MO - Grand Jury Proceedings in the shooting case of teen Michael Brown

[reedus23]

With all due respect reedus when the cops stayed away that is when the looting ect happens.

With all due respect as well, I believe the worst of the looting and the QT being burned etc. occurred when the militarized police were present.

 

[reedus23]

What do y'all think about the complaints regarding the $135/hour fees for sunshine requests? There's lot of anger over this right now.

I think we all would agree that disclosure and transparency are desirable here, so there's definitely validity to the arguments that waiver of fees is in the public interest. OTOH, Ferguson is spending beaucoup bucks on police overtime and other costs associated with this situation, and they're granting amnesty and cancelling traffic fines wholesale, and their property tax revenue is most likely on a sharply downward trajectory, so it's not like they have tons of extra money sitting around.

As to the fee itself. The headlines that they're charging 10 times a city worker's salary is just melodrama. They've quoted AP an hourly rate of $135/hour, which is ten times the hourly wage of the lowest-paid entry-level worker in the city clerk's office. So I discount the headline, but I do look at the $135/hour charge.

$135 seems high, on its face. Then I look at what's included in that.

Missouri statutes set the per-page copying fee at 10 cents per page.
Fees for duplicating time (someone to run the copier) are "not to exceed the average hourly rate of pay for clerical staff of the public governmental body."
Research time required for fulfilling records requests may be charged at the actual cost of research time.
Source: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C600-699/6100000026.HTM

Obviously, the bulk of the $135/hour would have to be research time. That would include skilled IT people to fashion and conduct the searches to pull the relevant emails & other requested documents from databases, as well as lawyers & other professionals to review the documents, determine what's relevant to the request, determine what should be exempted from the request, and determine which part(s) need to be redacted. There would probably need to be time spent reviewing state law and case law in determining exemptions and redactions. When you get lawyers involved -- and they have to get lawyers involved -- "actual costs" can easily skyrocket.

So, I end up undecided whether $135 is unreasonable. A Google search doesn't enlighten me as to what average sunshine request fees are or how often fees are waived. What do y'all think?

It's exorbitant but they're not the only ones to do it. I would be curious if they sent the same type of bill to everyone for the robbery records.

 

[CHERIE.T]

So I guess they're going to be allowed to scream all night? Thanks to Johnson?

:dance: sounded that way

 

[sonjay]

It's exorbitant but they're not the only ones to do it. I would be curious if they sent the same type of bill to everyone for the robbery records.

Do you have any idea what their "actual costs" are for pulling the requested documents and having lawyers, etc., review them?

I don't, so I can't draw any conclusions yet about whether that fee is exorbitant. If you have any information on their actual costs, I'd love it if you could share it with us.

 

[CHERIE.T]

If I were a Ferguson LEO I'd be sending my resume to the four corners of the US to get the hell out of Dodge ASAP. When your superiors cut your legs out from under you time and time again, all while you are standing exposed to gunfire, it's time to move on.

And I'm sure the citizens of Ferguson who are trying to sleep, get home from the late shift, get to work, let their babies sleep are sooooooo happy that Johnson has come in to take care of things. I mean, it's so nice and peaceful now, eh? Totaly disgusted.

bbm
agree and you summed it up well ^^^

 

[CHERIE.T]

Give in, give in, give in. This suspending of laws is making me sick.

I don't remember seeing these actions allowed before in the past 20 years..or ever really.
the protesters are allowed to take over the city.

 

[CHERIE.T]

It is so frustrating hearing some of the logic being used. Like the guy saying it could have happened to 'any black person' just walking home from the store. NO. not unless that person bumrushes a cop and punches him, and tries to take his gun....

They're delusional. Those protesters will never admit that the cigarillo thief and attack on OW happened.

AND THAT is way beyond sad.

 

[SugarQueen]

No matter how the GJ comes back you just know these " protesters" are going to tear Ferguson apart! Since Ron Johnson has such a laid back attitude towards them I vote he should be the one to walk out there and tell the protesters what the GJ decided. Hopefully EVERY officer there will need an emergency bathroom break when it happens!! Let RJ deal with what he helped create.

