MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #14

[Footwarrior]

No, I don't think it was a small move either, but on the other hand, I'm not sure what he was trying to prove, if he was in his right mind. Do you know why he took the drinks, set 'em on the wall, and stood back to be executed? I sure as 'ell don't, unless he was not in his right mind.

I don't even understand why they killed him, or why there wasn't a riot at that point. I would have understood that.

It was a situation where using a taser or pepper spray to subdue the man would be aporopriate. But that never seemed to occur to these officers.

If you watch the cell phone video after the shooting, it's clear the police have no respect for the people of this neighborhood. They just order them to move with a hand on their sidearm to make the point. Nor did they have any interest in finding witnesses to this shooting.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'd like to give ya a heads up, but it was clear to me that young man was executed. He wasn't even close to LE. They just killed him for not much reason, in my opinion.

On the other end of the spectrum, there was good reason, as far as I'm concerned, to shoot MB after assaulting DW.

I just calls it as I sees it.

http://youtu.be/9igSoJHEdUo

Details dangers that you may not have understood. Covers the 21 foot safety rule.


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[TheDuchess]

Not enough information for me to have an opinion.


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Well...no other information really, just a general question. Let's use the guy with the knife and the soda cans. Say police have responded, the suspect is armed (in this case brandishing a knife as opposed to a gun.) The cops come out and tell him repeatedly to drop the knife. He doesn't take any steps toward the officers - they are basically standing at a complete stalemate, cop pointing gun, suspect has a knife. Is it ever OK for the officers to shoot? If they tell the suspect 5 times say, but the suspect literally just stands there. Are they trained to shoot at any point during a standoff like this, or are they supposed to just shoot at a certain point. I'm not asking if it is right or moral or whatever, just wondering what the standard is in a situation like that.

 

[K_Z]

NPR: "Typically, he says, someone gets stopped for a rolling stop at a stop sign, or for a broken tail light. Then police find other problems. "It's driving while suspended, no proof of insurance and failure to register a vehicle," he says. The fines and fees can add up to hundreds, even thousands of dollars."

None are minor offenses. Everyone stopped for a minor offense must produce a current driver's license, proof of insurance, and car registration. I imagine that's the law throughout America.

In my state, no proof of insurance is also a mandatory court appearance.

Discovered this because a young woman backed into my car in a restaurant parking lot, and she had no plates, fake temporary tag in window, no driver's license, and no insurance. And a baby in her car not in a carseat. Police handled the situation. She was arrested and the car impounded. My insurance adjustor told me she found out the woman had an outstanding arrest warrant, in addition to the no license/ no insurance situation. Just goes to show how bad decisions can snowball and rapidly escalate.

 

[TheDuchess]

It was a situation where using a taser or pepper spray to subdue the man would be aporopriate. But that never seemed to occur to these officers.

If you watch the cell phone video after the shooting, it's clear the police have no respect for the people of this neighborhood. They just order them to move with a hand on their sidearm to make the point. Nor did they have any interest in finding witnesses to this shooting.

I do not agree that speaking in a serious tone and commanding authority shows disrespect to the neighborhood. They are trained to close off the immediate area immediately to preserve the integrity of the scene. They don't have time for niceties, IMO. The moment they let down their guard, it is very simple for things to escalate quickly.

 

[Trident]

http://youtu.be/9igSoJHEdUo

Details dangers that you may not have understood. Covers the 21 foot safety rule.


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I watched the video, it wasn't even close to what happened. That young man was too far away to present any danger. I'm sorry he died the way he did, as far as I'm concerned there was no cause, and from the audio on the video, no one else thought so either. I just wonder why no one cares about him - I do. Rest in peace young man - trying to make a statement, I believe. To me, every life is precious, and this one especially, because he spoke out in the only way he knew how. I totally respect that. May God take notice.

My opinion only

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well...no other information really, just a general question. Let's use the guy with the knife and the soda cans. Say police have responded, the suspect is armed (in this case brandishing a knife as opposed to a gun.) The cops come out and tell him repeatedly to drop the knife. He doesn't take any steps toward the officers - they are basically standing at a complete stalemate, cop pointing gun, suspect has a knife. Is it ever OK for the officers to shoot? If they tell the suspect 5 times say, but the suspect literally just stands there. Are they trained to shoot at any point during a standoff like this, or are they supposed to just shoot at a certain point. I'm not asking if it is right or moral or whatever, just wondering what the standard is in a situation like that.

IMO If he just stood there, knife at his side and didn't move...no he should not be shot.

But as you know, that's not what happened in that case.


