MO - Furious Friends Demand Answers After 3 Men Found Dead at Kansas City Home Days After Watching Football Game, January 2024 #4

[ch_13]

I know a few new years ago in Saskatchewan a friend of mine and 4 others were given laced coke and they died the dealer was charged with manslaughter in all 4 . Jmoo there could and should be charges in my opion

IMO, a drug dealer is someone who sells drugs for profit to people he does not know or at least does not know well, and may be aware that the drugs have been cut with a deadly substance like fentanyl.

I would not call someone a dealer who only buys for himself and others he knows personally, does not make any money and has no knowledge that the drugs have been adulterated.

I realize that sometimes the line is fuzzy, but I don't think anyone who's more or less in the latter category should be charged with manslaughter or murder.

There's a recent case in Texas where a woman whose boyfriend died from drugs she bought (apparently for the two of them to share) was charged with murder. But I believe that to be an overreach.

TX - Girlfriend of fired Texas judge charged with murder in his drug overdose death - Feb 13, 2024

Kami Ludwig, 34, was booked on Monday in the killing of William Shane Nolen, who was a former associate judge in the 323rd District Court. Nolen was in November 2019 fired from the court, which handles juvenile matters, because, as a defendant in a lawsuit filed in Denton County by the...

www.websleuths.com

 

[December]

I was really only posting an example of what could be charged in this case. I don't know enough facts in this case, therefore I am not saying what should be done. Because I think in many cases there might be factors at play that aren't immediately obvious, but can aid in investigation.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Found a MO case that might be similar.

ST. LOUIS – U.S. District Judge Ronnie L. White on Tuesday sentenced a man who provided the fentanyl that killed a Florissant, Missouri woman in 2020 to 13 ½ years in prison.

Jerome Middleton, 46, of Calverton Park, pleaded guilty in June to a felony charge of knowingly distributing fentanyl, resulting in death. He admitted supplying the fentanyl that killed the Florissant woman on Nov. 27, 2020. Middleton, a “runner,” would collect money from people, buy drugs and keep some of the drugs for himself for making the trip. Middleton bought six capsules containing fentanyl in St. Louis and kept three for himself, his plea says. Middleton also admitted going to the victim’s home on the four days preceding her death to provide her with narcotics.

St. Louis County Man Sentenced to 13 ½ Years in Prison for Providing Deadly Fentanyl

Jerome Middleton admitted going to the victim’s home on the four days preceding her death to provide her with narcotics.

www.justice.gov

 

[investikater]

IMO, a drug dealer is someone who sells drugs for profit to people he does not know or at least does not know well, and may be aware that the drugs have been cut with a deadly substance like fentanyl.

I would not call someone a dealer who only buys for himself and others he knows personally, does not make any money and has no knowledge that the drugs have been adulterated.

I realize that sometimes the line is fuzzy, but I don't think anyone who's more or less in the latter category should be charged with manslaughter or murder.

There's a recent case in Texas where a woman whose boyfriend died from drugs she bought (apparently for the two of them to share) was charged with murder. But I believe that to be an overreach.

TX - Girlfriend of fired Texas judge charged with murder in his drug overdose death - Feb 13, 2024

Kami Ludwig, 34, was booked on Monday in the killing of William Shane Nolen, who was a former associate judge in the 323rd District Court. Nolen was in November 2019 fired from the court, which handles juvenile matters, because, as a defendant in a lawsuit filed in Denton County by the...

www.websleuths.com

I disagree I think
The second type of person has committed a crime - buying illegal drugs, giving illegal drugs - that has resulted in a death. That sounds like manslaughter

 

[NCWatcher]

Found a MO case that might be similar.

ST. LOUIS – U.S. District Judge Ronnie L. White on Tuesday sentenced a man who provided the fentanyl that killed a Florissant, Missouri woman in 2020 to 13 ½ years in prison.

