MO - Grand Jury Proceedings in the shooting case of teen Michael Brown

[reedus23]

The only thing worse than an inaccurate or misplaced perception is a ground swell of support for an inaccurate or misplaced perception. Validating someone’s excuses only adds fuel to an already combustible fire. With all due respect, I don’t see oppression here, I see a ton of exploitation. I don’t see people being beaten into submission or having their rights violated, I see people using rhetoric to excuse their lack of intelligence and inability to control their emotions. I see leaders exploiting those limitations, and then I see people endorsing and supporting both the leaders and the followers. It does a complete disservice to reward or applaud inappropriate behavior, yet that is now SOP in our country.

Johnson came on the scene to appease people, nothing more, nothing less. He tells them what they want to hear or softens the message when he has to tell them something they don’t. DOJ was brought in for the very same reasons. The kinder, more gentle Jackson, same. Proper procedure is not, nor was it ever, the problem…even where I agree with you that procedures must improve. The statements are out there in spades, Wilson’s scalp or else. Everything else is hyperbole.

There is pressure involved here, pressure many of the miscreants obviously do not know how to process or release. THAT is where leaders of protests and supporters of protestors can win. LE is perceived as the enemy because that is what children are taught, either in words or watching those in their circles being handcuffed for misdeeds. LE is perceived as negative authority because there is no negative authority at home. LE is perceived as the limiter in an otherwise limitless existence. Quite simply, there are no boundaries created in the nurture process, LE has the obligation to be that boundary. Johnson and the DOJ should be in grade schools teaching children that lesson, not attempting to extend the boundaries to what a few in the public demand. If I am wrong here, there’d be many more protestors in the streets. If there was truly oppression in Ferguson, half the community would be out there. I doubt recruitment and hired guns from other states would be necessary if Ferguson was this big sociological failure.

Make no mistake, I find merit in some of what you say in a moving forward type of discussion. As for the here and now with these small protest groups, the behavior will dictate the response. You want to hassle businesses and their patrons, clog the streets, drag kids into adult situations, that’s on you. So are the results.

Some people see oppression, some don't. I don't see oppression specific to the MB case, though I certainly have seen spin and rhetoric on either side, though I suppose that is to be expected. I agree there is exploitation as well. I agree that I wish the protesters had more "legitimate" people leading their cause instead of people like Shahid. But, my personal view, is that there is an oppressive system in place in north county, but that extends beyond LE and isn't necessarily directly tied to the MB case. Regarding Johnson's comments, IMO one can also state that they agree with SOME of the things being said without saying that they agree with the manner in which it is being said. That is what I hear Johnson saying. I will admit, that's probably not what the protesters are hearing though. It was the same with Jackson.

I personally don't know if I agree that Johnson is there simply to appease. He also brought out the BUMs when necessary. From my perspective, it's just a balancing act Johnson is having to perform. If he comes out swinging too big of a stick, he will not stop the miscreants from burning more buildings. He can't stop miscreants from shooting at LE. He is balancing putting all of his officers at risk and the public's safety at risk in exchange for what? Getting people to stop beating on a drum? Getting people to stand 10 feet back on the sidewalk? If I'm honest about it, officers make judgment calls every day as to whether or not to enforce laws. Do they ticket the person driving 40 in a 44? Do they ticket the person crossing in the middle of the street instead of the crosswalk? Do they arrest the minor with a 12 pack or just pour out the beer?

It is also my opinion that just because more people don't participate in the protests doesn't mean that they don't believe there needs to be change in Ferguson. First and foremost, many probably do understand the system and are going to let it play out as it relates to OW so they're not going to protest for things that aren't going to happen and can't happen under our system. Others aren't going to show up and protest regardless but they will show up to town hall meetings or council meetings. As an aside, those are the people IMO that will ultimately bring about change, not the protesters. Some don't feel there's anything wrong with the system as is but I'd love to see a poll of Ferguson residents that asks just that question, Do you (I used the "you" word but in reference to Ferguson resident) believe there is oppression in Ferguson?