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[Linda7NJ]

I watched the video, it wasn't even close to what happened. That young man was too far away to present any danger. I'm sorry he died the way he did, as far as I'm concerned there was no cause, and from the audio on the video, no one else thought so either. I just wonder why no one cares about him - I do. Rest in peace young man - trying to make a statement, I believe. To me, every life is precious, and this one especially, because he spoke out in the only way he knew how. I totally respect that. May God take notice.

My opinion only

Please link me to distance away from officers and the direction he was moving in....


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[Clar]

It was a situation where using a taser or pepper spray to subdue the man would be appropriate. But that never seemed to occur to these officers.

If you watch the cell phone video after the shooting, it's clear the police have no respect for the people of this neighborhood. They just order them to move with a hand on their sidearm to make the point. Nor did they have any interest in finding witnesses to this shooting.

IMO

I agree, if they had one available, as far as the taser is concerned, as someone who has first hand experience with being pepper-sprayed (stupid things people do on bets) I'd say that Pepper-spraying a person who is armed (in particular with a edged weapon) is very dangerous. Depending on the individual it may have no real effect, and you just put yourself in dangerous proximity to a armed individual who even pepper-sprayed may lash out and cause significant injury.

It is not a police officers job to be injured nor take unnecessary risks, also I hear a lot of people say "He only has a knife, why don't they disarm him?" is another popular statement I hear, again from first-hand experience disarming a armed individual is a very dangerous proposition, especially when you have no idea as to the armed individual's level of proficiency.

I'd say that is a two way street, its possible that the people of Ferguson do not have any respect for the authority of the police there either. Based on the protest videos and if the theory that MB assaulted OW, I would say it comes as no surprise the officer wanted to have his sidearm ready to go.0

 

[bettybaby00]

Considering I got a ticket for my plate registration being out of date two weeks ago that is costing me a $120 fine to make right and I am the working poor who has spent the last three summers living without gas in my home because I can't afford the bill, I am less than impressed by those who use it as an excuse to say the rules are unfair. Insurance is a requirement. Registration is a requirement. A valid Drivers License is a requirement. I broke the rules, I was at a stoplight. A police officer rolled up behind me, and sure enough as soon as the light changed he pulled me over. Did I scream it is unfair and raise a ruckus? No.

Because the laws and rules apply to me (a poor person) just as much as they do to others. I accepted my ticket, apologized for my error, drove off from the police officer, went immediately and addressed the registration problem, went without the rest of the week and this week am paying my fine - no mean feat when you make what I make.

What I did not do was claim I had been profiled or picked on or that I am poor and should get a bye or get mouthy with the officer who pulled me over while doing his job.

yup….and with many of these infractions i.e., expired registration or inspection the ticket can be thrown out if you show that you've rectified the problem by a certain date.

non payment of summonses have large penalties when not paid on time, you know kinda like loan sharks. the longer you put it off, the worse it gets.

is that fair? maybe not. but then again if you can't afford to maintain your car correctly, which includes having insurance etc., then maybe you shouldn't have a car in the first place.

i don't mean to sound like i have no empathy, the working poor is a real issue. when i was growing up my parents lived pay check to paycheck, and my dad often worked multiple jobs at one time. most fathers did. in fact, back in the day, many needed "2" incomes to survive. difference was, mom still stayed home with the kids, and the dads were the ones bringing home "2 paychecks."

when my parents almost lost their house, my mom said "that's it," and cut up the credit cards, used only cash for everything and set priorities on what that money would be spent on. if you truly can't afford the necessities, then reevaluate what you're spending your money on. that means no iPhones for everyone in the family with unlimited talk, text, and data, no Xbox, or $200 sneakers.

i know its not easy, i saw my parents struggle…but when i wanted something "new" and it wasn't a necessity my mother said, "we can't afford it," and i shut up and got over it.

 

[Frydaddy]

Racial tensions are part of the problem in Ferguson, but there are other factors at work.

The town of Ferguson balances it's budget with fines for minor infractions. The police are expected to issue tickets for things that would at most result in a warning in other communities. A recent study found the average household in Ferguson owes about $2,500 in fines and fees.

The people of Ferguson do not see the police as part of the community. The police seem to share this attitude. It isn't helped by the fact that most of the officers live outside of town.

Compared to Canada, police in the US are quick to resort to lethal force. Just a few days after MB was shot, a clearly disturbed man was gunned down only a few miles from Ferguson. The police made no attempt to calm him down when they arrived on the scene. Nor did they attempt to subdue him with non lethal weapons. They just got out of the car with firearms drawn and started yelling. When the suspect made a small move toward the police, they started shooting and kept firing even after he was down.

I think it important to note some misleading information here, relative to the link you provided.

1. While revenues from fines make up the second highest budget income item, it only represents 13% of income for Ferguson.

2. Fines are not used to balance the budget, the budget had and has a shortfall. Bond issue proceeds were used the last two years to balance the budget.

