MO - Grand Jury Proceedings in the shooting case of teen Michael Brown

[Klood-N]

With all due respect reedus when the cops stayed away that is when the looting ect happens.

And complaining about police being at a police station and needing the road in front of it clear, as is the law, makes no sense. Police weren't at Faraci's when the Molotov cocktails were thrown, they weren't at Beauty Town when it was looted for the 3rd time. The protestors' actions are their own, just as Michael's were.

 

[popsicle]

550 KTRS St. Louis ‏@550KTRS 42s43 seconds ago
Ferguson Calm After Tension Flares Overnight: (Undated) -- Monday night was like many others over the past... http://www.ktrs.com/?p=5972

 

[Klood-N]

Capt Johnson "I agree with some of the things you are saying"

He has to stop this. It fuels their fire, and how does it fit with his anger and hate comments earlier?

 

[Klood-N]

Thanks to everybody who stayed up and posted what happened.

 

[Frydaddy]

I'd put money on it, if the cops just went about their business instead of trying to puff their chests, the people probably would have dispersed by now. They're just giving them a rallying cry and the more they try to intimidate the protesters the more they're making their case that it's an oppressive system.

What's oppressive about the system, specifically? Are the law-abiding people of Ferguson who are home oppressed? If these folks were on your street every night, you'd be totally cool with the racket, the blocking of the street, the interruption of normal life, for 52 days and no end in sight? And who is puffing their chests and intimidating people, specifically?

 

[Klood-N]

Zotos said Wilson is still scheduled to appear at a grand jury proceeding on the drug case Wednesday.

The case was transferred to the grand jury by this office on September 2, 2014 with a hearing to be conducted in the near future. Two officers who were at the scene with Wilson will be called to testify-Magee
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/loca...ilson-christopher-brooks-court-case/16460759/

Magee also clarified in this article released an hour ago that the grand jury that is hearing the Michael Brown evidence will not be the one hearing Brooks' case, as reported yesterday. That makes more sense, as I was thinking a new GJ has probably been empaneled for new cases, and the Brown GJ is now solely being held over to hear evidence surrounding the shooting.

 

[reedus23]

Do you have any idea what their "actual costs" are for pulling the requested documents and having lawyers, etc., review them?

I don't, so I can't draw any conclusions yet about whether that fee is exorbitant. If you have any information on their actual costs, I'd love it if you could share it with us.

Well, I'll do it for them for $50 an hour. lol Seriously though, while I don't know what their actual costs are, I've never paid that much obtaining records before.

 

[reedus23]

The city charges 10 cents per copy. That would be 1350 copies an hour @ a total cost of $135. That sounds about right.

I think the $135 is an hourly rate for the researching. Not $135 for the records. For example, if there's 100 pages, that would be $10 for the copies but if it took 10 hours putting those records together, you have to add $1,350.00 to that, totalling $1,360.00. At least that's how I read it.

 

[LambChop]

It is okay to disagree with a post but in doing so do not, repeat, do not personalize it with the word "you" or "your". There are ways to depersonalize what you are trying to say.

 

[sonjay]

I don't know what their actual costs are

I'd really like to know how a person can come to the conclusion that it's an "exorbitant" fee when a person doesn't know what their actual costs are.

 

[Klood-N]

As far as the fees go, I think it's much ado. Just helps advance the narrative that others proffered and many media outlets grasped ahold of quickly that Ferguson PD are bad. IMO, it was the least important story coming out yesterday, so I didn't dig into it much, but I think I recall one request wanted all of Wilson's and all of Jackson's communications. That's a very broad request and would take time to assemble, determine appropriate privacy and redaction, etc. There have been multiple lawsuits to obtain records, from ACLU and National Bar Association (affiliated with Crump and Parks) for example, that request items not available under Missouri Law, including reports from an open, active investigation. Plus, as we discussed some time ago FPD's phones and systems were hacked and taken down repeatedly by Anonymous, which has to make record keeping and verification far more involved than would normally be the case.

 

[LambChop]

I think the $135 is an hourly rate for the researching. Not $135 for the records. For example, if there's 100 pages, that would be $10 for the copies but if it took 10 hours putting those records together, you have to add $1,350.00 to that, totalling $1,360.00. At least that's how I read it.

It is 10 cents a copy. So 1350 copies an hour is not unheard of. You are charged by the copy. In other words, 10 cents a copy at a rate of $135 an hour.

