MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #15

[Linda7NJ]

By "that day" you mean the day MB died? DJ said he did all the talking with OW. Did MB seem to speak during the store robbery, because I don't remember that he did? DJ initally tried to put words of surrender in MB's mouth, but I think he's backed off from that and now says MB was about to do/say this or that but the shots prevented it.

Supposedly. he stopped to chat with landscapers <modsnip>

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[Really?]

"Naw, this guy wouldn't hurt anybody." - yeah right. We saw the video of him shoving the shop owner into a food display.

Exactly...with this type of behavior, IMO, things would have escalated fast.

 

[SStarr33]

During the last week, there were two reports of Colorado motorists unintentionally shooting themselves while sitting in their cars. In both cases, they kept a round in the chamber. Deathly afraid that the boogeyman might pop up at any moment and only a quick draw would save their life.

If officer Wilson did the same, it increases the chance that that first shot was unintentional.

Were they police officers?

And what do unarmed people do if the "boogeyman" comes to their house and decides to rape their son or daughter?

 

[Muffet]

ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Aired September 3, 2014 - 20:00 ET
-snip -

COOPER: Jeff, in terms of what was said in the court, court officials said that Michael Brown was never convicted of a serious A level or B level felony as a juvenile. Even given that, it's possible he could have been charged with one and just never convicted of it or he could have made a plea deal for a lesser charge. I want to be clear what was actually said in the course. TOOBIN: I think what was said in court was said with considerable precision for just the reason you're suggesting. It is important to say he was not a felon. He has never been convicted of a felony. I think that's an important part of the public record in this case.

But what his relationship, if any, to the criminal justice system remains pretty mysterious at this point, whether he's ever been charged with a felony, whether he's plead guilty to a misdemeanor or anything else or even had a conviction in a family court setting, that is unknown at this point.

GERAGOS: You know, Anderson, the way that it was parsed today leads me to believe there is a mechanism in the juvenile courts even in that state where by even if you're charged, if you stay clean for six months or a year, depending on the jurisdiction, they will dismiss the charge.

They have it. It's kind of a juvenile diversion and it sure sounded to me based upon the language that we use in court that that's probably what transpired here.

There was no conviction because once you complete this informal or formal diversion. They had two methods that then the record basically, there is no conviction and you can literally say I've never been convicted of anything.

COOPER: Mark Geragos, Areva Martin, Jeff Toobin, appreciate the discussion. Thank you.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1409/03/acd.01.html

BBM

A little OT, but having personally experienced and seen here the number of outrageous plea-downs, I wish they'd record more specifics in people's records.

For example, I know someone who committed a class A felony assault on a mutual friend.

During the assault, the person committed other serious crimes that are charged and punished more harshly if they do it three times.

The DA didn't charge for the latter. There were no charges for the (albeit weak) assault on the arresting officers, nor for resisting arrest, nor for other crimes.

I have personal knowledge of this person's many previous crimes, like the above and filing false reports against people and police. BUT, because the previous offenses and charges were pled down or dropped for various reasons, the victim is having to fight to have the latest charges not be dropped to a (single) misdemeanor. The DA's first response is that this offender doesn't have a bad record.

So this violent person was let back out yet again, with a record that doesn't reflect the danger of it all.

All of this to ask, is this as common as I think? Will MB's juvenile record be like this person's? Will we likely see what original charges were before the plea?

Why is notation is given about pleaing down of charges sometimes, but not others?

I know lawyers are a big factor, and I think the biggest disparity in the justice system is money.
I'd like to see the country work on that as well as the other issues this case has brought to the headlines.

 

[DebinGA]

I'm curious where he came up with the "almost 2 years prior to his death thing. It sounds like he is referencing something specifically here that has a specific date on it. That would put MB at just over the age of 16, correct?

Well, something tumultuous was happening with MB around age 15-16, because that's when he changed schools twice ... after leaving McCluer HS and before finishing at Normandy. Any juvie record would end when he became 17 in May 2013.

 

[Footwarrior]

Where I live, if oxygen is necessary the fire department brings it. I would think the ambulance would have it, but they don't.

When someone calls 911 in my area, the fire department responds first. They call for an ambulance if transport is needed, or a helicopter for really critical cases. Law enforcement almost always comes to the scene to help with traffic and crowd control. The fire trucks and ambulances are all equipped with oxygen.

 

[Muffet]

I agree with you about the different groups, but those days are over in public schools. "Tracking" is illegal in American public schools. (ETA- but the European and Asian systems still use vocational and college bound tracking as their norms.) Every classroom has to have a balance of over achievers, average achievers, and under achievers, males and females, and the behavior problem kids are widely distributed to many different classrooms, whenever possible.

The fantasy is a bell shaped curve for every class, at least at the elementary and middle school level. No one is allowed to achieve too fast, and the focus is making sure the average and high performing kids will perform well enough on standardized tests to mask the effects of the behavior problems and underperformers on the whole educational process. And everyone singing ba yah about the wonderful benefits of diversity, while overall academic performance declines, behavior management dominates instructional time, and instructional rigor is dismantled. IMO, behavior management problems are the single biggest obstacle to improving public education and student achievement today.

