MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #16

[Klood-N]

Thanks for the welcome. Love the work you guys have put into this so far.

 

[tlcya]

Sorrell in answer to your question IM very humble opinion, I do not find him unfit and have had no problems with how he has performed his duties prior to arriving in Ferguson. I took issue with his statement about being a black man because

a) it was obvious and by stating it it felt like pandering to the looters and rioters (to me) and

b) I felt that did not help calm the strife but rather upped the ante as the implication left some feeling as if he had already come to conclusions when the only thing he had at that time he made those statements was allegations and his shared skin tone with those I consider to be criminals (not peaceful protesters who have a right to express their concerns and be heard but thugs who travelled to Ferguson to loot and burn without consequence) and who took those statements to mean, its okay, I am here now and I will prosecute this cop and I totally get why you are being criminals right now, not your fault, you are rightfully angry.

That is just my take on his choice of statements upon first arriving on the scene.

I think he could have made his points without so blatantly (again Just IMO) seeming to agree with those calling for ODW's head when he and his team had yet to even begin their investigation into possible civil rights violations let alone whether MB's specific shooting incident was in any way racially motivated.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Who better to oversee the DOJ's Civil Rights Division than a member of an ethnic minority who has overcome adversity and has achieved success?

SBM

I think that a white person could do as good of job if their qualified and have the desire to do it. I don't think that the color of a persons skin would automatically make them better or worse at doing any job, including overseeing the Civil Rights Division at the DOJ.

JMO.

 

[TheDuchess]

It is ridiculous that race has been allowed to be such a driving force in this case.

It's funny. About a week ago I posted a challenge for any person on here to provide one shred of any proof that race has anything to do with this case. I am not talking anecdotal evidence that racism exists, or even that perhaps racism exists on the FPD. I am talking of ONE SHRED of proof that OW is a racist. I don't care if he shot MB dead for no reason. I don't care if OW turns out to be the devil himself and MB was a perfect angel.

One shred of evidence that race had anything to do with this shooting. One.

Crickets.....:waiting:

 

[tlcya]

Gonna find something to do for a bit, maybe nap, meds are kickin my butt hard and I think that Holder and his statement horse is dead at this point.

Those of us who felt strongly one way or another about his statements have said our piece and so I don't want to belabour it any further.

As always I appreciate the respectful discourse and agree with Sorrell, without calm rational discussion of these topics we will never know true peace. Feeling very appreciative that WS is a place where that respectful exchange of thoughts and ideas can flourish.

 

[bwt42]

I am curious what everyone's thoughts are on the following comment.

"Do you know why we profile? Because it works."

Wow. Wherever you were the last few days you sure came back rested & fired up.

 

[katydid23]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/o...mo-police-practices-is-just-a-start.html?_r=0

I hope we do get a thread for the Ferguson investigations. I have a few thoughts about this article. It sounds like LE is going to be forced to 'ignore' drivers who are unlicensed, unregistered and uninsured. jmo

 

[katydid23]

The allegation was that AG Holder's reference to himself as a black man was a racist comment. I think that's an extremely serious allegation to make.

Please explain how his comment in the below-linked transcript was a racist comment.

http://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/ag/speeches/2014/ag-speech-140820.html


Excerpts of Attorney General Eric Holder’s Remarks at a Community College

Florissant Valley Community College ~ Wednesday, August 20, 2014

“The eyes of the nation and the world are watching Ferguson right now. The world is watching because the issues raised by the shooting of Michael Brown predate this incident. This is something that has a history to it and the history simmers beneath the surface in more communities than just Ferguson.

“We have seen a great deal of progress over the years. But we also see problems and these problems stem from mistrust and mutual suspicion.

“I just had the opportunity to sit down with some wonderful young people and to hear them talk about the mistrust they have at a young age. These are young people and already they are concerned about potential interactions they might have with the police.

“I understand that mistrust. I am the Attorney General of the United States. But I am also a black man. I can remember being stopped on the New Jersey turnpike on two occasions and accused of speeding. Pulled over…“Let me search your car”…Go through the trunk of my car, look under the seats and all this kind of stuff. I remember how humiliating that was and how angry I was and the impact it had on me.

“I think about my time in Georgetown – a nice neighborhood of Washington – and I am running to a picture movie at about 8 o’clock at night. I am running with my cousin. Police car comes driving up, flashes his lights, yells “Where you going? Hold it!” I say “Woah, I’m going to a movie.” Now my cousin started mouthing off. I’m like, “This is not where we want to go. Keep quiet.” I’m angry and upset. We negotiate the whole thing and we walk to our movie. At the time that he stopped me, I was a federal prosecutor. I wasn’t a kid. I was a federal prosecutor. I worked at the United States Department of Justice. So I’ve confronted this myself.”

