MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

[AndresEscobar]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this. Music is music. I understand the lyrics in ICP's music are pretty messed up, but 99.9% of kids, IMO, are NOT impressionable enough to take a lyric to heart so much that it would make them kill someone. I've known plenty of people who listened to ICP when they were first out, when I was a lot younger, and weren't into illegal activities anymore than any other child would be. IMO, how a child/teen behaves links directly back to how they were parented, NOT their musical preferences.

Not to mention, these lyrics seem more tongue in cheek and goofy than trying to incite any violence.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Are you referring to the pic where AB had her face painted? If so, I zoomed in closely and the necklace IS a hatchet, not a "J".

Ah, that one. Ok, i just checked that photo and it is indeed a hatchet.

 

[AndresEscobar]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/12/02/12005466-sun.html

Slightly O/T, but a look at how AB might have been treated in the Canadian system, we love to keep crimials happy it seems.....

Based on the tone of this article, I'm going to say this probably isn't canada's most reliable news source (FoxNews Canada?).

ETA: I'm not in a position of authority to speak on Canadian journalism, so maybe they're similar to UK news reporting.

 

[LadyBug99]

IMO - AB being a fan of ICP has nothing to do with this case. Just like the people of CO trying to blame Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shooting. Grasping for straws it seems.

 

[Csquare]

Ah, that one. Ok, i just checked that photo and it is indeed a hatchet.

The one you are refering to is the friend that gave an interview in st louis. Someone stated that it was a cross but then came back and said it was a J.

 

[mixologist74]

IMO - AB being a fan of ICP has nothing to do with this case. Just like the people of CO trying to blame Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shooting. Grasping for straws it seems.

I totally agree and was going to bring up the Columbine/Marilyn Manson connection too. I'm a fan of Manson, and his lyrics don't make me wanna go kill people!

 

[LogicalMinds]

Well here is a "horrorcore" guy who turned to murder it seems
(*Horrorcore" generally describes ICP and similar groups with violent/horrible lyrics)

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1621974/20090921/story.jhtml

Horrorcore Rapper Syko Sam Arraigned On Murder Charges
Richard McCroskey is accused of killing four people, including a teenage fan and her father.

And of course the vast majority of these kids are probably just "acting out" and acting up....there are plenty of Ozzie fans who don't go around eating bat heads and who are responsible parents themselves now LOL

however...taken in light of what Allyssa is charged with, this shows more of her "dark side"

and FYI : I try to post links and facts....when asked I quickly posted link to info on the written evidence that led LE so quickly to Allyssa

Good article...http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/11/alyssa_bustamante_15_charged_w.php

Alyssa attended a Mormon church with her grandparents in Jefferson City and participated in youth activities. Tests at school revealed her as a gifted student who had a propensity to slack on occasion.

Interesting that that particular article also says "But due to defense objections, prosecutors won't say who the other grave was intended for, or what kind of written evidence led them to Bustamante."

