MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[Bibliophile]

IMHO Allysa's "best hope" is for them to strike some sort of plea deal that provides mental health treatment and some hope of release in like 25 or 30 years...

But that's not really available in Missouri or not in the way I assume you're referring to. The closest would be access to mental health care in prison.

I am not convinced this murder was due to a treatable mental illness. I believe Alyssa has a personality disorder often referred to as sociopathy. However in cases where mental illness is legitimately involved, I think Missouri would be much better served with "guilty but mentally ill" as a plea option. In that way, treatment could be provided and upon conclusion, they would be required to serve their sentence.

 

[jokie7348]

Well whatever "treatment" she gets, I hope the therapists are super skilled and savvy..
since one of the hallmarks of those with personality disorders seems to be their ability to "say what you want to hear"....they are chameleons (or lizards) that will do whatever it takes

Not stupid at all....I am sure Allyssa was "fooling" her therapists, school, grandparents etc

and she could do it again

when one of the key compenents of an illness is the ability of the person with that illness to make others think they don't have it, then what??

I have asked here about "treatment for sociopaths"...what works...so far we have a study from Denmark with teen sociopaths that shows some improvement when they are in a strict structure with totally enforced reward/punishment system...but...there is no indication that any of these teens had gone as "far" as Allyssa...ie, they were not murderers as far as we know

I also found a "blog" post from an admitted sociopath who claims that he does not act out on his impulses, not out of caring, cause he claims he doesn't. He has simply decided that he does not want to go to prison or get DBC (death by cop) or whatever...so he "controls" himself. It seems that he too never murdered anyone

sooooo....what "program"....what specialized therapists...what critera to judge if it worked?? If Allyssa says in 20 years that she feels remorse, do we know that or is it the chameleon??? And in today's strapped economy, who will pay for all of that??

Logical, I love the snake fable maybe because I have known and been fooled by one of those snakes. Thanks for reminding me of it.

I will attempt to share what little information I have learned about psychopathic/sociopathic disorder through formal study and 34 years of observing and counseling children.
The DSM IV is the "bible" for diagnosis of personality disorders. The diagnosis of psychopath/sociopath is actually called antisocial personality disorder. Psychopathic personalities have tended to be diagnosed from psychological/neurological perspectives. Sociopaths tend to be diagnosed from social interaction or lack thereof.
The diagnosis is not given to children or teenagers, only adults. In childhood, the disorder is called oppositional defiant disorder. It can progress to conduct disorder in teenagers and then on to antisocial personality disorder in adulthood.
I actually worked for 8 years as a coordinator of services for children/teens under the special education diagnosis of "emotionally disturbed" or "emotionally handicapped." I ran an alternative school for them, counselled them along with the direction of and help of a licensed psychologist and psychiatrist. Additionally, when it was decided by their committee, I placed them in inpatient treatment facilities. I followed their treatment, IEPs, worked with and took their parents for visits, and re-integrated them into their communities with the help of DCF.
I am not tooting my own horn by telling you this, but I share my personal experience to be able to say this. As long as these children/teens were maintained in a very structured environment, almost all of them could learn and demonstrate "normal" social behaviors. However, the longer they were out in the community again, the more disturbed their behaviors became.
After 8 years of "living" with these children every day and managing their lives, I had to take a break. I went back to school counseling and still worked with many EBD students, teachers, and parents. So I still provided services, just not 24/7.
I am sorry to sound so pessimistic, but I never saw a single student with the oppositional defiant disorder, moving into the conduct disorder as a teen to "recover" or be able to maintain for any sustained length of time.
I do read that there is research on trying to ascertain exactly what the brain disorder is and be able to "fix" it, but it seems that it could be many years before this happens.
I don't post often, and I have gone on too long, but I hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[Bibliophile]

As I was thinking about the possible outcomes of this case, there was another Missouri case I was trying to recall -- IMO, it was one of the most horrific miscarriages of justice in Missouri history.