Jerome Middleton, 46, of Calverton Park, pleaded guilty in June to a felony charge of knowingly distributing fentanyl, resulting in death. He admitted supplying the fentanyl that killed the Florissant woman on Nov. 27, 2020. Middleton, a “runner,” would collect money from people, buy drugs and keep some of the drugs for himself for making the trip. Middleton bought six capsules containing fentanyl in St. Louis and kept three for himself, his plea says. Middleton also admitted going to the victim’s home on the four days preceding her death to provide her with narcotics.

St. Louis County Man Sentenced to 13 ½ Years in Prison for Providing Deadly Fentanyl

Jerome Middleton admitted going to the victim’s home on the four days preceding her death to provide her with narcotics.

www.justice.gov

I may be missing something but I do not see the above case as being similar to the current case or rather with what likely happened in the current case (since none of us know what happened.)

In the above case, the defendant was convicted of knowingly distributing fentanyl. He was selling capsules of fentanyl. He knew he was selling fentanyl. Buyers knew they were buying fentanyl. He was not selling cocaine or any other drug that had been laced with fentanyl.

We don't know where the drugs that the 3 dead men took came from. And we don't know the form the drugs they took were in. There are lots of possibilities. Personally I do not buy the "Jordan's the chemist" story one of the dead men's cousins has tried to peddle. I do not believe JW "mixed" drugs for the group. If he had, and if he'd been doing drug mixing for 20+ years since high school as the cousin claims, I seriously doubt he would have made a mistake and "accidentally" added 3 times the lethal amount of fentanyl to the mix. And I don't believe he intentionally killed his friends because "they saw something they shouldn't" as another dead man's relative has suggested. It is possible JW bought drugs such as cocaine for the group and what he bought contained fentanyl (& it's possible someone else did too.) IF JW bought tainted drugs, I personally think LE needs to concentrate its efforts higher up the supply chain. Where did the drugs ultimately come from? Stopping the supply higher up would potentially save more lives in the future. Others may disagree but regardless, if JW unknowingly bought tainted cocaine, that doesn't mean he "knowingly" distributed fentanyl as in the above case.
MOO

 

[investikater]

I may be missing something but I do not see the above case as being similar to the current case or rather with what likely happened in the current case (since none of us know what happened.)

In the above case, the defendant was convicted of knowingly distributing fentanyl. He was selling capsules of fentanyl. He knew he was selling fentanyl. Buyers knew they were buying fentanyl. He was not selling cocaine or any other drug that had been laced with fentanyl.

We don't know where the drugs that the 3 dead men took came from. And we don't know the form the drugs they took were in. There are lots of possibilities. Personally I do not buy the "Jordan's the chemist" story one of the dead men's cousins has tried to peddle. I do not believe JW "mixed" drugs for the group. If he had, and if he'd been doing drug mixing for 20+ years since high school as the cousin claims, I seriously doubt he would have made a mistake and "accidentally" added 3 times the lethal amount of fentanyl to the mix. And I don't believe he intentionally killed his friends because "they saw something they shouldn't" as another dead man's relative has suggested. It is possible JW bought drugs such as cocaine for the group and what he bought contained fentanyl (& it's possible someone else did too.) IF JW bought tainted drugs, I personally think LE needs to concentrate its efforts higher up the supply chain. Where did the drugs ultimately come from? Stopping the supply higher up would potentially save more lives in the future. Others may disagree but regardless, if JW unknowingly bought tainted cocaine, that doesn't mean he "knowingly" distributed fentanyl as in the above case.
MOO

It occurs to me that a drug maker could make mistakes if intoxicated while working.

And that they could buy unknowingly tainted ingredients. The ingredients for making drugs are increasingly difficult to get, although if hypothetically he was only making in small quantities that would be less of a problem.

 

[investikater]

This is a lethal amount of fentanyl

It seems to me even someone educated and experienced but working outside a professional laboratory could make a mistake with such a potent substance.