My guess is that more will come out in trial

~~~~~~~~~More Mormon info :

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/missouri-teen-who-killed-showed-signs-severe-disturbance


ince moving to St. Martins, Alyssa Bustamante has attended the Jefferson City location of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or Mormon church, with her grandparents. KRCG is told Alyssa participated in several different youth activities at the church.

 

[Csquare]

I am in no way blaming ICP. What I was saying those that consider themselves Jugaloos and Jugelettes are treated different at JCHS. From my personal experince that group of kids were not afraid to take drugs and under age drinking.

As for ICP being a Christian group that is appaling. With lyrics like Mass murder makes me happy Dead bodies makes me happy. Yes this was played at a funeral for a Jugaloo. Whos going chicken hunting is talking about finding Rednecks and killing them. IMO no matter how deep you dig you will not find any Christian relevance or message. That is an insult to Christian music. You might as well say Kanye West is really a Hank Williams SR fan and is going to record Your cheating heart.

 

[AndresEscobar]

(Respectfully snipped for board economy)
[/I]

Thanks for the link confirming AB was in the Mormon church. That's very interesting.

In regards to the SykoSam case, that is actually how I found this board. I've been following it for a while. In my opinion, that case in this one are pretty different cases, but are similar in that they involve young people who committed horrific crimes against even younger people.

 

[akashana]

3 day drug "binge" ?
:banane58:


not crack...would've been up and down and trying to score...they are very IRRATIC....no how...they don't pace out their supply...too short of a high......too eager to use.... more likely to OD than anything else...:nuts:


meth...mayyybe....but you don't do meth alone, for the most part, you've got a buddy///partner (bf) and end up in public not PRIVATE

I JUST STILL DON'T THINK IT WAS INJECTIBLE (no remarks or statements of marks)....I'm going with LSD or just somehow maybe crack smoked...well, I guess that's how u do it right....what happens when you inject coke/crack??????

...still think some kinda drug was a factor :yow:

and why doesn't anyone agree with me on LSD ???

I'm not hurt that you don't....just curious.

/////my personal experience gives me a better perspective on this issue

3 days...um, yeah :dervish:

MY BOLD

From what I know of LSD, very few 15 y/o kids could be under its influence at home or school without everybody knowing they are seriously screwed up. I know that I couldn't be around people on acid if they weren't "cool;" not only would it be nigh on impossible, it would be so seriously stressful as to be pointless to try. It is possible to be around people on a meth binge, even to work or go to school if you are not the type to get overly paranoid, and some don't. Her networking sites did mention addiction before they were shut down, but what a 15 y/o refers to as addiction might not be textbook, of course. With her other mental and emotional problems though, she may have been able to cover for early signs of addiction, or at the least dependence. If I had a child with all of her other problems, I would be more likely to link any additionaly erratic behaviors to those existing problems than to think of drugs as a factor.

 

[Csquare]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this. Music is music. I understand the lyrics in ICP's music are pretty messed up, but 99.9% of kids, IMO, are NOT impressionable enough to take a lyric to heart so much that it would make them kill someone. I've known plenty of people who listened to ICP when they were first out, when I was a lot younger, and weren't into illegal activities anymore than any other child would be. IMO, how a child/teen behaves links directly back to how they were parented, NOT their musical preferences.

99.9% are not impressionable? I have to respectfully disagree with you on that. I had a s/d into the scene and I know for a fact there were more than just .1% that really believed the music and lived it.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I am in no way blaming ICP. What I was saying those that consider themselves Jugaloos and Jugelettes are treated different at JCHS. From my personal experince that group of kids were not afraid to take drugs and under age drinking.

As for ICP being a Christian group that is appaling. With lyrics like Mass murder makes me happy Dead bodies makes me happy. Yes this was played at a funeral for a Jugaloo. Whos going chicken hunting is talking about finding Rednecks and killing them. IMO no matter how deep you dig you will not find any Christian relevance or message. That is an insult to Christian music. You might as well say Kanye West is really a Hank Williams SR fan and is going to record Your cheating heart.

To be fair, Kanye might record "Your Cheating Heart". He seems unpredictable.

But, from ICP's "Thy Unveiling"

Now we have been told this carnival **** has touched many lives.
People have ****** sworn to us they too can feel it inside.
What is it that draws you in, this magic that compels you?
We`ve been waiting six ****** joker cards to finally tell you.
This messengers and hints were there, all though most never picked up on them.
We snuck em` in subliminally with that wicked **** around them.
We mentioned more and more of this on every Joker's Card.
The bottom line always the same, you ain't have to look hard.
We wickedly kick it, inflict it, you get it, get with it and dig we don't preach it flat, cause some ninjas don`t wanna get with ya, they quick to forget ya without the hatchet and gat out.
So we rose the hatchet, do or die, now Juggalos standing tall, after all 6 have risen the end of time will consume us all. It ain't got nothing to do with us, It ain't Psychopathic Records!
All we`re doing is pointing this **** out to you, we in this together! Who`s behind the Dark Carnival, the Gatherings and the hatchet? Who`s beind Dark Lotus, the circus and everybody at it?
Who invented Juggalos and Juggalette and ****** Faygo showers? What about that feeling you get when bumping our ****, who`s behind these Juggalo powers?
This ain`t no ****** fan club, It ain't about making a buck. Don`t buy our ****** action figures *****, i don't give a ****. It ain't About Violent J or Shaggy, the Butterfly or seventeen.
When we speak of Shangri-La, what you think we mean? Truth is we follow GOD, we`ve always been behind him, The Carnival is God and may all Juggalos find him!

May The Juggalos Find Him!
May The Juggalos Find Him!
May The Juggalos Find Him!
He's out there, He's Out there!

We`re not sorry if we tricked you!
We don't care what happens now.
We`re not sorry if we tricked you!
We swing our hatchet and we`re proud.
We`re not sorry if we tricked you!
Painted faces in the crowd.
We`re not sorry if we tricked you!
The Carnival will carry on.


Bolded by me. Not that I like ICP, I think they suck. But, since we're quoting lyrics . . .

 

[Csquare]

To be fair, Kanye might record "Your Cheating Heart". He seems unpredictable.

But, from ICP's "Thy Unveiling"

Now we have been told this carnival **** has touched many lives.
People have ****** sworn to us they too can feel it inside.
What is it that draws you in, this magic that compels you?
We`ve been waiting six ****** joker cards to finally tell you.
This messengers and hints were there, all though most never picked up on them.
We snuck em` in subliminally with that wicked **** around them.
We mentioned more and more of this on every Joker's Card.
The bottom line always the same, you ain't have to look hard.
We wickedly kick it, inflict it, you get it, get with it and dig we don't preach it flat, cause some ninjas don`t wanna get with ya, they quick to forget ya without the hatchet and gat out.
So we rose the hatchet, do or die, now Juggalos standing tall, after all 6 have risen the end of time will consume us all. It ain't got nothing to do with us, It ain't Psychopathic Records!
All we`re doing is pointing this **** out to you, we in this together! Who`s behind the Dark Carnival, the Gatherings and the hatchet? Who`s beind Dark Lotus, the circus and everybody at it?
Who invented Juggalos and Juggalette and ****** Faygo showers? What about that feeling you get when bumping our ****, who`s behind these Juggalo powers?
This ain`t no ****** fan club, It ain't about making a buck. Don`t buy our ****** action figures *****, i don't give a ****. It ain't About Violent J or Shaggy, the Butterfly or seventeen.
When we speak of Shangri-La, what you think we mean? Truth is we follow GOD, we`ve always been behind him, The Carnival is God and may all Juggalos find him!

May The Juggalos Find Him!
May The Juggalos Find Him!
May The Juggalos Find Him!
He's out there, He's Out there!

We`re not sorry if we tricked you!
We don't care what happens now.
We`re not sorry if we tricked you!
We swing our hatchet and we`re proud.
We`re not sorry if we tricked you!
Painted faces in the crowd.
We`re not sorry if we tricked you!
The Carnival will carry on.


Bolded by me. Not that I like ICP, I think they suck. But, since we're quoting lyrics . . .

With all do respect do you know of which God they are refering too?

 

[PAXIMUS]

Well here is a "horrorcore" guy who turned to murder it seems
(*Horrorcore" generally describes ICP and similar groups with violent/horrible lyrics)

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1621974/20090921/story.jhtml

Horrorcore Rapper Syko Sam Arraigned On Murder Charges
Richard McCroskey is accused of killing four people, including a teenage fan and her father.

And of course the vast majority of these kids are probably just "acting out" and acting up....there are plenty of Ozzie fans who don't go around eating bat heads and who are responsible parents themselves now LOL

however...taken in light of what Allyssa is charged with, this shows more of her "dark side"

and FYI : I try to post links and facts....when asked I quickly posted link to info on the written evidence that led LE so quickly to Allyssa

Good article...http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/11/alyssa_bustamante_15_charged_w.php

Alyssa attended a Mormon church with her grandparents in Jefferson City and participated in youth activities. Tests at school revealed her as a gifted student who had a propensity to slack on occasion.

Interesting that that particular article also says "But due to defense objections, prosecutors won't say who the other grave was intended for, or what kind of written evidence led them to Bustamante."

My guess is that more will come out in trial