In the late eighties, Frederick Nevels took an 18 inch pipe wrench and bludgeoned three of his relatives to death. It was a horribly, gruesome murder. The victims were his step grandmother, his sister and his nephew - an eight year old little boy.

He was found not guilty by reason of insanity in 1992 and committed. The reason they gave was that he was psychotic from cocaine and alcohol abuse and had an anti-social personality disorder. A mere five years later, a psychiatrist with the Missouri Department of Mental Health said Revels suffered only from substance abuse and an anti-social personality disorder. He was given a conditional release - twice. In 2008, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit recommended he be unconditionally released.

Acquittals on the grounds of mental disease or defect in Missouri are rare, but IMO, this is one that should have never happened.

But this case illustrates the possibilities should AB attempt this plea. Revels is an exception and it is unlikely she would be successful attempting the plea (for example - Dahmer was dismembering bodies & eating them, but was not declared legally insane) but in the event she was acquitted on these grounds, she's likely to be released at least conditionally, after very little time.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Paximus - I agree the statement 'I wanted to murder someone to see what it felt like to murder' is inflammatory - yes it is! In this case the words came from her and this is her explanation for the murder of a 9yo - she acted on those words. Inflammatory but true! That sentence has been uttered by other child murderers who have gone on to become serial murderers...why shouldn't that statement be considered 'fact'? Maybe some defense attorney will make a case for psychotism and show those words were meaningless, but why render them inadmissible under the auspice of being inflammatory?

I'm going to point out: we don't actually have a video tape or audio recording of her saying this. The quote came from a police officer, who said when asked about a possible motive something to the effect of "she basically said she wanted to know what it felt like." This is not a direct quote, but more the officers summary of what she said. Big difference.

So, we don't know exactly what she said. Therefore, it should not be considered "fact" here, and the court will have access to the transcripts of what she actually said.

That said, the Federal Rules of Evidence, along with state rules of evidence, allow for inflammatory marks to be inadmissible, when their sole purpose is to prejudice the jury.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I understand your position and can see the ethical/moral issues. The problem is Missouri law. Acquittals on the grounds of mental disease or defect do not impose any requirements on length of treatment. She can petition for release every 180 days. While it may be unlikely she would be released within a few years, I think its very possible, given her age, she could be conditionally released in less than ten.

This does little to reassure the public that justice was served or that their communities are safe.

If she can petition for release every 180 days, she still wont be released before she's 25. Probably not even 35. Unless, she gets second degree murder.

If she can and is petitioning (most states have a period of time before she is eligible to start petitioning, or she has to be certified, I haven't done the research here obviously), she will be petitioning to the same group of people. They will also want to make sure justice is done.

No one is going to forget about this case.

Also, I'm not advocating for a not guilty by reason of insanity judgment. Im going to point out that my "position" so to speak on what should be done with AB, assuming that she can be proven guilty, is to be eligible for parole in 25-30 years with court mandated therapy.

 

[jokie7348]

I forgot to say this with regard to personality disorders vs. insanity plea. I am not a lawyer but I believe the criteria for judging insanity have to do with ability to appreciate that the actions were wrong at the time of the crime. So not everybody who has a personality disorder automatically qualifies for an insanity defense. JMOO

 

[PAXIMUS]

I certainly DO NOT think that she should be out in 5 years. Her release should not be considered unil she has served a least 15 years and spent that time in intensive treatment.

Attempting suicide and cutting one's self at such a young age is not normal... neither is killing to see what it feels like the product of a sane and healthy mind. Sorry people but there's more going on with the girl other than merely wanting to know what it felt like to kill someone...

Some time in a mental hospital and the juvenile system is much more appropriate in the case of an ill young girl, I do not think prison is at all. No matter what she did, she is still a 15 year old.


As for her parents I saw on Nancy Grace that both of her parents have a long history of meth use. I do not have a link for that I wish I did, maybe someone else does.

