MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #19

[K_Z]

Someone remind me again why we care about any juvenile records either way? If they don't amount to what would have been an A or B felony, who really cares? Other than those who just want more ammo to bash MB. Will it play any role what so ever beyond that?

MB had only been 18 for a few weeks. If I was a GJ, I would be very interested in any juvenile records, including school records, that would help to put the violence, criminal behavior, and impulsivity MB displayed within 30 min time on Aug 9, into perspective.

Just as I would be interested in OW's entire professional service record, and any evidence from his personal life that he was a racist, or had some kind of undue bias or attitude toward those he was charged with policing. OW is 28, so I don't think it's necessary to go that far back into his juvenile record, but if it was offered, I'd consider it, too.

 

[Klood-N]

The courts denied the petition to release MB's juvenile records. The denial has been appealed. The courts did not say MB had no juvenile records. If you want to shut down appeals, you state that there are no records to release, if that is the truth.

The courts haven't said what the records "are" for, but they have said what they "are not". Not convicted of class A or B felonies, not currently facing prosecution for serious felonies, etc (to paraphrase). It's painfully obvious, IMO, that there is a juvenile record that the courts, at this time, are unwilling to discuss/ release.

I'm pretty sure the GJ will have access to the records, if they request them.

Regarding charges:

That is meaningless to John Burns, the attorney for GotNews.com.

"That doesn't mean there weren't charges filed, there was nothing said in open court," he said. "There could be a wealth of information inside of these files."
And another family attorney quote:

Gray argued that even if Brown did have a minor juvenile record for something like truancy, it has nothing to do with whether Officer Darren Wilson acted with excessive force.
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/loca...-of-michael-browns-juvenile-records/15021319/

 

[Elley Mae]

Regarding charges:

That is meaningless to John Burns, the attorney for GotNews.com.

"That doesn't mean there weren't charges filed, there was nothing said in open court," he said. "There could be a wealth of information inside of these files."
And another family attorney quote:

Gray argued that even if Brown did have a minor juvenile record for something like truancy, it has nothing to do with whether Officer Darren Wilson acted with excessive force.
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/loca...-of-michael-browns-juvenile-records/15021319/

I would like to know what excessive force would be to Gray? what would warrant MB being shot.

 

[K_Z]

Why? The council isn't investigating it; the grand jury & StL County police are. There really is a fundamental lack of information regarding facts and how things work there, IMO.

Correct. And that should be the opening statement from the council chair. But probably the crowd wouldn't hear that, or care. They just want to vent their frustrations on someone, and the city council meeting is a convenient means (a soft target) to make a scene. IMO. I'm actually worried for the safety of the council members. There have been shootings in the news during school board and city council meetings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkwood_City_Council_shooting

The Kirkwood City Council shooting occurred on February 7, 2008, in Kirkwood, Missouri, United States; a suburb of St. Louis, Missouri in St. Louis County. A gunman went on a shooting rampage at a public meeting in the city hall, leaving six people dead and two others injured. Charles Lee "Cookie" Thornton shot one police officer with a revolver across the side street from city hall and took the officer's handgun before entering city hall.[1] Thornton reached council chambers with these two weapons shortly after the meeting began. There, he shot a police officer, the public works director, two council members, the mayor, and a reporter. In total, the gunman killed five and wounded two others. He was then shot and killed by police.[1][5][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Panama_City_school_board_shootings

There are more if one searches. A disgruntled crowd is a dangerous crowd. I hope there is a strong police presence.

 

[bettybaby00]

MB had only been 18 for a few weeks. If I was a GJ, I would be very interested in any juvenile records, including school records, that would help to put the violence, criminal behavior, and impulsivity MB displayed within 30 min time on Aug 9, into perspective.

Just as I would be interested in OW's entire professional service record, and any evidence from his personal life that he was a racist, or had some kind of undue bias or attitude toward those he was charged with policing. OW is 28, so I don't think it's necessary to go that far back into his juvenile record, but if it was offered, I'd consider it, too.

BBM as we can see from Parks statement, that's the only thing that's relevant. He doesn't get the "it goes both ways" concept.

 

[reedus23]

Excellent point. Every source on both sides so far has carried an agenda. Right now: choosing which one to want to believe or fits the version of events they see. Nothing wrong with that, but with all the conflicting testimony out there and suspect sources (on both sides), none of us have the slightest idea what will happen.

Both sides have tried every which way to twist this case in the press that it is sickening.

Yepp. There is not much about this case that hasn't sickened me. I'm not specifically referencing posts here, but just things I see/read in the bigger picture that just sicken me:

A police officer telling a kid to move from the street when no cop in west county would have given it 2 thoughts.
People throwing molatov (sp?) cocktails.
Burning/looting/rioting.
Police looking like they're equipped for WW3.
Blind support for MB.
Blind support for OW.
Bringing in individuals like Sharpton/Crump that only speak in terms of race.
The racism, some overt and some subtle, expressed by supporters of OW.
Social media and no names on the internet driving the course of discussion (Anonymous/CJ).