 

[LambChop]

The city charges 10 cents per copy. That would be 1350 copies an hour @ a total cost of $135. That sounds about right.

 

[bettybaby00]

What do y'all think about the complaints regarding the $135/hour fees for sunshine requests? There's lot of anger over this right now.

I think we all would agree that disclosure and transparency are desirable here, so there's definitely validity to the arguments that waiver of fees is in the public interest. OTOH, Ferguson is spending beaucoup bucks on police overtime and other costs associated with this situation, and they're granting amnesty and cancelling traffic fines wholesale, and their property tax revenue is most likely on a sharply downward trajectory, so it's not like they have tons of extra money sitting around.

As to the fee itself. The headlines that they're charging 10 times a city worker's salary is just melodrama. They've quoted AP an hourly rate of $135/hour, which is ten times the hourly wage of the lowest-paid entry-level worker in the city clerk's office. So I discount the headline, but I do look at the $135/hour charge.

$135 seems high, on its face. Then I look at what's included in that.

Missouri statutes set the per-page copying fee at 10 cents per page.
Fees for duplicating time (someone to run the copier) are "not to exceed the average hourly rate of pay for clerical staff of the public governmental body."
Research time required for fulfilling records requests may be charged at the actual cost of research time.
Source: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C600-699/6100000026.HTM


Obviously, the bulk of the $135/hour would have to be research time. That would include skilled IT people to fashion and conduct the searches to pull the relevant emails & other requested documents from databases, as well as lawyers & other professionals to review the documents, determine what's relevant to the request, determine what should be exempted from the request, and determine which part(s) need to be redacted. There would probably need to be time spent reviewing state law and case law in determining exemptions and redactions. When you get lawyers involved -- and they have to get lawyers involved -- "actual costs" can easily skyrocket.

So, I end up undecided whether $135 is unreasonable. A Google search doesn't enlighten me as to what average sunshine request fees are or how often fees are waived. What do y'all think?

Great analysis. :tyou:

Whats interesting to me is that I would think the majority of cases where the FOIA are made, the request comes from the press, especially in this case.

I could be way off, but I would also think that the majority of instances when an average citizen makes a Request for this sort of information, it would be info they'd have access to legally anyway, therefore, no need for a FIOA.

I'm making a generalization, but that's how I'm seeing it. *shrug*

 

[Klood-N]

What First Amendment right gives people the right to break the law despite repeated requests to comply? (Talking about some of the junk coming out of this reporter's mouth...their First Amendment rights are being violated by the cops removing them from the middle of the street, doncha know).

And, if one gets hit by a car, some would probably say LE didn't protect them.

 

[Klood-N]

Gunshots but nobody is moving? Cops or protesters? that's kinda a weird reaction, I'd be running out of the area quickly!!

I'm beginning to wonder how common gunfire was in that area prior to August 9. For example, if that audio that was released some time ago turns out to be authentic and undoctored, the guy recording his love note didn't seem to pause or flinch.

Every time it's reported though, I fear for the police, biz owners, and awful residents.

 

[CHERIE.T]

No matter how the GJ comes back you just know these " protesters" are going to tear Ferguson apart! Since Ron Johnson has such a laid back attitude towards them I vote he should be the one to walk out there and tell the protesters what the GJ decided. Hopefully EVERY officer there will need an emergency bathroom break when it happens!! Let RJ deal with what he helped create.

:laughing:
oh my....great idea about RJ...and the bathroom break.

In all seriousness it's a shame FERG LEOs can't walk off the job that day because I feel their lives will be in grave danger.

 

[Klood-N]

I am glad she has her priorities straight, leave the baby at home with a babysitter. so she can go to the protest and possibly get arrested.

Or shot. Spook/Mya Aaten White, the activist we discussed in other threads was out protesting when she got shot on one of the nights the crowd was firing on LE, iirc. Interestingly, she was a Howard U grad, and Michael's family visited Howard U this week.