Drug dealers aren't trying to kill all their customers. They are playing with fire because it is so cheap and they're so greedy.

Image source:

5 things everyone should know about fentanyl

Colorado has seen an increase in fentanyl overdoses over the past year. Here are five things everyone should know about fentanyl and how to stay safe.

www.colorado.edu

 

[NCWatcher]

It occurs to me that a drug maker could make mistakes if intoxicated while working.

And that they could buy unknowingly tainted ingredients. The ingredients for making drugs are increasingly difficult to get, although if hypothetically he was only making in small quantities that would be less of a problem.

I guess. Seems quite unlikely to me though that anyone would intentionally mix fentanyl with anything for personal/home use. Or if the person didn't know it was fentanyl, just what would he have intended to mix with cocaine for personal use? Or added to pot? Selling is one thing, personal use quite another. And as a chemist, even if he hasn't been doing lab work professionally recently, surely JW would know about the possibility of purchasing impure ingredients if he was "mixing drugs" particularly if he'd been doing that for over 20 years as the cousin tried to claim. I expect he was aware it's possible to test for the presence of fentanyl too. We also know the amount of fentanyl needed to be fatal is tiny as we've all seen photos. But chemists deal with tiny amounts of things all the time.

While none of us can know what happened, I'm not sure why it's thought more likely JW supplied the drugs than one of the other four men. It seems less likely it was JW to me. Some family members seem to think since he isn't dead he must have done it but that's sounds more like grief talking to me. (And some family still are claiming their family member must have been "pressured" to do drugs. Uh huh.) At any rate, none of that convinces me JW is the culprit. It also seems unlikely to me if JW supplied the drugs, the drugs would have been used so late in the evening. And in all likelihood, used outside the house. MOO

 

[investikater]

I guess. Seems quite unlikely to me though that anyone would intentionally mix fentanyl with anything for personal/home use. Or if the person didn't know it was fentanyl, just what would he have intended to mix with cocaine for personal use? Or added to pot? Selling is one thing, personal use quite another. And as a chemist, even if he hasn't been doing lab work professionally recently, surely JW would know about the possibility of purchasing impure ingredients if he was "mixing drugs" particularly if he'd been doing that for over 20 years as the cousin tried to claim. I expect he was aware it's possible to test for the presence of fentanyl too. We also know the amount of fentanyl needed to be fatal is tiny as we've all seen photos. But chemists deal with tiny amounts of things all the time.

While none of us can know what happened, I'm not sure why it's thought more likely JW supplied the drugs than one of the other four men. It seems less likely it was JW to me. Some family members seem to think since he isn't dead he must have done it but that's sounds more like grief talking to me. (And some family still are claiming their family member must have been "pressured" to do drugs. Uh huh.) At any rate, none of that convinces me JW is the culprit. It also seems unlikely to me if JW supplied the drugs, the drugs would have been used so late in the evening. And in all likelihood, used outside the house. MOO

Good points

 

[steeltowngirl]

I may be missing something but I do not see the above case as being similar to the current case or rather with what likely happened in the current case (since none of us know what happened.)

In the above case, the defendant was convicted of knowingly distributing fentanyl. He was selling capsules of fentanyl. He knew he was selling fentanyl. Buyers knew they were buying fentanyl. He was not selling cocaine or any other drug that had been laced with fentanyl.

We don't know where the drugs that the 3 dead men took came from. And we don't know the form the drugs they took were in. There are lots of possibilities. Personally I do not buy the "Jordan's the chemist" story one of the dead men's cousins has tried to peddle. I do not believe JW "mixed" drugs for the group. If he had, and if he'd been doing drug mixing for 20+ years since high school as the cousin claims, I seriously doubt he would have made a mistake and "accidentally" added 3 times the lethal amount of fentanyl to the mix. And I don't believe he intentionally killed his friends because "they saw something they shouldn't" as another dead man's relative has suggested. It is possible JW bought drugs such as cocaine for the group and what he bought contained fentanyl (& it's possible someone else did too.) IF JW bought tainted drugs, I personally think LE needs to concentrate its efforts higher up the supply chain. Where did the drugs ultimately come from? Stopping the supply higher up would potentially save more lives in the future. Others may disagree but regardless, if JW unknowingly bought tainted cocaine, that doesn't mean he "knowingly" distributed fentanyl as in the above case.
MOO

Right. As you say, none of us know yet what actually happened. That’s why I used the phrase “might be similar” in my post.

