MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #17

[DebinGA]

If you hate the mayor, vote in a new one. It saddens me that the people of Ferguson are not aware of how elected officials become ELECTED OFFICIALS.

I wonder if the number of renters in Ferguson is relatively high. Just guessing, that renters might feel less interested in local elections, especially when iirc all MO elections don't occur on the same day in Nov. as they do where I live.

 

[Phoebeb]

OT, but do we have the original Piaget C videos taken from her balcony- (maybe there 2?) where she is cursing? I remember they were on her Facebook page but then that page or those posts were deleted. I'm hoping someone was able to download those before they went poof

 

[reedus23]

Honest question here.... Are you actually truly 100% undecided whether MB was advancing toward OW? Truly undecided whether the shooting was justified? You could just as easily come down on one side as the other? You don't, at this point, have any opinion about how it played out?

I honestly don't know how I could form a position without hearing OW's version, without the forensics or crime scene analysis and without reading the full witness statements to investigators. While I'm selfishly glad to read witness statements in the media so I have something to ponder or discuss, I also recognize that those statements are only small snippets, sometimes taken out of context and most of the time with no follow up questions to flush them out.

If a gun were put to my head to give an opinion based on what we currently know, I think there's enough for a GJ to indict because the standard is so much lower, but I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep if they failed to indict. But then again, I don't know that that is fair to OW though because most of the information that is available to the public is from the Brown point of view.

Again with gun to head to give an opinion based on what we currently know, I don't think OW is ever convicted. The standard is higher at trial and I don't think the picture is nearly clear enough based on what we currently know to sustain a conviction.

Again with gun to head, was OW justified in shooting MB in reality? I don't know and probably never will. As you said, we will probably never know exactly what happened out there that day.

Now ask me if there are problems in a broader sense outside of this specific case and I do fall on a side.

Again, everything subject to change as more evidence comes to light and all just my opinion.

 

[sonjay]

Most witnesses say he was advancing. The "new" ones add Wilson was retreating while firing. As K_Z so aptly pointed out, those two elements were not happening in a vacuum. Per my previous post regarding Wilson and corroborating witnesses, the officer did hear the BOLO before getting attacked by Michael, then Michael knocks him back into the SUV, pummeling him, struggling for the gun, does not stop his attack despite two warnings the officer will shoot, only stops once the officer fires, and then advances on the officer again, ignoring an order to freeze just like he ignored the lawful order to get off the street. Nothing about this looks unjustified to me.

ITA.

Additionally, the proximity of MB to OW at the end is important. Josie said MB fell 2 or 3 feet in front of the officer. Walker said the final shot was from a distance of about 4 feet. McKnight said the officer was about 6 or 7 feet away from Brown. Those estimates are all fairly close together, and IMO are more likely to be accurate than the estimates of greater distances. I know that I myself can estimate 3 feet or 5 feet much more accurately than I can estimate 35 or 50 feet.

IMO, MB advanced to a position where he was very dangerously close to OW before OW finally stopped him with those final two shots.

One of the construction workers said he saw MB running with the officer about 10 to 15 feet behind, then MB turned and moved/walked/stumbled about 25 feet toward the officer. If someone is 10 or 15 feet behind you, and you turn and move toward them about 25 feet, then it's clear that they're backing up, because otherwise you would have passed the other person. So if that part is true and accurate, then that's additional supporting evidence that OW was backing up while MB was advancing on him.

 

[Oceans]

Thank you for posting and the instructions. I'll have to save those! I'm not on Twitter either, just dig around.

My pleasure.

You are doing an excellent job with providing sooo much valuable info to WS. Very organized! Great job.

So a big Thank You! :tyou:

 

[Klood-N]

Wow, Clar, very thought out post. Thank you. Regarding aiming, reports state Wilson was dazed (concussion?) and injured, head and neck (in one report), face swollen, and he likely had an orbital blowout fracture.

I think the reports are shot 6 times, but that's a minor variance.

Regarding the audio, if it's of this incident, and if it hasn't been tampered with, there are numerous possibilities for the pause, IMO.

- Gun jams, he quickly clears it and starts firing again (I've heard Glock are common in LE, and it's not uncommon for them to jam.)