I'm sure the list can go on and on, but it all makes me question if we are advancing one bit as a society.

 

[krimekat]

Now what was it that gram use to say: "They are waiting for the dust to settle." That is exactly my gut feeling. Let them cool their jets. If I were on the GJ and I was fearful for my safety if we came back with a "no bill" I'd beg the judge for the maximum time available to release the information to the public. Hey, I could be wrong but that is the feeling I'm getting. The GJ has no other cases but this one. How much more information do they need when their decision comes down to the law and what OW's perception was at the time he shot MB? JMO

I thought the StL County GJ had many cases they are reviewing including this one . . . unless the County is holding these particular GJ members & extended their participation as a "special GJ" specific to this case while starting another GJ session this month for "other cases". Thanks!

 

[reedus23]

MB had only been 18 for a few weeks. If I was a GJ, I would be very interested in any juvenile records, including school records, that would help to put the violence, criminal behavior, and impulsivity MB displayed within 30 min time on Aug 9, into perspective.

Just as I would be interested in OW's entire professional service record, and any evidence from his personal life that he was a racist, or had some kind of undue bias or attitude toward those he was charged with policing. OW is 28, so I don't think it's necessary to go that far back into his juvenile record, but if it was offered, I'd consider it, too.

If OW got into trouble for having weed on him at age 17, I just don't know what relevance that has. Same be said for MB. If there was anything actually relevant, it would have been released because it would have fallen within an exception to the rule.

 

[krimekat]

But the grand jury are most likely not experts in these matters either, yet you consider it OK for THEM to decide whether the shooting was justifiable, and whether charges should be brought. What's the difference, other than THESE ordinary folks are called a "grand jury"? The members of the grand jury have no unique qualifications, in fact they haven't even been screened for bias - that is why the grand jury process bothers me.

but that's the foundation of Grand Juries -- taking ordinary folks from a region to decide if evidence warrants a true bill -- not "professional jurors"

I have faith in StL County's process -- it's worked for many many years apparently

 

[Muffet]

Thank you, excellent post!

I would rank "spurious claims" (that we know are false) as worse than rumors from any old Joe. The rumors from Joe may or may not be true -- sometimes the most outrageous rumors turn out to be factually true -- while we know the spurious claims are false.

I would add witnesses -- named witnesses, who are willing to have their name attached their story publicly -- as better than rumors, generally. IMO, some named witnesses can be more reliable than leaks from officials, and others can be very unreliable. Named witnesses actually would be in various places in your ranking, so I guess there's not one spot where they can be ranked.

Publicly available photos and videos (as long as they're not photochopped) are generally very reliable as far as showing what they show at a particular moment in time. Although, as we know, photos & vids can show things only from a particular angle or fail to include things that can vastly change our perception of what they show.

Thanks, and I agree!

Another level I forgot to add includes:

Media "investigative" reports

Eg. Huffington Post's report that "concluded" THE CHIEF LIED ABOUT THE VIDEO REQUESTS :facepalm:

A lot of people, here and elsewhere, blindly jumped on that bandwagon as a fact with both feet, repeatedly calling the chief a liar.

(Didn't last long here, as diligent sleuthers looked up the real facts. Lol :thumbup: )

Same for others out there, like those still citing the ZOMG "FPD abused then charged poor guy for getting blood on the cops' shirts" case.

Also swallowed whole, with outrage...

... Until those "proofs of FPD corruption" died down because they were ruled OT by mods, AND because we found the actual court documents that show that story to be hogwash.

So that's why we also have to sleuth what the media feeds us as "investigative journalism" before jumping to accept it as fact.

[edited to clean up - posting on my way out. Catch up with you all later! :waves:

 

[reedus23]

Regarding charges:

That is meaningless to John Burns, the attorney for GotNews.com.

"That doesn't mean there weren't charges filed, there was nothing said in open court," he said. "There could be a wealth of information inside of these files."
And another family attorney quote:

Gray argued that even if Brown did have a minor juvenile record for something like truancy, it has nothing to do with whether Officer Darren Wilson acted with excessive force.
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/loca...-of-michael-browns-juvenile-records/15021319/

If we're only talking about charges with no punishment handed down for them, then there is even more reason why those should never be disclosed. Simple charges without a "conviction" are extremely irrelevant.

 

[bettybaby00]

Yepp. There is not much about this case that hasn't sickened me. I'm not specifically referencing posts here, but just things I see/read in the bigger picture that just sicken me:

A police officer telling a kid to move from the street when no cop in west county would have given it 2 thoughts.
People throwing molatov (sp?) cocktails.
Burning/looting/rioting.
Police looking like they're equipped for WW3.
Blind support for MB.
Blind support for OW.
Bringing in individuals like Sharpton/Crump that only speak in terms of race.
The racism, some overt and some subtle, expressed by supporters of OW.
Social media and no names on the internet driving the course of discussion (Anonymous/CJ).