 

[DebinGA]

"This is a blog by an anonymous police officer taking part in the response to the riots in Ferguson, MO. If you’re new, I suggest you start with the entry Dissonance."

If you google "Dissonant Winston Smith" you can read this officer's entries beginning with his Aug. 15 "Dissonance" piece, which is an eye-opening revelation of the danger officers faced in the early days. Other entries, every one focused only on the Ferguson saga, cover Aug. 16 until now. It's extremely well-written and fair imo.

 

[Klood-N]

Now they are trying to say that the COPS were the ones shooting at themselves...:sure:

Goes with the twitter theory that the two cops ambushed in separate attacks actually just shot themselves, the Jackson march assault arrests were a set up, Wilson's and other officers' injuries were probably done by other officers to cover for them/blame protestors, Faraci's firebombed their own store...

Marijuana and other drugs (including abusing Adderall) can lead to paranoia. I'm beginning to wonder how common pot use is there, given the records of many around the case. Do they really believe there is a vast conspiracy at work, or is that just a way of deflecting attention from their choices?

It appears there's nothing that would make the protestors believe the shooting is justified. Unreasonable overreaction seems to be the rule. At least if (when) there is rioting after the GJ's decision, there should not be a question about whether the announcement was handled poorly and triggered it. There is no way to announce it and get a reasonable response, IMO.

 

[sonjay]

Whats interesting to me is that I would think the majority of cases where the FOIA are made, the request comes from the press, especially in this case.

I could be way off, but I would also think that the majority of instances when an average citizen makes a Request for this sort of information, it would be info they'd have access to legally anyway, therefore, no need for a FIOA.

I would guess you're right, that most often it's the press doing FOIA requests (or, in the case of Missouri law, Sunshine Act requests; the FOIA is federal). The press can usually afford the fees. Purely guessing, I'd guess that fees are waived most often when it's a small newspaper or other small media operation that truly can't afford the typical fees.

I have no idea what "typical" is, in Missouri. Is $135/hour common for this type of request? Uncommon? How common or uncommon? Is it higher or lower than average? Does $135/hour reflect the actual cost of research time + per-page copy charges + duplicating time? The city, or whoever is quoting that fee, needs to break it down and justify it, IMO. It might be fully justified, or it might not be. Also I'm curious how often and under what circumstances they would normally waive the fee.

 

[Klood-N]

Isn't that really sad that they have to ask

It is sad. If they truly believed the cops were killers, and that the cops were the only ones firing shots, I don't think they'd bring their kids to riot at the FPD.

 

[Frydaddy]

Is Johnson running this show? If so, he is as clueless as Belmar on how to handle crowds. Frankly, if I were in their shoes and they told me to get on the sidewalk, I'd get on the sidewalk on the PD side of the street. Now we're going to see an increase in the violence against people who have only been talking. Yeah, ramping up violence against people who haven't been violent isn't winning many points. Whipping out your baton like you're billy bad against people who haven't been violent isn't impressing anyone. But hey. You did manage to arrest a priest on his knees. Well done.

LOL - I am certain these protests are open to anyone who wants to join. Just find a live feed and let us know when you are about to confront Billy about his baton or Johnson about his cluelessness, on their side of the street, so we can see how effective that is in person!

 

[sonjay]

It appears there's nothing that would make the protestors believe the shooting is justified. Unreasonable overreaction seems to be the rule. At least if (when) there is rioting after the GJ's decision, there should not be a question about whether the announcement was handled poorly and triggered it. There is no way to announce it and get a reasonable response, IMO.

ITA, and that's the really frightening part. Even if they do a total and complete document dump, releasing every bit of testimony and evidence presented to the GJ, at the same time they announce the GJ's findings, I doubt that a single one of the peaceful protesters will take the time to look at any of it. They'll just go straight to even more anger and hatred, more rioting, more looting. I feel so sorry for the good people that live in and near Ferguson. I hope they can manage to get out of town before the announcement. But even if they do, what will they come back to?