- A bystander or vehicle emerges behind Michael briefly. Wilson holds his fire until out of the line of fire.

- He fires, pauses while giving chase, starts firing again.

- He fires, pauses as Michael turns and speaks assessing (hoping) Michael is going to obey his lawful order, begins firing again and retreating as Michael advances. To me, this rings true.


I found it interesting though that the family's supporters thought the audio could only mean one thing. Bias can be blinding.

 

[Klood-N]

OT, but do we have the original Piaget C videos taken from her balcony- (maybe there 2?) where she is cursing? I remember they were on her Facebook page but then that page or those posts were deleted. I'm hoping someone was able to download those before they went poof

Hm. I thought they were on YouTube somewhere, but IDK.

 

[Klood-N]

ITA.

Additionally, the proximity of MB to OW at the end is important. Josie said MB fell 2 or 3 feet in front of the officer. Walker said the final shot was from a distance of about 4 feet. McKnight said the officer was about 6 or 7 feet away from Brown. Those estimates are all fairly close together, and IMO are more likely to be accurate than the estimates of greater distances. I know that I myself can estimate 3 feet or 5 feet much more accurately than I can estimate 35 or 50 feet.

IMO, MB advanced to a position where he was very dangerously close to OW before OW finally stopped him with those final two shots.

One of the construction workers said he saw MB running with the officer about 10 to 15 feet behind, then MB turned and moved/walked/stumbled about 25 feet toward the officer. If someone is 10 or 15 feet behind you, and you turn and move toward them about 25 feet, then it's clear that they're backing up, because otherwise you would have passed the other person. So if that part is true and accurate, then that's additional supporting evidence that OW was backing up while MB was advancing on him.

You are on a roll today! Math! Data, digging into the facts. Boy, we need an analysis show where we could present all of this and put our media to shame. And I bet the investigation and grand jury are considering all these facts and angles too.

 

[Phoebeb]

Hm. I thought they were on YouTube somewhere, but IDK.

I can't find it anywhere- I think it was the first video she taped with some "f the police" comments.

 

[popsicle]

My pleasure.

You are doing an excellent job with providing sooo much valuable info to WS. Very organized! Great job.

So a big Thank You! :tyou:

I just want to add in my thanks to Klood-N for all the hard work as well. :loveyou:

 

[Peliman]

BOYCOTT THE BUSINESS NOT AA OWNED #Ferguson

Yeah lets boycott Walmart, McDonald's, food stores and gas stations while we're at. Does this include electric bills too?

 

[TheDuchess]

BOYCOTT THE BUSINESS NOT AA OWNED #Ferguson

Yep...that's not racist at all...:gaah:

 

[Klood-N]

I just want to add in my thanks to Klood-N for all the hard work as well. :loveyou:

Thanks to both of you. Popsicle, we might not know the truth of what's been happening without the hours and days of tweets, videos, and links you've provided. Oceans I've seen many observant posts you've made. Good team here.

 

[katydid23]

https://twitter.com/frenchiiewendia/status/510084439917858816

No idea how to post this image/flyer?? here, but it looks like now they're planning to boycott Ferguson businesses until Mayor Knowles and Chief Jackson resign. Sure injuring your local economy is bound to help, although if these are the same people who think it's ok to strong arm and threaten, the businesses may be A-ok with them staying away.

OK, so this looks like much more than a simple 'boycott.' To boycott means that you don't buy the products or use the services. However, the flyer instructs all of these productive members of society to meet up EVERY DAY @ 9 am at police station, to then 'disperse' among local businesses to shut them down. How is that supposed to work?

And WHY the heck do they want the local businesses to be shut down? What did the owner of the beauty supply or the diner do to deserve being picketed and boycotted every day? This is THEIR TOWN. Why do they want to destroy it?

 

[Klood-N]

Yep...that's not racist at all...:gaah:

Well, when your fearless leader is a racist, cop assaulting felon agitator. Running out "others' businesses" seems to be his thing.

He walks the streets of these neighborhoods and sees liquor stores on every corner, owned by people of other races. He looks for the African-American-owned businesses...