 

[lbminnesota]

I've not read that CB and MB were meth addicts. Can you please provide a link to this? Thanks!

As for her parents I saw on Nancy Grace that both of her parents have a long history of meth use. I do not have a link for that I wish I did, maybe someone else does.

Snipped:
IMO Nancy Grace has no credibility in being a reliable source; her growing reliance on expanding on the facts for the sake of dramatics is disturbing.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Snipped:
IMO Nancy Grace has no credibility in being a reliable source; her growing reliance on expanding on the facts for the sake of dramatics is disturbing.

I agree that Nancy Grace is an idiot and sucks, but if she claimed that her parents were meth users falsely, she'd run into some slander trouble. She was a lawyer, as she loves to remind her viewship: therefore, she would know better.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Snipped:
IMO Nancy Grace has no credibility in being a reliable source; her growing reliance on expanding on the facts for the sake of dramatics is disturbing.

I am certainly not an NG fan I cant stand the woman but I did here her say that and unless she is in the business of defending herself from defamation charges I would have to assume that she has something to back that up.

Also in earlier threads here the mother and father's meth use was widely discussed.

I do not know how far back the use goes but if the mother was using meth or cocaine during ABs pregnancy this would go a long way explaning some of this behavior.

 

[Prof]

AndresEscobar - It would take me days and days to go through the threads and state everyone who felt she deserves a second chance. I am simply referring to the fact that there are two trains of thought re: AB - LWOP, and the opportunity for a second chance when she reaches 21, should that avenue be allowed by the state. I was not aiming my post at anyone in particular, just making some points in general. If you have been reading through the threads there have been some who have presented arguments for both scenarios. I am not looking for an argument or even a debate - just trying to present some food for thought. There will always be supporters of both views in regards to youthful murderers. JMHO

I have been participating on this thread since the first day Elizabeth went missing and at least skimmed every post, and I can confidently state that I have not seen a single poster who has expressed any desire for AB to
have a second chance at 21 or go free as a young adult --

I HAVE seen many posters who want her locked up forever, the key thrown away, (and yes some have mentioned the desire to be able to pull the switch themselves) use the "argument" that AB either get LWOP or she goes free at 21 and lives in your neighborhood---again these are people who want LWOP for AB --

IMO Most posters who see AB as a child, and who would like AB to get a fair trial and possibly some treatment have all stated that AB also needs to be punished and out of society for a long time (not 5 years or even one decade)-

I am not sure why we keep having to defending this idea-

Let's not forget that this is a thread for Elizabeth, and I am under the assumption that we have at least one thing in common posting here -- justice for Elizabeth

I wish you all a peaceful holiday season

 

[PAXIMUS]

I have been participating on this thread since the first day Elizabeth went missing and at least skimmed every post, and I can confidently state that I have not seen a single poster who has expressed any desire for AB to
have a second chance at 21 or go free as a young adult --

I HAVE seen many posters who want her locked up forever, the key thrown away, (and yes some have mentioned the desire to be able to pull the switch themselves) use the "argument" that AB either get LWOP or she goes free at 21 and lives in your neighborhood---again these are people who want LWOP for AB --

IMO Most posters who see AB as a child, and who would like AB to get a fair trial and possibly some treatment have all stated that AB also needs to be punished and out of society for a long time (not 5 years or even one decade)-

I am not sure why we keep having to defending this idea-

Let's not forget that this is a thread for Elizabeth, and I am under the assumption that we have at least one thing in common posting here -- justice for Elizabeth

I wish you all a peaceful holiday season

Thank you prof, you are a breath of fresh air!

 

[eeyorelrn]

I think that the whole issues with the 'release at 21' or only serving 5 years stems soley based on the possibility of her being tried as a juvenile and not an adult. I believe everyones concern was if under Missouri law she would have to be released at 21 if tried and convicted as a minor, that she would not have received the appropriate ammount of counciling and therapy to be able to return to public life safely (for her or others.)