 

[sonjay]

As far as the fees go, I think it's much ado. Just helps advance the narrative that others proffered and many media outlets grasped ahold of quickly that Ferguson PD are bad. IMO, it was the least important story coming out yesterday, so I didn't dig into it much, but I think I recall one request wanted all of Wilson's and all of Jackson's communications. That's a very broad request and would take time to assemble, determine appropriate privacy and redaction, etc. There have been multiple lawsuits to obtain records, from ACLU and National Bar Association (affiliated with Crump and Parks) for example, that request items not available under Missouri Law, including reports from an open, active investigation. Plus, as we discussed some time ago FPD's phones and systems were hacked and taken down repeatedly by Anonymous, which has to make record keeping and verification far more involved than would normally be the case.

I suspect that it might be exactly what you said. Or, it might not be. If similar requests in the past have been charged at, say, $15/hour or $30/hour, then I would say that yes indeed, whatever office is quoting that fee is being "bad" and they need to revisit that charge. I recognize that they need to take into account the totality of the request and what's involved in fulfilling it -- very broad requests, reviewing records for needed exemptions/redactions, etc. A simple request for a readily available single report of a closed investigation would, of course, be much simpler and should incur a much lower fee than a broad request in the midst of an active investigation.

At this point, I don't know if it's much ado or not. I hope the city is playing fair on this.

 

[sonjay]

It is 10 cents a copy. So 1350 copies an hour is not unheard of. You are charged by the copy. In other words, 10 cents a copy at a rate of $135 an hour.

They charge by the copy -- for the paper and toner, etc. Imagine feeding coins into a coin-operated photocopy machine. That's 10¢ per copy.

They also charge for duplicating time -- paying someone to stand there at the copier and make the copies. That's limited to the "average" hourly rate of clerical workers at governmental entity filling the request.

And they also charge for the searching and researching time -- finding the records and reviewing them. That's "actual cost." Think attorney time.

So there's 3 parts to the fee.

• Per-page copying fee: If they wanted something that was 1,350 pages, they would pay 10¢ per page, or $135.
• Duplicating time: If it took an hour to make those copies (I think it would take a good bit longer than that, but let's pretend it would take an hour), they would pay also $15 or $20 or whatever the average hourly clerical wage is.
• Searching and researching time: If it took an IT person 3 hours to locate the documents at $50/hour, that would be another $150, and if it took a lawyer 5 hours to review those documents at $100/hour, that would be another $500.

I don't know how the $135/hour fee breaks down, or what it includes. All the reports are very vague and light on details.

 

[Klood-N]

Speaking of the ACLU and lawsuits in Ferguson, here is some of the information that came out yesterday.


Today:
Court hearing set for Monday on protest zone in Ferguson

Demonstrators say an area set up as a protest assembly zone is too far from where the media is allowed from the symbolic center of demonstrations at the former quick trip convenience station.
http://kplr11.com/2014/09/28/court-hearing-set-for-monday-on-protest-zone-in-ferguson/

August 14:
ACLU sues to obtain Mike Brown shooting report; sues over recording issue

The suit asks a St. Louis County judge to order the release of the records. They also ask for attorneys fees and costs and a civil penalty for the violation of the law.

The ACLU said Wednesday that they'd made a similar request of Ferguson, but had not yet received a response.

Also today, the ACLU filed a separate federal lawsuit against St. Louis County, Ferguson and Highway Patrol Superintendent Ronald Replogle, seeking to bar them from trying to prevent the news media and public from recording law enforcement actions.

Plaintiff Mustafa Hussein was identified by the ACLU as a journalist with the Argus Media Group.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_e121542f-f920-58ae-af45-74530c4aa499.html

Farrah Fazal, KSDK investigative reporter, reporting on ACLU hearing yesterday

Chief Jon Belmar testified he had final word operations #Ferguson until #Capt Johnson came.@ksdknews

Chief says officers kept peaceful protesters moving#Ferguson to stop criminals from embedding. @ksdknews

Chief said protestors fired shots, threw "bottles filled with urine" at officers . @ksdknews #Ferguson

fail to disperse statute: officers can arrest after "unlawful assembly or riot", off arresting when no assembly/riot.
@farrahfazal


@KMOXKilleen
Seven lawyers are in the court room for this #Ferguson case dealing with police telling protestors to keep walking or face arrest.
https://twitter.com/KMOXKilleen/status/516662225818636290

Under cross examination, ACLU-paid expert admits he's never been to #Ferguson nor talked with any officers who worked unrest there.