Walked the grid of the city's African-American neighborhoods, calling on business owners who weren't African-American with suggestions -- some say ultimatums -- that left them silent and subdued. Marched publicly on the Arab-owned liquor stores around Cass Avenue, trying to push them and their products out of the African-American community.
http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2003-02-19/news/who-s-afraid-of-anthony-shahid/full/

 

[sonjay]

Thanks to both of you. Popsicle, we might not know the truth of what's been happening without the hours and days of tweets, videos, and links you've provided. Oceans I've seen many observant posts you've made. Good team here.

Allow me to add my thanks to Klood, popsicle, Oceans, Duchess, and everyone else who has been posting hard facts and data and logical deductions. Individually, we can each only get a tiny bit of the picture, but by combining and sharing what we've learned, we get a much bigger and clearer picture. Reedus, you help keep us focused on what little hard evidence we have, even when we disagree about what it mean.

 

[reedus23]

OK, so this looks like much more than a simple 'boycott.' To boycott means that you don't buy the products or use the services. However, the flyer instructs all of these productive members of society to meet up EVERY DAY @ 9 am at police station, to then 'disperse' among local businesses to shut them down. How is that supposed to work?

And WHY the heck do they want the local businesses to be shut down? What did the owner of the beauty supply or the diner do to deserve being picketed and boycotted every day? This is THEIR TOWN. Why do they want to destroy it?

Yepp. That's illogical. It would seem to make more sense to form a human chain at the entrances to parking lots for say city hall, or the police department or something like that. This makes no sense to me.

 

[oh_gal]

I love an honest man/woman/answer. Too bad this case hasn't brought enough of them, IMO

OMGosh...you beat me to it. Such games.

 

[Clar]

Wow, Clar, very thought out post. Thank you. Regarding aiming, reports state Wilson was dazed (concussion?) and injured, head and neck (in one report), face swollen, and he likely had an orbital blowout fracture.

I think the reports are shot 6 times, but that's a minor variance.

Regarding the audio, if it's of this incident, and if it hasn't been tampered with, there are numerous possibilities for the pause, IMO.

- Gun jams, he quickly clears it and starts firing again (I've heard Glock are common in LE, and it's not uncommon for them to jam.)

- A bystander or vehicle emerges behind Michael briefly. Wilson holds his fire until out of the line of fire.

- He fires, pauses while giving chase, starts firing again.

- He fires, pauses as Michael turns and speaks assessing (hoping) Michael is going to obey his lawful order, begins firing again and retreating as Michael advances. To me, this rings true.


I found it interesting though that the family's supporters thought the audio could only mean one thing. Bias can be blinding.

Aye great post Klood-N, I wanted to give some thoughts about why i discounted some of those idea's others I honestly did not consider.

-The Gun jam was discounted by me, I felt that given the amount of force used and the notion of a concussion that he wouldn't have the presence of mind to clear a jam in a Glock in the speed he would have had to do it in the pause, clearing a jam in a Glock can be a significant pain in the butt and would take a man with PoM about 1-2 seconds to clear before he got his hands back into place to prevent the automatic safey from being engaged (which involves holding the gun properly after reaching up and using the slide)

-I did not consider the bystander (tips hat) its possible.

-It seems odd he would give chase if he were firing upon a felon, if MB were moving along the street and OW was so worked over he could not hit MB< it seems odd he would elect to chase MB if thats his condition.

-The last point I agree on (in my first example) Its the time MB says "something" to OW but is still advancing, he doesn't stop, so OW resumes firing. You see this happen when folks commit "suicide by cop". Its not uncommon for a surrender to not be genuine. The idea of "You got me" all the while the target continues to advance.

 

[popsicle]

Allow me to add my thanks to Klood, popsicle, Oceans, Duchess, and everyone else who has been posting hard facts and data and logical deductions. Individually, we can each only get a tiny bit of the picture, but by combining and sharing what we've learned, we get a much bigger and clearer picture. Reedus, you help keep us focused on what little hard evidence we have, even when we disagree about what it mean.

Well said Sonjay... and yes, thank you Reedus for keeping us on our toes and thinking!