Someone knowingly distributed drugs in this case. Unknown if they knew that fentanyl was in the mix - most likely they did not. Unknown who brought the drugs. Could be one of the deceased, for all we know.

Nabbing someone further upstream should be LE’s goal. Prevent others from meeting the same fate.

jmo

 

[Mack the Knife]

While none of us can know what happened, I'm not sure why it's thought more likely JW supplied the drugs than one of the other four men. It seems less likely it was JW to me. Some family members seem to think since he isn't dead he must have done it but that's sounds more like grief talking to me. (And some family still are claiming their family member must have been "pressured" to do drugs. Uh huh.)

(Snipped for focus)
I agree, there is no specific reason to think JW supplied the drugs, despite how confident the families appear. It seems to me that the desire to have legal action taken against whoever supplied the drugs comes from that belief. It’s entirely possible that one of the three deceased brought the drugs over, and if that’s the case, would people have the same vitriol and suggest that he should be blamed?

I understand the desire to blame someone out of grief, but IMO the pain doesn’t give people carte blanche. At the end of the day, JW is alive and will be forced to live with the repercussions of what other people are doing and saying.

 

[December]

Back in the day, people mixed heroin and coke. I mean, not a lot of people, but some people who did hard drugs. Mixing coke and fent seems as if it would have a similar effect although fent is very much stronger than heroin.

But, in this case, we don't know what they intended to take. We ASSUME they meant to just take coke. We don't know what the person providing it said it was. We ASSUME they just claimed it was coke, but we don't know. Etc etc... hopefully, the police can figure that out. Maybe that is what is taking the police so long trying to unsnarl this mess.

Eta.. we really don't know what the police are doing and if they will ever charge anyone with anything. However, even if they don't, maybe they can get some information that will help in other cases in the area.

 

[NCWatcher]

Back in the day, people mixed heroin and coke. I mean, not a lot of people, but some people who did hard drugs. Mixing coke and fent seems as if it would have a similar effect although fent is very much stronger than heroin.

But, in this case, we don't know what they intended to take. We ASSUME they meant to just take coke. We don't know what the person providing it said it was. We ASSUME they just claimed it was coke, but we don't know. Etc etc... hopefully, the police can figure that out. Maybe that is what is taking the police so long trying to unsnarl this mess.

Eta.. we really don't know what the police are doing and if they will ever charge anyone with anything. However, even if they don't, maybe they can get some information that will help in other cases in the area.

You are correct we don't know what happened or who purchased the drugs. It could have been any of the 5 men. And we don't know what drug the dead men intended to take. But it seems pretty unlikely to me the dead men intended to ingest/smoke/shoot an opiate after a long day of heavy drinking and further, they went outside in the cold to do it. That doesn't mean it couldn't have happened that way, but it seems pretty unlikely to me.
MOO

 

[investikater]

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[branmuffin]

IMO, a drug dealer is someone who sells drugs for profit to people he does not know or at least does not know well, and may be aware that the drugs have been cut with a deadly substance like fentanyl.

I would not call someone a dealer who only buys for himself and others he knows personally, does not make any money and has no knowledge that the drugs have been adulterated.

I realize that sometimes the line is fuzzy, but I don't think anyone who's more or less in the latter category should be charged with manslaughter or murder.