“We are starting here a good dialogue. But the reality is the dialogue is not enough. We need concrete action to change things in this country. That’s what I have been trying to do. That’s what the President has been trying to do. We have a very active Civil Rights Division. I am proud of what these men and women have done. As they write about the legacy of the Obama administration, a lot of it is going to be about what the Civil Rights Division has done.

“So this interaction must occur. This dialogue is important. But it can’t simply be that we have a conversation that begins based on what happens on August 9, and ends sometime in December, and nothing happens. As I was just telling these young people, change is possible. The same kid who got stopped on the New Jersey freeway is now the Attorney General of the United States. This country is capable of change. But change doesn’t happen by itself.

“So let’s start here. Let’s do the work today.”

He is supposed to be representing JUSTICE FOR EVERYONE. But when he rolls into Ferguson, announces he is a black man , and he has been unfairly treated by cops before, what does that say to the Ferguson Police? He is heading up a federal investigation of their force. And he begins by criticizing white policeman and how he has been treated as a black man? He does not sound very unbiased or impartial, imo.

 

[sorrell skye]

SBM

I think that a white person could do as good of job if their qualified and have the desire to do it. I don't think that the color of a persons skin would automatically make them better or worse at doing any job, including overseeing the Civil Rights Division at the DOJ.

JMO.

BBM

In theory, they could.

I watched a documentary recently (Tent City, U.S.A.) about the homeless population in Nashville, TN. Until someone from the homeless population was elected to serve on the Homelessness Commission, all the decisions were made by a group of folks who had no idea about what it meant to be homeless, nor did the members of the commission have any idea about the real needs of Nashville's homeless. Before anyone dismisses Nashville's homeless population as nothing more than junkies, alcoholics, lazy ne'er-do-wells - some of them were homeless due to the economic crisis that put many folks out of work.

In this particular case: A black US Attorney General is being called biased (or accused outright of being a racist by others) because he pointed out that he's black when he was meeting with the community to discuss possible racial discrimination & racial profiling issues.

IMO, a person who has first-hand knowledge & experience regarding these issues brings more to the table than someone who has only read about them in a college humanities course.

Rather than accuse AG Holder of being biased or a racist (without any corroborating evidence to substantiate such a serious claim) I choose to believe that he was speaking from his heart and trying to let the folks of Ferguson know that he's aware of the issues of discrimination and racial profiling - and that they'll get more than cheap lip service in his investigation.

 

[Apollo]

BBM

In theory, they could.

I watched a documentary recently (Tent City, U.S.A.) about the homeless population in Nashville, TN. Until someone from the homeless population was elected to serve on the Homelessness Commission, all the decisions were made by a group of folks who had no idea about what it meant to be homeless, nor did the members of the commission have any idea about the real needs of Nashville's homeless. Before anyone dismisses Nashville's homeless population as nothing more than junkies, alcoholics, lazy ne'er-do-wells - some of them were homeless due to the economic crisis that put many folks out of work.

In this particular case: A black US Attorney General is being called biased (or accused outright of being a racist by others) because he pointed out that he's black when he was meeting with the community to discuss possible racial discrimination & racial profiling issues.

IMO, a person who has first-hand knowledge & experience regarding these issues brings more to the table than someone who has only read about them in a college humanities course.

Rather than accuse AG Holder of being biased or a racist (without any corroborating evidence to substantiate such a serious claim) I choose to believe that he was speaking from his heart and trying to let the folks of Ferguson know that he's aware of the issues of discrimination and racial profiling - and that they'll get more than cheap lip service in his investigation.

So then, do you think that if the GJ comes back with no true bill, the MB supporters in Ferguson will accept that decision and feel that it must be correct because Holder has assured them he will do/ has done his best? Or do you think they will feel that Holder didn't do enough (and proceed to burn down the town).

 

[katydid23]

BBM

In theory, they could.

I watched a documentary recently (Tent City, U.S.A.) about the homeless population in Nashville, TN. Until someone from the homeless population was elected to serve on the Homelessness Commission, all the decisions were made by a group of folks who had no idea about what it meant to be homeless, nor did the members of the commission have any idea about the real needs of Nashville's homeless. Before anyone dismisses Nashville's homeless population as nothing more than junkies, alcoholics, lazy ne'er-do-wells - some of them were homeless due to the economic crisis that put many folks out of work.