If she is tried as an adult, then we have more options, from my understanding of the threads. Hence why it would probably be best to wait and see what comes out over the next few months reguarding her evaluations and recommendations for care before the armed masses get all restless.

As far as this turning into a forum about Alyssa, I think that is a little off. Elizabeth and Alyssa will forever be tied together because of this terrible deed. In the end, the best justice for Elizabeth SHOULD utlimately be the best course for Alyssa to serve her time. Whether or not that actually happens though, will ultimately be up to the Missouri courts and laws.

 

[Bibliophile]

If she can petition for release every 180 days, she still wont be released before she's 25.

I disagree. You cannot come close to predicting that with any certainty. The Revel case I posted about demonstrates that the heinousness of the crime has little to do w/ the determination. We already know that AB can function in society (she attended and was successful in school, etc..) It is highly probable she would at least be granted a conditional release in the first five years.

United States Supreme Court in Foucha v. Louisiana, 504 U.S. 71 (1992) The Supreme Court held in Foucha that an insanity acquittee could be held only so long as he is both mentally ill and dangerous, and no longer. It also held that future dangerousness, without mental illness, is not a proper basis for continued confinement of an insanity acquittee and that the continued confinement of an insanity acquittee, in the absence of present mental illness, constitutes punishment.

I know I probably sound like a broken record, but in order to make any intelligent judgments on this case, we must consider the jurisdiction. Missouri only allows what Missouri allows.

If she can and is petitioning (most states have a period of time before she is eligible to start petitioning, or she has to be certified, I haven't done the research here obviously), she will be petitioning to the same group of people. They will also want to make sure justice is done.

Justice?? If she is acquitted on the grounds of mental disease or defect it is no longer about justice or punishment - it is about treatment. Its entirely possible she would be released much sooner than any of us would ever dream of.

No one is going to forget about this case.

Also, I'm not advocating for a not guilty by reason of insanity judgment. Im going to point out that my "position" so to speak on what should be done with AB, assuming that she can be proven guilty, is to be eligible for parole in 25-30 years with court mandated therapy.

I understand - but in many ways, Missouri law runs counter to what you believe might be best.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I disagree. You cannot come close to predicting that with any certainty. The Revel case I posted about demonstrates that the heinousness of the crime has little to do w/ the determination. We already know that AB can function in society (she attended and was successful in school, etc..) It is highly probable she would at least be granted a conditional release in the first five years.

United States Supreme Court in Foucha v. Louisiana, 504 U.S. 71 (1992) The Supreme Court held in Foucha that an insanity acquittee could be held only so long as he is both mentally ill and dangerous, and no longer. It also held that future dangerousness, without mental illness, is not a proper basis for continued confinement of an insanity acquittee and that the continued confinement of an insanity acquittee, in the absence of present mental illness, constitutes punishment.

I know I probably sound like a broken record, but in order to make any intelligent judgments on this case, we must consider the jurisdiction. Missouri only allows what Missouri allows.



Justice?? If she is acquitted on the grounds of mental disease or defect it is no longer about justice or punishment - it is about treatment. Its entirely possible she would be released much sooner than any of us would ever dream of.



I understand - but in many ways, Missouri law runs counter to what you believe might be best.

Id say that in order to make any intelligent judgements in this case we must consider the facts and frankly none of us know the facts of the case aside from what he hear in the media and they mostly have no idea what they are talking about.

All I do know is that a 15 year old CHILD whose parents treated her like ****, abused her and drugs and seemingly created a child with mental defects because of it, is wrongfully being tried as an adult and may be refused the intensive psychiatric care that she needs in order to move forward and live a mentally well balanced and productive life because she will likely be rotting away in a cold dark cell with hardened adult criminals three times her age and twenty times her street and prison savvy. She is a child and should be tried as a child and incarcerated as a child and when she becomes an adult she should then be transferred to a medical facility where she should serve at least five more years in the care of medical professionals who can help her overcome her mental illness and learn to understand what within her made her commit this henious crime against a lovely and innocent child like EO.