There's a recent case in Texas where a woman whose boyfriend died from drugs she bought (apparently for the two of them to share) was charged with murder. But I believe that to be an overreach.

TX - Girlfriend of fired Texas judge charged with murder in his drug overdose death - Feb 13, 2024

Kami Ludwig, 34, was booked on Monday in the killing of William Shane Nolen, who was a former associate judge in the 323rd District Court. Nolen was in November 2019 fired from the court, which handles juvenile matters, because, as a defendant in a lawsuit filed in Denton County by the...

www.websleuths.com

I agree. We don't know who supplied the drugs. It's just as possible that one or all of the three deceased bought drugs for everyone, themselves included. But that shouldn't mean survivors like AWL or JW take the fall for their deaths. To me it's akin to charging survivors of a car crash with multiple victims, where driver and passengers were drunk, of manslaughter. Around 31% of all vehicular deaths involve alcohol yet the sentencing is all over the map with lots of judicial leeway. I don't know whether that's because alcohol is part of the fabric of life for many people who don't see themselves as criminals with a substance dependency yet can easily condemn someone with a drug dependency.

The drug epidemic in the US is terrifying but that type of overreach won't solve the problem. It's an oversimplification. An investigation shouldn't be a kneejerk reaction.

 

[December]

Unfortunately, i have a bad feeling, we won't ever have a very good idea of exactly what happened. But, I am just saying, we need to acknowledge there are blanks in the information we have (and even though the police have more, it's the same for them) and not let imagination fill in the blanks. Even if it seems logical. Because that's a way to miss things.

I have never been to a party where there was drug use that i knew about. I have never been to a party where anyone overdosed. Especially not a small one like this (because everyone knows what everyone else is doing). So, my imagination balks at how do you go from watching Jeopardy to taking a bunch of drugs. For all i know, you just do.

Maybe they weren't all together the entire time or something. Just doing different activities or whatever. We don't know how JW had the house set up, so that makes a big difference in how people use it. (Maybe he had an area to play games different from the area to watch TV for example... I don't know, this is only explaining what i mean when i say that).

 

[Cedars]

Why do so many people want to take such dangerous drugs?

IMO, it's like one of the mothers said, they just want to get high. IMO, these were people who weren't (yet) addicted. But, in their world, it's normalized. Of course you should get high: Go on a trip - a very temporary experience, but a wonderful feeling "cocaine usually make the user feel euphoric, energetic, talkative, mentally alert, and hypersensitive to sight, sound, and touch. The drug can also temporarily decrease the need for food and sleep." What are the short-term effects of cocaine use? | National Institute on Drug Abuse

So, I guess, even after a super fun night of eating junk food, drinking beer, watching the game, hanging with your buddies, watching Jeopardy, it starts to feel kinda boring, so the next fun thing to keep the party atmosphere going, is do some coke.

IMO, a lot of people find ordinary life boring, or perhaps they're a bit anxious, depressed, whatever. They want more excitement, more stimulation, a temporary escape. Even tho the risks of addiction, or poisoning are high, that's longer term thinking: a different part of the brain than the short-term pursuit of the high (even.if it's only been described to you, and a 'friend' is urging you to try it.)

JMO

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Didn't anyone have to work on Monday?

 

[tlcya]

Unfortunately, i have a bad feeling, we won't ever have a very good idea of exactly what happened. But, I am just saying, we need to acknowledge there are blanks in the information we have (and even though the police have more, it's the same for them) and not let imagination fill in the blanks. Even if it seems logical. Because that's a way to miss things.

I have never been to a party where there was drug use that i knew about. I have never been to a party where anyone overdosed. Especially not a small one like this (because everyone knows what everyone else is doing). So, my imagination balks at how do you go from watching Jeopardy to taking a bunch of drugs. For all i know, you just do.

Maybe they weren't all together the entire time or something. Just doing different activities or whatever. We don't know how JW had the house set up, so that makes a big difference in how people use it. (Maybe he had an area to play games different from the area to watch TV for example... I don't know, this is only explaining what i mean when i say that).