 

[Klood-N]

“Ever since the website was hacked, it’s been hard to get information up & out to people.” -councilman s/o to Anon lol. #FergusonTownHall
https://twitter.com/MusicOverPeople/status/517093281147400192

This is what I theorized yesterday.

To refresh on the Anonymous attacks:

While some of these requests were made in writing, many requests were made verbally due to the fact that the City’s website and email were down at several points during that week.
http://www.devinjamesgroup.com/ferg...ephanie-karr-makes-statement-on-foi-requests/

That team member, who declined to be identified but said he was out of the country, said the core Ferguson operation is run by about a half-dozen Anonymous operatives, invited by St. Louis activists, with thousands of “Anons” from about 75 different countries “joining in to help.”
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_d81a1da4-ae04-5261-9064-e4c255111c94.html

“Anonymous,” a group of “Hacktivists,” hacked the City of Ferguson’s website Sunday night.

According to officials, none of the city’s e-mails were working Monday morning.
http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...er-attacks-against-Ferguson-PD-270706191.html

Online hacker group Anonymous is taking credit for temporarily taking down the city of Ferguson’s website.

On Sunday, the group spoke out about the case, making a threat to harm local police data bases if they mishandle the protests.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/08/12/city-of-fergusons-website-taken-down-anonymous-takes-credit/

They caused the city’s web servers to crash, forcing officials to communicate by text.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/15/us/ferguson-case-roils-collective-called-anonymous.html?_r=0

The Internet crashed at City Hall here on Tuesday morning. Ferguson’s website went dark. The phones died.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_d81a1da4-ae04-5261-9064-e4c255111c94.html

More Anonymous Fallout
http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/anonymous-got-wrong-ferguson

 

[reedus23]

Thanks for bringing over the question from the townhall. I didn't see too much coverage of what happened.

Although the question seems pretty straight forward, it's a little more grey then these guys understand.

I completely agree with LambChop's post...MBs actions sealed his fate as fleeing after assaulting OW made him a violent felon who posed a risk to everyone in the community. Coincidently FOX had a segment about LE--completely unrelated--where it was emphasized that "line of duty deaths for LE are up 16% in the last year."

The other major contributor to the residents confusion regarding this situation is that OW is not like "you or I," and thats a distinction that they need to become educated about.

Yes, big difference between "your or I" and an officer. As simple as the laws are written differently for the two. Either that or such comments presume there was no justification. Or a little bit of both. Part of the problem is that just as some completely discount certain witness statements in order to express their support for OW, others completely discount anything LE says in order to express support for MB. The reality is that their are grains of accuracy or truth in statements from each side and the job of the GJ is to put together those grains and see what it tells them in the bigger picture.

 

[Klood-N]

Even though these protestors are causing a lot of problems for law abiding citizens in Ferguson, LE, and businesses, it helps to see a poll like this, showing the vast majority of people do not advocate a rush to judgement, as reflected in the residents who challenged the protestors in conversation outside Faraci's.

Approximately 39K votes, 78% say that Darren Wilson should not be arrested.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/poll-should-officer-darren-wilson-be-arrested

 

[popsicle]

Anyone care to guess what kind of preparations LE is making or should make for the festivities that are planned for the 10-13th?

 

[Klood-N]

This information came out last night, but I didn't want to disrupt the livestream conversation.

Ferguson PR consultant told city officials he had a college degree; now he says he doesn't


In his application to the city of Ferguson, and on his profile in the LinkedIn social network, James claimed he had earned a bachelor of science in psychology and biomedical engineering from the University of Memphis in 2003.

James in an Aug. 19 letter to Ferguson City Manager John Shaw that he had organized a "4 year strategic plan to build regional awareness" that drew support from, among others, St. Louis County Executive Charlie Dooley.