 

[eeyorelrn]

Id say that in order to make any intelligent judgements in this case we must consider the facts and frankly none of us know the facts of the case aside from what he hear in the media and they mostly have no idea what they are talking about.

All I do know is that a 15 year old CHILD whose parents treated her like ****, abused her and drugs and seemingly created a child with mental defects because of it, is wrongfully being tried as an adult and may be refused the intensive psychiatric care that she needs in order to move forward and live a mentally well balanced and productive life because she will likely be rotting away in a cold dark cell with hardened adult criminals three times her age and twenty times her street and prison savvy. She is a child and should be tried as a child and incarcerated as a child and when she becomes an adult she should then be transferred to a medical facility where she should serve at least five more years in the care of medical professionals who can help her overcome her mental illness and learn to understand what within her made her commit this henious crime against a lovely and innocent child like EO.

A child? :waitasec: Elizabeth was a child. She was 9 years old. Alyssa was 15 years old- no, she wasn't an adult, but she was by far more than capable of understanding the concept that by killing another person, no matter how or why, that it was ending a life, it was wrong, and there were VERY ADULT consequences to her actions. My cousin who died recently had Williams Syndrome. While hers was not a severe case, it was moderate, which means at 25 she functioned on a 12 year olds mentally level at best. She was more than capable of understanding death and the finality of it, and she was more than capable of understanding concepts like why one should not take anothers life, what would happen if one broke that law, what consequences would occur for breaking the law, what jail was, why people go to jail, etc. I find it VERY hard to believe that my 25 yr old cousin functioning at a 12 yr olds mental level could understand the consequences of actions but a 15 year old with I am sure a higher functioning level could not.

We cannot even say for sure that Alyssa HAS or DOESN'T HAVE a mental illness. Even IF she does, there is no cure for mental illness. There is treatment, and that is not always a guarentee that treatment will work. To say something such as "where she should serve at least five more years in the care of medical professionals who can help her overcome her mental illness and learn to understand what within her made her commit this henious crime"... For me, that is a slap in the face. I live every day with Bipolar Disorder. There is no cure for me, there is no 'overcoming' it. There is living with it moment to moment. I cannot always control my actions or my words, but I do know that I have to deal with the ramifications of them after the fact. With 10 years of proper treatment and therapy, I only just begun to learn to deal with my illness. To me, it almost sounds like you are saying that this is something she will 'outgrow' or 'get over' with time and counseling. I WISH it was that easy. I had been treated for depression since 9 years old. At 23, even with 14 years of medications and regular counseling, I still decided to take my own life. I paid the price for my actions, for the pain and anguish that my actions caused those around me. I still pay for them every day. But with a proper diagnosis and treatment, i have learned.

Pardon the digression, but as a former mental health Nurse and someone living with Bipolar, the lack of understanding and in some cases the overthinking of understanding what mental illness is and what it does to someone makes me want to shake someone and yell "Can't you understand it just doesn't go away!" to the top of my lungs.

I guess my :twocents: on it is, at 15 years old, barring mental illness, she was more than capable of knowing that her actions were final, illegal, and had consequences that she would have to deal with. She chose to take a childs life. She has to face the consequences- whether it be juvie til 18 or 21 then jail til parole/death or whatever the jurors decide to give her. Giving a perverbial pass because 'she is just a kid' is a dangerous and costly idea.

PS, my mother is the adult child of a very violent Bipolar alcoholic. Yes, there was a lot of physical abuse as a child. Yes she has LOTS of issues, but she is quite capable of undertanding that breaking the law means consequences, including jail, and was able to at a VERY young age.

 

[Deleted member 718]

I am certainly not an NG fan I cant stand the woman but I did here her say that and unless she is in the business of defending herself from defamation charges I would have to assume that she has something to back that up.