I will say one thing more, and then get back on topic. It's a complete fantasy to think that any social institution, like public education, can "fix" the problems that produce underachievement in 6-7 hours a day. It's a complete fantasy, IMO, to also think that busing kids from failing neighborhoods and failing schools will fix the root problems, either.

We simply can't "fix" the dire social problems where most the underachieving kids come from, and they go back to at the end of every school day. We can throw all the money at underperforming schools we want, but "we" can't fix the social circumstances that lead to student failure and underachievement, on a wide scale, IMO. Individual families and kids can personally work on closing the achievement gap, but society cannot fix the root problems-- poverty, crime, substance abuse, lack of parental education, lack of ambition, children who are not being parented effectively, or parented at all, etc. It's ridiculous to expect any school can fix all that in 6-7 hours a day, or even more ridiculous, for people to think that none of that should affect student performance.

:thumbup: ITA

It all starts at home, and our attempt to make up for that in the schools has done more harm than good.

I don't think legalizing tracking will solve those problems either. I just think the lack of it exacerbates the problem for kids from all backgrounds.

Thanks for the post! I'll leave it at that before we stray too far from the threads topic. <modsnip>

 

[DebinGA]

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024414061_spdcomplaintxml.html

The Seattle Police Department has changed their use of force criteria after Holder-DOJ intervened there, as they're about to do in Ferguson. I guess only time will tell if more officers are killed/injured than before.

Demographics: http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/cityplan...aphics/aboutseattle/raceethnicity/default.htm

 

[reedus23]

A little OT, but having personally experienced and seen here the number of outrageous plea-downs, I wish they'd record more specifics in people's records.

For example, I know someone who committed a class A felony assault on a mutual friend.

During the assault, the person committed other serious crimes that are charged and punished more harshly if they do it three times.

The DA didn't charge for the latter. There were no charges for the (albeit weak) assault on the arresting officers, nor for resisting arrest, nor for other crimes.

I have personal knowledge of this person's many previous crimes, like the above and filing false reports against people and police. BUT, because the previous offenses and charges were pled down or dropped for various reasons, the victim is having to fight to have the latest charges not be dropped to a (single) misdemeanor. The DA's first response is that this offender doesn't have a bad record.

So this violent person was let back out yet again, with a record that doesn't reflect the danger of it all.

All of this to ask, is this as common as I think? Will MB's juvenile record be like this person's? Will we likely see what original charges were before the plea?

Why is notation is given about pleaing down of charges sometimes, but not others?

I know lawyers are a big factor, and I think the biggest disparity in the justice system is money.
I'd like to see the country work on that as well as the other issues this case has brought to the headlines.

I'm pretty sure LE knows. At least my friend in McCulloch's office knows what previous arrests were for and what original charges were and what they were amended down to. I would have to ask him if that is true if the charges arose in a different venue though.

As for MB, I'm really not sure at this point why people are still hung up on it. There's nothing serious there. I'm sure there's something there. Hell, half the kids that went to school with my kids have something there and we're in a middle class predominantly white neighborhood. Skipping school, smoking weed, drinking, while I don't condone any of it, is hardly relevant to anything here.

 

[Muffet]

IMO as they should. We all saw some pretty disturbing things and several officers have been fired as the bright lights fell on Ferguston

I think it's a good smart move in the right direction.


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I agree, although IIRC, those officers weren't from Ferguson?

(since I posted about Ferguson's chief of police last night, I want to clarify that I have no attachment to Ferguson or anyone in the PD there. I'm just always touchy about any race, individual, or department getting muddied by the actions of others.)

 

[popsicle]

The Justice Department says the St. Louis County Police Department will be included in an investigation into Michael Brown&#8217;s death in Fergeson. US Attorney General Eric Holder said Chief Belmar has voluntarily asked to be included in the review during a press conference Thursday in Washington DC.

http://fox2now.com/2014/09/04/st-lo...-to-address-justice-department-investigation/

 

[popsicle]

Michael Calhoun &#8207;@michaelcalhoun 3m
JUST IN: #STL Co Exec Dooley apologizes for #Ferguson in heartfelt speech today. Hear it only on @KMOX. 4:03 news. http://KMOX.com/listen

 

[Linda7NJ]

Michael Calhoun &#8207;@michaelcalhoun 3m
JUST IN: #STL Co Exec Dooley apologizes for #Ferguson in heartfelt speech today. Hear it only on @KMOX. 4:03 news. http://KMOX.com/listen

I can't hear?
What he's saying?


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[i.b.nora]

what's your point? Do you believe this testimony?

My post was in response to DebinGA's now Post #548 where she said:

"The recent WaPo article on DJ and MB's friendship contained an anecdote I found very revealing. A friend of DJ's came to his home and introduced MB to him. MB "brushed past" DJ without a word and went straight for the video console, and presumably began playing without any interaction with the other two guys. Finally, DJ asked his friend, "Why he don't talk?" I think the answer to that question would help us understand the "failure to communicate" between DW and MB that day."​

I simply supplied the exact answer to 'that question' as it appeared in the article DebinGA was referencing. My post had nothing to do with anyone's 'testimony'.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I agree, although IIRC, those officers weren't from Ferguson?