In this particular case: A black US Attorney General is being called biased (or accused outright of being a racist by others) because he pointed out that he's black when he was meeting with the community to discuss possible racial discrimination & racial profiling issues.

IMO, a person who has first-hand knowledge & experience regarding these issues brings more to the table than someone who has only read about them in a college humanities course.

Rather than accuse AG Holder of being biased or a racist (without any corroborating evidence to substantiate such a serious claim) I choose to believe that he was speaking from his heart and trying to let the folks of Ferguson know that he's aware of the issues of discrimination and racial profiling - and that they'll get more than cheap lip service in his investigation.

That is a lovely way to look at it. But what about the Law Enforcement officers? The ones who put their very lives on the line, for very chitty pay? Is it fair for them to hear that the man who is leading the investigation of their force, is AUTOMATICALLY assuming that they are mistreating the public?

People do LIE when they describe their interactions with the police, right? So how do the law abiding, well meaning cops feel now, knowing that Holder already has taken sides in the matter. he has publicly described being treated unfairly as a black man, as incentive for his visit there.

So what does that mean for the officers? Are people going to be able to come forward now and make up stories as revenge? Seems like that happened already with the arrest OW made and was given a medal for. Now the guy is claiming mistreatment. Not a peep before.

 

[LambChop]

Enough about the Attorney General. He has promised justice and that is his job. From this time forward discuss what has been reported because if your opinion is a political one it will be deleted.

You are all lucky the thread is still up because if I were had been on today I would have shut it down to do a major cleanup. As it is, it looks like the remains of the "Running of the Brides" Basement Sale at Filene's in Boston.

:maddening:

 

[Footwarrior]

I hope we do get a thread for the Ferguson investigations. I have a few thoughts about this article. It sounds like LE is going to be forced to 'ignore' drivers who are unlicensed, unregistered and uninsured. jmo

The Civil Rights Division has done these investigations before. They look for law enforcement patterns or practices that systematically violate people's civil rights.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/police.php

Reading the findings and recommendations from prior cases should give you an idea of what FPD may be asked to do.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/findsettle.php#police

 

[katydid23]

The Civil Rights Division has done these investigations before. They look for law enforcement patterns or practices that systematically violate people's civil rights.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/police.php

Reading the findings and recommendations from prior cases should give you an idea of what FPD may be asked to do.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/findsettle.php#police

It sounds like the protestors are expecting something different than this. ^^^^ Earlier articles, linked upthread, discuss locals who complain about not being able to afford to register their cars, or have proof of insurance. And they say it is unfair to be pulled over and asked for that paperwork and to be fined for not having it. What is the answer for that problem?

 

[sorrell skye]

The Civil Rights Division has done these investigations before. They look for law enforcement patterns or practices that systematically violate people's civil rights.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/police.php

Reading the findings and recommendations from prior cases should give you an idea of what FPD may be asked to do.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/findsettle.php#police

Thank you for the links, Footwarrior.

From the first link:

The problems addressed in our cases include use of excessive force; unlawful stops, searches, or arrests; and discriminatory policing. We have looked at bias based on race, ethnicity, national origin, gender, and sexual-orientation. We have also addressed unlawful responses to individuals who observe, record, or object to police actions.

Results of Our Work

Our settlements and court orders frequently require:
•increased transparency and data collection
•community-police partnerships
•steps to prevent discriminatory policing
•independent oversight
•improved investigation and review of uses of force
•more effective training and supervision of officers

The reforms we obtain create models for effective and constitutional policing nationwide. They provide significant, systemic relief, increase community confidence in law enforcement, and improve officer and agency accountability.

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/police.php

As far as I'm concerned, this is a good thing.

 

[bwt42]

I joined WS about 2 years ago & have closely followed around 10 cases. The Feds initiated a review & investigation in three. Alfred Wright, Kendrick Johnson & Michael Brown.

 

[Klood-N]

Well, it's good news that neither Michael nor his mom experienced systematic civil rights violations by Ferguson PD per her statements and that apparently Chief Belmar of StL County PD proactively requested the DOJ to review their practices. I think he released a press release about that, but it seems like their website might still be experiencing problems? ETA: Sorry if this falls out of sequence. I got kicked off while posting!

Which reminds me; I saw the discussion about the FOI/Sunshine and the video and pulled this together while waiting for my account to be approved. I didn't see this press release posted here.