ACLU-paid expert testifies police 5-second rule fell disproportionately on minorities in #Ferguson Mo Hwy Patrol lawyer says prove it.




The suit seeks a permanent injunction from U.S.District Judge Catherine Perry, which would prohibit police from enforcing such a rule.

Lawyers for the defendants, St. Louis County and the Missouri Highway Patrol, were expected to present their side later this afternoon, beginning with testimony from county Police Chief Jon Belmar.

The plaintiff is Mustafa Abdullah, an ACLU worker who attended the protests to advise people of their rights and to act as a legal observer.

Officials set up a free speech zone on the south end of West Florissant, where protesters would be able to lawfully congregate.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...b-b3d7-b8e58eef26b1.html#.VCm5trrXdvM.twitter

 

[Minette]

Setting aside for a moment the question of 'when,' HOW do you think the GJ results will be released? How do you think they SHOULD be released? What precautions would you take either way to ensure that reactions are as calm as possible whichever way the verdict goes?

 

[reedus23]

He has to stop this. It fuels their fire, and how does it fit with his anger and hate comments earlier?

It seemed to dissipate their fire last night. What fueled their fire was when a system perceived to be oppressive was acting oppressively. No different than when LE shows up with their BUMs. It's those symbols of oppression that ramp things up.

On another note, the discussion or the "negotiation" I'd like to see happen is to tell the protesters, look, we'll let you peacefully protest. We'll let you do it in the street. In fact, we'll block of a section of the street to make it safe for you. In return, what we as LE want, is not so much for you to move back up on the sidewalk, we want the names of who fired the shots. We want the names of who shot the cop at the community center. These protesters, while not responsible for those shootings, know people who know people who know who fired those shots. Help LE arrest and charge those that are, in fact, acting out violently, and we'll let the peaceful protests continue on with no confrontations, even if you are saying "F" the police and shouting whatever else. That's the kind of "negotiation" and cooperation I'd like to see.

 

[BJS]

I would guess you're right, that most often it's the press doing FOIA requests (or, in the case of Missouri law, Sunshine Act requests; the FOIA is federal). The press can usually afford the fees. Purely guessing, I'd guess that fees are waived most often when it's a small newspaper or other small media operation that truly can't afford the typical fees.

I have no idea what "typical" is, in Missouri. Is $135/hour common for this type of request? Uncommon? How common or uncommon? Is it higher or lower than average? Does $135/hour reflect the actual cost of research time + per-page copy charges + duplicating time? The city, or whoever is quoting that fee, needs to break it down and justify it, IMO. It might be fully justified, or it might not be. Also I'm curious how often and under what circumstances they would normally waive the fee.

Maybe the fees are being assessed so that every idiot saying he's a reporter can't get his/her hands on the information and upload it to the net? If they do that, it would have to be 100% for everyone, including CNN, ABC, etc.

 

[Klood-N]

Several officers arrived about 11 p.m. as some of the protesters moved into the street with their arms locked in an effort to block traffic.

About midnight, one clergyman, the Rev. Osagyefo Sekou, tweeted that he had been arrested.

Rabbi...and other religious leaders were in Ferguson "just to be here as a witness and as a presence, to support the actions of the protesters — not to negotiate, but to support."
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_8795f7ec-bb0f-5741-a9cf-b1b4c3b65f28.html

 

[reedus23]

What's oppressive about the system, specifically? Are the law-abiding people of Ferguson who are home oppressed? If these folks were on your street every night, you'd be totally cool with the racket, the blocking of the street, the interruption of normal life, for 52 days and no end in sight? And who is puffing their chests and intimidating people, specifically?

It's all about perception. And the way LE acted before Johnson got on scene certainly feeds into a perception of oppression. As in, we will beat you into submission. We will do things to you that are against your will. CAN LE do that? I suppose but I also suppose that if FPD or County was in charge of the calls being made at the moment, they didn't help themselves with the DOJ. SHOULD LE do that? MOO is that it shows their incompetence in how to handle this situation.

As to who is puffing their chests...obviously all sides. But that is a given. It still doesn't change questioning how LE reacted to the situation and what the most effective approach is/would be.

As for doing it on my streets, do whatever. I have multiple routes I can go to get to wherever I need to go. The difference with me is that if I saw that it was my neighbor that fired off shots in the air, I'd call LE to let them know.