(since I posted about Ferguson's chief of police last night, I want to clarify that I have no attachment to Ferguson or anyone in the PD there. I'm just always touchy about any race, individual, or department getting muddied by the actions of others.)

Honestly, I don't know.
But because they reeked of exactly what no one wants...they stunk up everyone.


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[Muffet]

I almost always agree with you but not this time. Sure, there have been some really bad things done by a few LE there. They are gone now and rightfully so. There is nothing a good LE officer hates more than a bad LE officer because a bad one is a bad reflection of them all.

IMO, this investigation will do nothing but almost tie LE's hands in their regular duties. I am speaking of the good officers.

MOO

I hear you, LaLaw.

I'm for assuring the public that there will be an investigation. I'm far from confident in the process of that investigation.

If it stops the burning and calls for Officer Wilson's head, I'm begrudgingly OK with its being under Holder, only because he is so biased in their favor, they can't continue rioting in the name of cover up.

But I deeply resent that the threats of rioting etc are there, and I'm not proud that I in any way feel like pacifying them.

I guess I have a hope that, if the rioters and instigators can be quelled, fewer will be harmed, and some reason may prevail. Pollyanna, I know. It's more likely that we just lose more good cops and the bad guys win.

To support your comments and concerns, I'm thinking of a story I saw not long ago, citing the increase in crime in NY, IIRC, after this sort of investigation and weakening of the police there. You are more likely to be familiar with that and others like it. I don't know how far off topic this will be considered, or I'd pursue it further.

Thank you and your husband for all you have done, and most of all, for being one of the good guys in this country. :heart:

 

[sorrell skye]

I agree with you about the different groups, but those days are over in public schools. "Tracking" is illegal in American public schools. (ETA- but the European and Asian systems still use vocational and college bound tracking as their norms.) Every classroom has to have a balance of over achievers, average achievers, and under achievers, males and females, and the behavior problem kids are widely distributed to many different classrooms, whenever possible.

The fantasy is a bell shaped curve for every class, at least at the elementary and middle school level. No one is allowed to achieve too fast, and the focus is making sure the average and high performing kids will perform well enough on standardized tests to mask the effects of the behavior problems and underperformers on the whole educational process. And everyone singing ba yah about the wonderful benefits of diversity, while overall academic performance declines, behavior management dominates instructional time, and instructional rigor is dismantled. IMO, behavior management problems are the single biggest obstacle to improving public education and student achievement today.

I will say one thing more, and then get back on topic. It's a complete fantasy to think that any social institution, like public education, can "fix" the problems that produce underachievement in 6-7 hours a day. It's a complete fantasy, IMO, to also think that busing kids from failing neighborhoods and failing schools will fix the root problems, either.

We simply can't "fix" the dire social problems where most the underachieving kids come from, and they go back to at the end of every school day. We can throw all the money at underperforming schools we want, but "we" can't fix the social circumstances that lead to student failure and underachievement, on a wide scale, IMO. Individual families and kids can personally work on closing the achievement gap, but society cannot fix the root problems-- poverty, crime, substance abuse, lack of parental education, lack of ambition, children who are not being parented effectively, or parented at all, etc. It's ridiculous to expect any school can fix all that in 6-7 hours a day, or even more ridiculous, for people to think that none of that should affect student performance. <stepping down off soapbox>

All students, regardless of the above bolded bit, are entitled to an equal educational opportunity.

The problems may seem insurmountable, but I don't believe that kids should be thrown away because of their socioeconomic status, or because of lack of parental education or involvement, or because of crime, substance abuse, alleged lack of ambition, or behavioral management problems, etc.

Personally, I think all kids want to grow up to be successful adults (whatever their individual ideas of success might be).

An equal educational opportunity is one of the most fundamental rights of kids in this country. Unfortunately, in many impoverished areas that ideal is paid cheap lip service and nothing more.

 

[DebinGA]

I liked the old system where there was tracking, but parents were the ones who decided which track fit their child best.

 

[DebinGA]

I can't hear? What he's saying?

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Fox2/StL: "Thursday at the St Louis County Economic Council Luncheon, Charlie Dooley went &#8220;off script&#8221; and made remarks about Ferguson. He said, &#8220;It happened on my watch,&#8221; Dooley says. &#8220;Don&#8217;t blame yourself. Blame Charlie A. Dooley.&#8221;

Charlie A. Dooley lost his reelection bid for StL County Exec Officer on Aug. 6. I think a lot of voters were disenchanted with Dooley long before "Ferguson".

 

[branwynbreeze]

RE: When things go badly for LE. I was a 3 1/2 miles away from this:

Hundreds outgunned by just two suspects, with responding officers even borrowed rifles from a nearby gun shop.

The legacy, felt in today's militarized local police, from Los Angeles to Ferguson, MO.

http://www.live5news.com/story/26311353/1997-ca-bank-robbery-led-to-police-militarization