Ferguson City Attorney Stephanie Karr makes Statement on FOI Requests

Ferguson, Missouri – September 5th, 2014 - Within days of the tragic events on August 9, the City of Ferguson began receiving multiple requests for information and documents. While some of these requests were made in writing, many requests were made verbally due to the fact that the City’s website and email were down at several points during that week. City personnel cataloged all requests and treated them in the same manner as it would any Sunshine Law request. (The “Sunshine Law” is Missouri’s equivalent of the federal Freedom of Information Act).
Several reporters, news organizations and others asked for documents specifically pertaining to Michael Brown. One such request was made by the St. Louis Post Dispatch. On August 12, 2014, the paper requested “all documentation concerning the events leading up to and including the shooting of Michael Brown” which shall include “incident, arrest and investigative reports, 911 audio, photos and video retained by the police department.” Another request, made on August 14, 2014, by Judicial Watch requested all records relating to Michael Brown and dated between August 1, 2013, and August 9, 2014.
The Sunshine Law dictates that Governmental entities must respond to both general requests and specific requests and release all documents that are responsive to the those requests, unless those documents are otherwise closed.
The Ferguson police department retained the incident and investigative report of the store robbery which occurred less than 10 minutes before the shooting. The reports, which included the surveillance video, concerned Michael Brown. Under the Sunshine Law, the police department had no reason to close these records and withhold them from the public.
By the date of August 15, the City having reached its statutory deadline to respond to the information requests, released the store robbery reports, including the surveillance video.
###
For Media Contact, please call: 314-873-7975
http://www.devinjamesgroup.com/ferg...ephanie-karr-makes-statement-on-foi-requests/


That team member, who declined to be identified but said he was out of the country, said the core Ferguson operation is run by about a half-dozen Anonymous operatives, invited by St. Louis activists, with thousands of “Anons” from about 75 different countries “joining in to help.”
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_d81a1da4-ae04-5261-9064-e4c255111c94.html

“Anonymous,” a group of “Hacktivists,” hacked the City of Ferguson’s website Sunday night.

According to officials, none of the city’s e-mails were working Monday morning.
http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...er-attacks-against-Ferguson-PD-270706191.html

Online hacker group Anonymous is taking credit for temporarily taking down the city of Ferguson’s website.

On Sunday, the group spoke out about the case, making a threat to harm local police data bases if they mishandle the protests.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/08/12/city-of-fergusons-website-taken-down-anonymous-takes-credit/

They caused the city’s web servers to crash, forcing officials to communicate by text.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/15/us/ferguson-case-roils-collective-called-anonymous.html?_r=0

The Internet crashed at City Hall here on Tuesday morning. Ferguson’s website went dark. The phones died.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_d81a1da4-ae04-5261-9064-e4c255111c94.html


I hadn't seen this story. How terrible!

http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/anonymous-got-wrong-ferguson

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ec6ffe-339b-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html

Grand jury getting all the available Ferguson case info.

"McCulloch declined to step aside, but he is not presenting evidence to the grand jury, which usually means he won’t try the case himself, Magee said. But he is supervising the two attorneys in his office — Sheila Whirley and Kathi Alizadeh — who are presenting to the grand jury. Whirley has been with the office since 2001 and is the highest-ranking African American among the five black attorneys in the 57-member office. Alizadeh has been with the office since 1988 and is supervising the sex crimes unit. She is white. Alizadeh is also presenting evidence to the grand jury and will prosecute the case if they decide to indict Wilson."

 

[Lovejac]

Enough about the Attorney General. He has promised justice and that is his job. From this time forward discuss what has been reported because if your opinion is a political one it will be deleted.

You are all lucky the thread is still up because if I were had been on today I would have shut it down to do a major cleanup. As it is, it looks like the remains of the "Running of the Brides" Basement Sale at Filene's in Boston.

:maddening:

Oh crud! Sorry LambChop. I wasn't reading backwards. I will edit my posts. Sorry :loveyou:

 

[Klood-N]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ec6ffe-339b-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html

Grand jury getting all the available Ferguson case info.

"McCulloch declined to step aside, but he is not presenting evidence to the grand jury, which usually means he won’t try the case himself, Magee said. But he is supervising the two attorneys in his office — Sheila Whirley and Kathi Alizadeh — who are presenting to the grand jury. Whirley has been with the office since 2001 and is the highest-ranking African American among the five black attorneys in the 57-member office. Alizadeh has been with the office since 1988 and is supervising the sex crimes unit. She is white. Alizadeh is also presenting evidence to the grand jury and will prosecute the case if they decide to indict Wilson."

And he took it to the GJ even prior to the investigations finishing up and is feeding them real-time info as it's developed. Sure seems unbiased, swift, and comprehensive. The whole truth is what's important. Thanks for posting this.