~~~~~~~~~More Mormon info :

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/missouri-teen-who-killed-showed-signs-severe-disturbance


ince moving to St. Martins, Alyssa Bustamante has attended the Jefferson City location of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or Mormon church, with her grandparents. KRCG is told Alyssa participated in several different youth activities at the church.

Andres and I have been on that case since day one and there is certainly A LOT more to it than the fact that he listened to horrorcore music. We have covered every inch of that case for months now.




Andres assuming she was on prozac what do you think about a prozec defense for AB, I like it so far, it seems very irresponsible that someone with a history of suicide and slicing her wrists would be put on prozac of all drugs and I think thats a defense that needs to be looked at more closely.

 

[W8nC]

Does anyone know FOR SURE that Alyssa listened to ICP music?

I do know for a FACT that she went to a church function (First Christian Church, not the Mormon Church) that featured several Christian bands, as well as the To Write Love On Her Arms speakers in Sept 2008. I do know for a FACT that she listened to Nickleback, Green Day, Marcy Playground, AFI and other mainstream music. Naturally I don't know everything she listened to, but I have not heard anyone mention ICP except as a theory, i.e. no one knows for SURE that she even ever heard of them.

Seems to me the whole Jugalette thing came up based on the Halloween pics, with the meat cleaver necklace. I actually thought the necklace looked something like a straight razor. Given her propensity for cutting, that would be an appropriate symbol, IMOO.

 

[PAXIMUS]

With all do respect do you know of which God they are refering too?

No but sometimes I dont know what god jews, christians or muslims refer to either since I often see them doing all sorts of evil things.

 

[AndresEscobar]

With all do respect do you know of which God they are refering too?

I'm presuming since they refer to themselves as Christians it's the Christian interpretation of God. Whether that's the same God that you or I follow, that's a different debate.

 

[Csquare]

No but sometimes I dont know what god jews, christians or muslims refer to either since I often see them doing all sorts of evil things.

I agree with that. But I can not see someone who claims to be Christian with stage names Violent J and Shaggy Dope. Look I am not blaming them for what she did.

 

[PAXIMUS]

This is just MOO but how can you worship God and be a Christian and write and sing junk like this? As I said in MOO I can not believe a word they say.

How can you worship god and be a christian and take part in things like the inquisition and crusades and salem witch hunts burning people at the stake. Bush claims to be a christian but he had no problem with the mass murder of Fallujah or the torture of Abu Ghraib.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Andres and I have been on that case since day one and there is certainly A LOT more to it than the fact that he listened to horrorcore music. We have covered every inch of that case for months now.




Andres assuming she was on prozac what do you think about a prozec defense for AB, I like it so far, it seems very irresponsible that someone with a history of suicide and slicing her wrists would be put on prozac of all drugs and I think thats a defense that needs to be looked at more closely.

In my opinion, I'd have to know a lot more about what actually happened before attempting a prozac defense. I'm leery of the idea, though.