3. If you look at the Ferguson annual operating budget for 2013-2014, the document for which your link and comments are based on, specific to page 19, you will see a statement that reads "All other revenue items are considered to be measurable and available only when cash is received by the government. This includes licenses and permits, charges for services, fines and forfeitures, and miscellaneous revenues." Thus, charging people fines and fees they cannot or will not ever pay is not helpful to the budget. Not to mention that fines and fees collected by a particular city does not necessarily mean those fees were collected solely from residents of that city.

4. If you look at same document, page 44, you will see a statement that reads "Municipal Court Fines are a product of the penal system. It is not the City's policy to maximize its government finances through the use of the judicial process. Therefore, Court Fines are not considered a targeted revenue source that the City strives to achieve." As someone said, laws are made, laws are broken, laws are enforced - for ALL people equally.

http://www.fergusoncity.com/DocumentCenter/View/1609 (If this link does not work, much like the footnote in the study you linked did not, you may have to navigate to the official website of the City of Ferguson to find the budget)

Like most conversations about racial tensions, comparing and contrasting one community to the next, and speaking for the people of Ferguson with regards to their attitudes, it's often activist opinion and emotion and not fact-based intellectual property that is used to form conclusions.

 

[DebinGA]

Officers, especially ones working alone, are probably trained to speak in a "no nonsense" tone. Not all, but some thinking of challenging him/her will back off if it's immediately clear this is not Officer Friendly. Chief Jon Belmar speaks in that clear, authoritative way.

 

[Frydaddy]

I'd like to give ya a heads up, but it was clear to me that young man was executed. He wasn't even close to LE. They just killed him for not much reason, in my opinion.

On the other end of the spectrum, there was good reason, as far as I'm concerned, to shoot MB after assaulting DW.

I just calls it as I sees it.

Whatever the case, right or wrong, that situation is far more representative of the dynamics being portrayed in Ferguson and it's on video and no protest groups are batting an eye. Curious!

 

[TheDuchess]

IMO If he just stood there, knife at his side and didn't move...no he should not be shot.

But as you know, that's not what happened in that case.


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I just find it mind boggling how little people are completely unaware of what the definition of when lethal force is to be used. I was reading some of the comments on the youtube video you posted and actually chuckled a little bit. One person mentioned that if they were the cop, they would have run away. Really? LOL! You're the cop! It's your job NOT to run. It's your job to handle the situation at hand. I also laugh when I hear people say they should taze them. Using this case as an example - officers respond to an armed robbery (doesn't matter it was soda, this wasn't a shoplifting, it was an armed robbery.) Are they supposed to approach a knife wielding suspect with tazers or pepper spray? You don't take a knife to a gunfight and you don't bring tazers and pepper spray to a knife fight either.

Police MUST be able to be properly armed to have the upper hand, otherwise, the upper hand defaults to the suspect, who has already displayed their willingness to use force. To expect the officer, whose job it is to apprehend a suspect, to use less lethal force than the suspect is using, or to retreat, is just plain ignorance of the law and ignorance of police tactics. LE must get the benefit of the doubt in situations like these. As the chief said, it is reasonable for LE officer to go home at the end of his shift.

 

[Trident]

Please link me to distance away from officers and the direction he was moving in....


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From what I saw and heard on the video (which captured it ALL), he stood there. He didn't rush them, he stood there, and they killed him.

BTW, did you ever see the "knife" he was holding? I didn't. How close would he have had to be to use it on ONE of them? There were two police, one, I'm sure was covering the other, and would have shot him. That never happened. They executed that young man, in my opinion, and I am horrified.

Even so, I stand by my belief that DW shot MB in fear of his life, a MUCH different, up close, scenerio. A shooting in the commision of a felony (assault on an officer, then running away).

This case makes me wonder about the criteria for a riot and the motives for the race baiters moving in, along with the new black panthers sniffing around.

Quite honestly, Ferguson and their guests, however high they may "think" they are, makes me sick.

Let's not play games over dead bodies. I feel much more for the young man, trying to make HIS statement than I do for all those dancing, holding up hands, screaming in the streets.

Rant over, and it's just my opinion of how my country is going - to the dogs.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I just find it mind boggling how little people are completely unaware of what the definition of when lethal force is to be used. I was reading some of the comments on the youtube video you posted and actually chuckled a little bit. One person mentioned that if they were the cop, they would have run away. Really? LOL! You're the cop! It's your job NOT to run. It's your job to handle the situation at hand. I also laugh when I hear people say they should taze them. Using this case as an example - officers respond to an armed robbery (doesn't matter it was soda, this wasn't a shoplifting, it was an armed robbery.) Are they supposed to approach a knife wielding suspect with tazers or pepper spray? You don't take a knife to a gunfight and you don't bring tazers and pepper spray to a knife fight either.