Also in earlier threads here the mother and father's meth use was widely discussed.

I do not know how far back the use goes but if the mother was using meth or cocaine during ABs pregnancy this would go a long way explaning some of this behavior.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ng.html

Here are Nancy's transcripts. I can't find anything there about CB and MB being meth addicts. I searched the previous threads and can't find any other posters suggesting this. Maybe you are confused with another case?

 

[lbminnesota]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ng.html

Here are Nancy's transcripts. I can't find anything there about CB and MB being meth addicts. I searched the previous threads and can't find any other posters suggesting this. Maybe you are confused with another case?

Thanks gliving. From 11/23/09 show; Jostad is one of Nancy's producers.

JOSTAD: Right. Right. Her grandmother has had custody since about 2001 or 2002. Apparently, according to the testimony in court last week, her grandmother provided a happy, stable home for her. Now, we know, however, that her father is serving a 10-year sentence for three assault charges. Her mother, as well, has had some run-ins with the law, including a DUI and an arrest for I believe it was marijuana possession.

 

[Bibliophile]

Id say that in order to make any intelligent judgements in this case we must consider the facts and frankly none of us know the facts of the case aside from what he hear in the media and they mostly have no idea what they are talking about.

I am local. Everything I learned concerning the material facts in this case did not come from the media nor did it come from the rumor mill. I can assure you that with a few, minor exceptions everything that has been reported in the media has been accurate.

All I do know is that a 15 year old CHILD whose parents treated her like ****, abused her and drugs and seemingly created a child with mental defects because of it, is wrongfully being tried as an adult and may be refused the intensive psychiatric care that she needs in order to move forward and live a mentally well balanced and productive life because she will likely be rotting away in a cold dark cell with hardened adult criminals three times her age and twenty times her street and prison savvy. She is a child and should be tried as a child and incarcerated as a child and when she becomes an adult she should then be transferred to a medical facility where she should serve at least five more years in the care of medical professionals who can help her overcome her mental illness and learn to understand what within her made her commit this henious crime against a lovely and innocent child like EO.

I understand your position and I would never claim it is without merit. However, AB has been certified to stand trial as an adult and will be tried according to the laws of this state. Wanting or advocating it should be something other than it is at this point is futile. One may use those energies lobbying the legislature to expand and change the law for the future, but it won't change the course of this case or anything for AB.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Missouri really needs a "guilty but mentally ill" option where the mentally ill would be treated, citizenry could be reassured that public safety was addressed and victims and their families could feel justice was served. Its just not the reality we're dealing with at this time.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I am local. Everything I learned concerning the material facts in this case did not come from the media nor did it come from the rumor mill. I can assure you that with a few, minor exceptions everything that has been reported in the media has been accurate.



I understand your position and I would never claim it is without merit. However, AB has been certified to stand trial as an adult and will be tried according to the laws of this state. Wanting or advocating it should be something other than it is at this point is futile. One may use those energies lobbying the legislature to expand and change the law for the future, but it won't change the course of this case or anything for AB.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Missouri really needs a "guilty but mentally ill" option where the mentally ill would be treated, citizenry could be reassured that public safety was addressed and victims and their families could feel justice was served. Its just not the reality we're dealing with at this time.

Thats cool I didnt know you were local, since that is the case I will certainly assume you know more than I do and would never suggest otherwise. I do understand that what the media is saying may be accurate but in any criminal case and trial there are many things that the media and therefore you and I are not privy to and those things are usually of such importance that they can turn a case one way or another in and of themselves and without knowing that sort of stuff its really hard to know what may or may not happen once the trial starts.

I understand what the laws are concerning her being tried as an adult all I am suggesting is that those laws are wrong, barbaric, archiac and backasswards. It is what it is but I dont have to agree with it or conceed it is anything more than what it is, stupidity. A child is not an adult.