James, who has said he is continuing to work for Ferguson without pay, told a reporter in an email that he had "a lot to do" helping the city set up the town hall meetings with city residents set for tonight.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/article_cc328485-3c0c-5fc6-98a0-b66b4ca1739f.html

 

[reedus23]

In many households today there is a mistrust of authority figures. What we saw last night at the pizza restaurant were police engaging in conversations with the protestors in a positive way. This was after a lot of heated back and forth between protestors and patrons of the restaurant. Just plain ordinary everyday people need to get together in their community, sit down and talk about how to improve their relationships in terms of the community coming together again. Keep the authorizes out of it. There must be many volunteer opportunities for people to work together. If they have time to protest they certainly have time to get involved in the needs of their neighborhoods. "Stitches for Snitches" should not be a banner for ruling how a neighborhood functions. Just my 2 cents.

Agree with everything in that post Lambchop. While I think that it is more important for the residents to get involved with their neighborhoods in a positive manner, I would simply add, I think it's important that LEOs also get involved in the neighborhoods. Sports seems to be a great way of reaching the kids when they're younger. Coach a basketball team of 2nd graders once a week for a month or so. Whatever it might be, where residents can get to know officers as people and not a thing known as "law enforcement" or a thing known as "authority".

 

[Klood-N]

Anyone care to guess what kind of preparations LE is making or should make for the festivities that are planned for the 10-13th?

I bet they're tracking the plans online and keeping track of which individuals and groups say they are planning to attend.

 

[Lovejac]

:seeya: we're awake :lol:



I really don't understand why young kids are being exposed to this kind of atmosphere? It's beyond dangerous.

If you can't afford/have a babysitter then you don't go out. PERIOD

What I don't get is the protesters say they are afraid of the police and afraid that the police are going to shoot their children dead in the street for being black BUT they bring these children to protests where there are police with guns?? Really?

 

[DebinGA]

I think the belief has always been that if you will openly attack and/or kill a police officer, you would be willing to kill anyone. So if you try to get a police officer's gun you will probably use it on them or anyone else in the area. That is probably what was in Officer Wilson's mind at the time he shot Michael Brown. jmo

http://hub.jhu.edu/magazine/2013/fall/guns-kill-cops-statistics

In 93% of officers killed on duty incidents, gunshots were the cause. The gun used was the officer's 10% of the time.

"In 10 percent of cases, officers were shot with their own guns. In 43 percent of the homicides, the victims were working alone, often responding to domestic disturbance calls. "They would arrive on the scene and they would be ambushed and they weren't prepared," Swedler says."

 

[Klood-N]

Arrested in Ferguson: What It's Like to Go to Jail While Protesters Negotiate Your Release
**Warning: language

Angelique Kidd has learned her lesson. "When you're at a protest and someone starts saying, 'Link arms,' don't do it," she says.

The protesters inched from the curb onto the street after police asked them multiple times to stay on the sidewalk.

"I linked arms with the people on either side of me, and then there was a call to push forward, so a bunch of people, including me, stepped off the sidewalk," says Kidd. "And then the cops started coming toward us."

Everyone who was arrested Sunday night was given a summons to appear in court instead of paying a $1,000 bond.
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/da...d_sunday_night_tells_about_her_experience.php

Not liking the conditions in jail should be a deterrent to committing a crime again.

 

[dandy]

I bet they're tracking the plans online and keeping track of which individuals and groups say they are planning to attend.

i kinda feel sorry for the guy/gal that's assigned to this - it's totally crazy online. and i'll keep on saying it lol - bring out the floodlites!

i think it'd be good to see city/county officials in person during this weekend. most of the msm's videos don't have the audio - which is critical to capturing the mood.

 

[dandy]

What I don't get is the protesters say they are afraid of the police and afraid that the police are going to shoot their children dead in the street for being black BUT they bring these children to protests where there are police with guns?? Really?

there's alot i don't get - but hopefully people in ferguson will start talking 1 on 1 - but conversation stops when a voice is raised or uses the f word.

lol - employ dr. phil's listening technique - repeat back what you just heard the other person say.

 

[bettybaby00]

Even though these protestors are causing a lot of problems for law abiding citizens in Ferguson, LE, and businesses, it helps to see a poll like this, showing the vast majority of people do not advocate a rush to judgement, as reflected in the residents who challenged the protestors in conversation outside Faraci's.

Approximately 39K votes, 78% say that Darren Wilson should not be arrested.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/poll-should-officer-darren-wilson-be-arrested

Very interesting considering the amount of people who voted, and considering the likely voting audience I'm kinda shocked at the results.

