled and stabbed her, buried her, all while a search for EO was going on. AB returned home.

EO was then found at some point later (hours? days?), AB did not go to school the next day, but was around the school? Then AB was detained on Friday, two days after the murder.

Is this a rough sketch? Is there anything else we know?

According to this the grave reports are still only rumor:


http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=378610


Another persistent theory is that the female suspect dug a grave in the woods in advance of the murder.

Many say that's plausable for two reasons: One, the charge of first degree murder means authorities believe the murder was pre-meditated. Also, searchers had a hard time finding Elizabeth's body.

 

[AndresEscobar]

My understanding is that LE has not officially indicated any facts about the graves and that at this point that is only speculation.

IF she did dig a grave its possible that could prove premeditation but one does not need to be an adult to premeditate murder.

Wait, so the digging of the graves isn't a confirmed fact?

 

[Prof]

I am not sure why over and over on this thread I have seen suggestions to other posters to take AB and give her a home in their neighborhoods -- Has there been ONE single poster here who suggests that AB should be excused from this horrific crime? has there been one poster here who suggests that she would need a place to live other than a hospital or jail?

No, and I have not seen anyone suggest this anywhere else on the internet or in mainstream media

Just because some of us do have some feelings for AB and her right to a fair trial, and because some of us might be appalled at statements such as she "cannot be fixed" "lock her up for good" and "I'd pull the switch" being directed at a child (!) does NOT
mean in anyway that I think she should be unconfined -- and it does not mean that I don't want her confined for many years

I do not knock anyone's opinion,(but I do pay more attention to it if it is backed up by some sort of evidence)

But it just seems that if anyone expresses any insight or sympathy into the tragedy on both ends of this case, beware the flood of false dilemma posts!

Many times have I seen incarnations of this particular specimen all over the internet:

Either AB is tried as an adult/OR she goes free and kills again (and of course the victim will be either the speaker's child or mine)

Actually that logic contains more than one fallacy, (the first being the False Dilemma of either she is tried as an adult or released in 5 years) because it assumes both that AB will kill again, and that some do not think she will kill again --perhaps a slippery slope, an appeal to fear, and Ad hominem circumstantial are some that apply

 

[lajr56]

Is there a timeline anywhere? I've only seen one speculated on. All I seem to know is: AB dug two graves some time before the murder. At one point, AB led (?) EO out to the woods, allegedly strangled and stabbed her, buried her, all while a search for EO was going on. AB returned home.

EO was then found at some point later (hours? days?), AB did not go to school the next day, but was around the school? Then AB was detained on Friday, two days after the murder.

Is this a rough sketch? Is there anything else we know?

She confessed and led authorities to Elizabeth's body. I think that is what we know at this point.

 

[Csquare]

Wait, so the digging of the graves isn't a confirmed fact?

It was brought out in the certifacation hearing that she had indeed dug 2 graves. They asked who the other one was for and the judge stop the inv for answering. That is testiomony from 2 people who were present for the hearing.

 

[lajr56]

According to this the grave reports are still only rumor:


http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=378610


Another persistent theory is that the female suspect dug a grave in the woods in advance of the murder.

Many say that's plausable for two reasons: One, the charge of first degree murder means authorities believe the murder was pre-meditated. Also, searchers had a hard time finding Elizabeth's body.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am just about sure that the issue of the two graves being dug in advance were testified to at the hearing. So, I think it is more than just internet rumor.

 

[Peace Lover]

Paximus, EndressEscobar, Prof… Thank you for the sound logic, reasoning, ideologies and arguments, you must be adults! (Teehehe)


Maybe AB didn’t dig the graves, they preexisted…

Peace be with you