I'm sure the list can go on and on, but it all makes me question if we are advancing one bit as a society.

I disagree. Why wouldn't a cop tell 2 people walking down the center of a main thoroughfare to get out of the street? It's dangerous for them as well as drivers trying to pass. What's not normal about that situation is that the directive was ignored.

 

[krimekat]

We've seen multiple snippets of cell phone vids at Canfield Green, but what about the Canfield Green surveillance cameras outside? I was reading about the explosion in negligence claims filed by renters against landlords for failure to provide crime deterrents like outside cameras, particularly in the complex's parking lots and public areas. If the shooting had occurred at night, Crump may have claimed the lack of sufficient lighting played a part. Canfield Green must have had outside cameras in place, so where are those vids?

How dangerous was Canfield Green? Any reporting on how many times police have answered calls from there during the last 5 years, and what was the nature of the calls?

well, I live in the City of StL & know better to go to Canfield Green or Nantucket Gardens unless I am looking for crack

I don't believe there were working outside cameras on the buildings (let alone working outside lights) at Canfield Green according to some residents' comments in mid-Aug -- one only needs to read comments available online about particular complexes to know where not to live

crime maps??? my Gawd - so many sexual offenders

 

[hambirg]

Someone remind me again why we care about any juvenile records either way? If they don't amount to what would have been an A or B felony, who really cares? Other than those who just want more ammo to bash MB. Will it play any role what so ever beyond that?

I think we care because it might shine some light on MB's very irrational behavior that day.

But you are right, it doesn't play a role in whether the shooting was justified. We already know that MB refused to move out of the street when asked to do so by a LEO. He then assualted the LEO, struggled over the officer's firearm, which fired from inside the SUV into a busy street at an apartment buildiing. He then ran, turned and moved towards the officer, closing the gap between himself and the officer. That's really enough right there. His juvie record is inconsequential to his behavior.

 

[Klood-N]

She acknowledged that Siwak could open files further but implored her not to, saying the integrity of the family court was on the line.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_43c9bbbb-356f-5ea6-b9e2-7dde7e3e5c83.html

Harcourt said that "simple curiosity" doesn't trump the state's legal interest in protecting minors accused of crimes.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lawsuits-seek-michael-brown-juvenile-records-25224927

Implored is a strong word, and why implore the judge not to open nonexistent files? Why mention minors accused of crimes in relation to Michael if he had never been? I'd love to see the full transcript of the hearing. These statements plus those of the family's attorneys and the two unnamed LE sources, one Federal, lead me to believe there are records.

 

[popsicle]

Nicholas J.C. Pistor ‏@nickpistor 1h
Transparency comes with a price: STL police will need to increase annual budget by $800-900,000 for maintenance and upkeep of body cameras.

 

[Klood-N]

We've discussed this before but the records could be very relevant to events that day. A record of violence, gang affiliation, drug use, pending charges, a diversion condition, probation, deferred sentence etc could point to why Michael attacked Officer Wilson. As pointed out before, Shahid's 2nd degree assault of LE was a Class C felony. If Michael had been charged for that, I can't imagine anyone would consider it irrelevant.

 

[krimekat]

City Council meeting is tonight, right?

StL County mtg, I believe

Michael Brown Supporters Plan to Pack St. Louis County Council Meeting

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/09...plan-to-pack-st-louis-county-council-meeting/

 

[Trident]

Yepp. There is not much about this case that hasn't sickened me. I'm not specifically referencing posts here, but just things I see/read in the bigger picture that just sicken me:

A police officer telling a kid to move from the street when no cop in west county would have given it 2 thoughts.
People throwing molatov (sp?) cocktails.
Burning/looting/rioting.
Police looking like they're equipped for WW3.
Blind support for MB.
Blind support for OW.
Bringing in individuals like Sharpton/Crump that only speak in terms of race.
The racism, some overt and some subtle, expressed by supporters of OW.
Social media and no names on the internet driving the course of discussion (Anonymous/CJ).

I'm sure the list can go on and on, but it all makes me question if we are advancing one bit as a society.

Actually, I don't believe we are advancing one bit. All one needs to do is take a look around at the state of the economy, the wars, foreign, and serious national disputes, like Ferguson. All one needs to do is take a look at our once-great cities, ruins, drugs, crime, rape, murder, and mayhem.

Nope, we were a lot better off as a nation about 50 years ago.

In my opinion, of course.

 

[reedus23]

I disagree. Why wouldn't a cop tell 2 people walking down the center of a main thoroughfare to get out of the street? It's dangerous for them as well as drivers trying to pass. What's not normal about that situation is that the directive was ignored.

Yeah, we have a divergence of opinion on that and that's fine.

Canfield was NOT a main thoroughfare though. It might be considered a main thoroughfare to some from smaller communities I guess, but to me a main thoroughfare here in St. Louis is Olive or Manchester or Lindbergh or 141 or the like. Not some small street that is bounded by residential living on either side.