Not many comments, but this one was on point IMO

Usually before someone is arrested there has to be some probable cause for that arrest and opinion and emotion is not that cause.

 

[Lovejac]

And another one. Until October 15

http://www.stlamerican.com/news/local_news/article_7d2e25be-4004-11e4-bb85-2ba627a86739.html

 

[bettybaby00]

Arrested in Ferguson: What It's Like to Go to Jail While Protesters Negotiate Your Release
**Warning: language

Angelique Kidd has learned her lesson. "When you're at a protest and someone starts saying, 'Link arms,' don't do it," she says.

The protesters inched from the curb onto the street after police asked them multiple times to stay on the sidewalk.

"I linked arms with the people on either side of me, and then there was a call to push forward, so a bunch of people, including me, stepped off the sidewalk," says Kidd. "And then the cops started coming toward us."

Everyone who was arrested Sunday night was given a summons to appear in court instead of paying a $1,000 bond.
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/da...d_sunday_night_tells_about_her_experience.php

Not liking the conditions in jail should be a deterrent to committing a crime again.

What's significant to her story is that she wanted to comply with the demand to move back to the sidewalk, but couldn't, and subsequently was forced (her word) into the street.

This is why demonstrations of any kind can be a risky proposition. Anything, and everything can, and likely will happen. Standing up for one's beliefs is admirable, but it can often be dangerous, and it's why I feel so strongly that kids shouldn't be anywhere near this situation. Especially when many protestors are the ones guilty of instigating events toward violence

 

[krimekat]

I can't help but contribute the fact that most of the mobsters are clueless to how the justice system works -- education is key & I'm not convinced they know what they're protesting against/for. What if there was no Due Process? How many of these people would be sitting in jail/prison?

and chances are even if indicted, ODW will not be charged with 1st degree murder :laugh:

Honestly, if the Cards are in the play offs, none of the hotels downtown & surrounding areas will be available to out of town antagonizers IMHO

Supporting Officer Darren Wilson & all LEOs who do their job & keep us protected & safe

 

[Lovejac]

The program was scheduled to start on Sept. 15, but she said the court took cases early when word spread through the media. As of Monday, 63 warrants had been recalled, she said.

Nice to see that all the people complaining about warrants are rushing in to get them forgiven :facepalm:

 

[dandy]

caution watching this if young children around:

http://www.handsupunited.org/police-raid-ferguson-organizers

 

[Klood-N]

In Ferguson, protesters and police forced to learn as they go amid continued standoff

Acting on a complaint by a business owner, police descended on the encampment...
Last week, police said the owner no longer wanted them on the property and gave them six days to leave. Eight days later, the group still had not left. So the chief said his officers “helped them move” by picking up their belongings and sending them to a storage facility 20 miles away.

Police Chief Thomas Jackson said his department is trying to use “a variety of tactics and trying to see what works best.” He is most interested, he said, in breaking up any scenario that could cause a disruption.

“The tactics we use is largely determined by the number of, not to use the word ‘agitators,’ but people interested in causing chaos,” Jackson said. “If they are in the crowd, they can heat things up and change the mood.”

“People are angrier now than ever before,” said Patricia Bynes, the Democratic committeewoman for Ferguson Township.

“I just pray there is an indictment,” Moore responded. “If not, I don’t know if we’ll be okay.”

“It’s personal,” she said. “I was 6 years old when the police killed my dad.”

Her father, William Darnell Harlston, was shot by an off-duty St. Louis officer in 2001. Harlston, according to media reports, had robbed two men selling stuffed animals.

“All I know was he went to get beers and never came back,” Jones said. “So I’m going to fight for Mike Brown, and for him, and for me.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...6c7980-481b-11e4-a046-120a8a855cca_story.html

Long interesting read. It's not surprising that some of the protestors breaking the law and wishing death on LE have criminal records (Bassem, Shahid, Vickers) or their family does, which just makes me think of Michael. Jones' father shot the two vendors, per articles online. There's a resentment toward authority and consequences among some in that area.