I suspect the whole "They left and I fell asleep on the couch" thing is BS I also suspect the whole "we were watching Jeopardy on TV thing is BS.

Maybe they all did the drugs and JW simply lost consciousness first and the friends went out back to smoke. Maybe JW never did the drugs but his three friends did. We will likely never know. Regardless, JW lost three friends and has been dragged by their families for a long period now.

I hope his rehab helps him leave behind the drugs and/or alcohol that has affected his life so poorly and he is able to move forward as a contributing member of society.

I hope the family members are able to move through their grief and don't remain stuck in the anger phase of it for too long.

I get the anger and grief of family members. My own family felt that way about a certain close acquaintance of my nephews after his death. With a little time I have come to feel differently. My nephew was an addict. No matter who he got the fatal fent dose from, he sought out drugs on the street. At the end of the day his choices killed him, hard as that is to stomach and live with, that is where I am with it. the only thing in his system was weed and fent. does that mean he got weed laced with fent? Does it mean he thought he got a Percocet but it was really fent pressed to resemble Percocet? My family will never know. and blaming the person who gave it to him doesn't bring my nephew back.

 

[NCWatcher]

I suspect the whole "They left and I fell asleep on the couch" thing is BS I also suspect the whole "we were watching Jeopardy on TV thing is BS.

Maybe they all did the drugs and JW simply lost consciousness first and the friends went out back to smoke. Maybe JW never did the drugs but his three friends did. We will likely never know. Regardless, JW lost three friends and has been dragged by their families for a long period now.

I hope his rehab helps him leave behind the drugs and/or alcohol that has affected his life so poorly and he is able to move forward as a contributing member of society.

I hope the family members are able to move through their grief and don't remain stuck in the anger phase of it for too long.

I get the anger and grief of family members. My own family felt that way about a certain close acquaintance of my nephews after his death. With a little time I have come to feel differently. My nephew was an addict. No matter who he got the fatal fent dose from, he sought out drugs on the street. At the end of the day his choices killed him, hard as that is to stomach and live with, that is where I am with it. the only thing in his system was weed and fent. does that mean he got weed laced with fent? Does it mean he thought he got a Percocet but it was really fent pressed to resemble Percocet? My family will never know. and blaming the person who gave it to him doesn't bring my nephew back.

I'm sorry about your nephew.

I agree we don't know what happened here and may never really know. But I don't believe JW ever said they were all watching Jeopardy. So far as I know, it's AWL who said through his attorney that when he left (I think he said it was around 11pm -12 am), the 4 men were watching Jeopardy.

I don't think its possible JW & the 3 men all did equal amounts of the drugs IF the family report of the tox report is correct. An OD might have killed the 3 faster due to the additional effects of hypothermia, but 1) no way being in a warm room saves someone who ingested 3 times the usual lethal amount of fentanyl unless that person has a huge (and to me, unbelievable in this case) tolerance. And being the first to pass out from drug use isn't consistent with having a huge tolerance IMO and 2) unless the 3 men were the ones with unbelievable tolerances, I have trouble imagining they decided to go smoke and all were able to wander outside after snorting or smoking so much fentanyl. It makes more sense to me they continued the drug use outside. That doesn't let JW off the hook but it seems a bit more likely to me the drugs belonged to the 3 if they used outside without JW, regardless of whether one accepts JWs story about falling asleep on the couch. And right now, despite the family animosity, there's really no evidence against JW that's public. Not being dead doesn't mean he supplied the drugs.

So far as why people use, in lab settings even rats will work for drugs, cocaine in particular. Interestingly some studies have shown that food-deprived female rats are more likely than food-deprived male rats to choose cocaine over food in a forced-choice procedure. The sex differences are less strong when the amount of food offered is made smaller and the amount of cocaine larger. So biology works against us.
MOO