Police MUST be able to be properly armed to have the upper hand, otherwise, the upper hand defaults to the suspect, who has already displayed their willingness to use force. To expect the officer, whose job it is to apprehend a suspect, to use less lethal force than the suspect is using, or to retreat, is just plain ignorance of the law and ignorance of police tactics. LE must get the benefit of the doubt in situations like these. As the chief said, it is reasonable for LE officer to go home at the end of his shift.

I agree. I personally find it frightening just how naive many people are.


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[Linda7NJ]

From what I saw and heard on the video (which captured it ALL), he stood there. He didn't rush them, he stood there, and they killed him.

BTW, did you ever see the "knife" he was holding? I didn't. How close would he have had to be to use it on ONE of them? There were two police, one, I'm sure was covering the other, and would have shot him. That never happened. They executed that young man, in my opinion, and I am horrified.

Even so, I stand by my belief that DW shot MB in fear of his life, a MUCH different, up close, scenerio. A shooting in the commision of a felony (assault on an officer, then running away).

This case makes me wonder about the criteria for a riot and the motives for the race baiters moving in, along with the new black panthers sniffing around.

Quite honestly, Ferguson and their guests, however high they may "think" they are, makes me sick.

Let's not play games over dead bodies. I feel much more for the young trying to make HIS statement than I do for all those dancing, holding up hands, screaming in the streets.

Rant over, and it's just my opinion of how my country is going - to the dogs.

So....you are not going to link the distance and the direction he was traveling in?




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[ATasteOfHoney]

I watched the video, it wasn't even close to what happened. That young man was too far away to present any danger. I'm sorry he died the way he did, as far as I'm concerned there was no cause, and from the audio on the video, no one else thought so either. I just wonder why no one cares about him - I do. Rest in peace young man - trying to make a statement, I believe. To me, every life is precious, and this one especially, because he spoke out in the only way he knew how. I totally respect that. May God take notice.

My opinion only

Suicide by cop. It happens.
Mental illness is a sad thing but it doesn't make this fella any less dangerous than a mentally sane man.

 

[Linda7NJ]

From what I saw and heard on the video (which captured it ALL), he stood there. He didn't rush them, he stood there, and they killed him.

BTW, did you ever see the "knife" he was holding? I didn't. How close would he have had to be to use it on ONE of them? There were two police, one, I'm sure was covering the other, and would have shot him. That never happened. They executed that young man, in my opinion, and I am horrified.

Even so, I stand by my belief that DW shot MB in fear of his life, a MUCH different, up close, scenerio. A shooting in the commision of a felony (assault on an officer, then running away).

This case makes me wonder about the criteria for a riot and the motives for the race baiters moving in, along with the new black panthers sniffing around.

Quite honestly, Ferguson and their guests, however high they may "think" they are, makes me sick.

Let's not play games over dead bodies. I feel much more for the young man, trying to make HIS statement than I do for all those dancing, holding up hands, screaming in the streets.

Rant over, and it's just my opinion of how my country is going - to the dogs.

http://youtu.be/j-P54MZVxMU

Maybe we didn't watch the same video.

Because this guy clearly was advancing....with a knife.

Warning language & graphic content




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[jmcgladr]

I mentioned previously that my town is an incorporated village with its own Police Dept. We also have a "Main Street" with local shops and businesses. It's a well known fact that our PD continuously stakes out the parking lots of these businesses looking to ticket any and every car they can. Expired registration, or inspection stickers, time limit violations, handicapped parking, parked the wrong way (most of our lots mandate parking heading in), train station lots require a permit, etc. the village also has a code against commercial traffic except for local delivers. Cops continually pull over trucks and often issue a number of tickets b/c many of these trucks are driving with faulty equipment. My point being, every month 100s upon 100s of residents get ticketed, and you know what? We learn our lesson, pay the ticket and get over it.

The only way that $2,500 number conceivably makes sense is b/c the fines aren't being paid. If you keep getting them, and don't pay them, the penalties are huge.


I find it extremely hard to believe that number is in any way accurate.

I am going to go out on a limb and assume that the residents/visitors of your village have more disposable income than the residents of Ferguson. It wouldn't be hard, there are few spots in the USA that are MORE poor than Ferguson. IIRC, 90% of the kids at Normandy H.S. are on free or reduced school lunches. If residents can't afford food for their kids, how are they supposed to be able to afford pricey traffic fines? And everybody just moving out isn't going to do anything positive either, unless you want to see a ghost town spring up in Ferguson. I don't agree with police forces trying to get a large part of their budget from quotas and fines. I just don't. In this situation, it amounts to a "poor tax."