MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #2

[Hatfield]

just to be clear;

i keep hearing people on TV dismissing the new information, or claiming it is character assassination.

it is significant to know if the officer knew he was approaching 2 suspects suspected of a violent felony, but it doesnt appear that he did know that.

even so, it is still important to know about the robbery because it goes to michael's state of mind when he is approached by the officer.

it goes to discrediting dorian johnson as a witness.

and it makes it reasonably seem possible that michael's response might have been physical feeling like he was about to be grabbed for a robbery not just being confronted over jaywalking.

now you have to deal with rest of the discrepancies after the physical altercation starts, and reconciling that all the witness statements still make it seem like he was shot in the back fleeing and then shot with his hands up.

which all may end up being true, legal, and still perceived by many reasonable people as an injustice and something that should not be legal.

Good points.

I think a lot of us have developed a picture or short movie version of what we think transpired and we are all coming at it from our own perceptions of how we think things went down. Some of us may have it right and some of us may not have it right. And maybe none of us have it right if there is more information yet to be discovered about what happened.

The important part of this IMO is the part after the struggle.

IMO, from what I gathered so far, I envision the boy running away from the officer and getting some kind of distance between him and the officer. So if he is unarmed and some distance away and just fleeing, then I dont consider that a justified shooting.
Even worse would be if we find out the boy was kneeling with this hands up before getting shot.

Other people maybe thinking the shooting of the boy was literally during the struggle for the gun.

It does get very confusing and I can see why a lot of us have differeing opinions.

 

[liljim]

Isn't a crime to fight with a cop no matter your race or gender? It would be impossible for any witness to know who started the scuffle inside the patrol car.

JMO

umm of course it is? i certainly didnt mean to imply otherwise.

regarding witnesses, they all claim michael was never inside the patrol car, and that he wasnt reachng inside the patrol car. i always took this part of their statements to be the least reliable, not because i suspect them of lying or anything like that, but just because it would be very hard to view an altercation like that and state things for certain.

but, there is no denying that it is what they claim.

 

[cady]

I think it might be difficult to make a call for backup while engaged in a scuffle for your weapon.

True. But stating that the altercation was a scuffle for the weapon might be a nifty excuse for having used the weapon in the first place....especially if the only (so far) people who saw the weapon in the car were you and the dead guy. JMO

 

[liljim]

I am thinking..jmo

They were told to get out of the middle of the road.
As he drove away Wilson heard the BOLO and backed up.
MB assaulted Wilson as he tried to exit his vehicle.
MB struggled for the gun that Wilson was pulling out for protection.

reasonable thoughts, but it does appear that the police chief said again today that the officer did not consider them as suspected of any crime, he just stopped them for walking in the street, if there was anything else to it i have to think the police chief would have been sure to say so.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

This guy should not be dead. There is no reason he is dead. He should be in jail and anonymous. But he should not be dead. AT this point I don't see anything that shows he did anything to end up dead.

With no cameras, I just dont' see it.

 

[Tawny]

I don't think anybody is saying he SHOULD be dead. IMO.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I am thinking..jmo

They were told to get out of the middle of the road.
As he drove away Wilson heard the BOLO and backed up.
MB assaulted Wilson as he tried to exit his vehicle.
MB struggled for the gun that Wilson was pulling out for protection.

That is the cops version right?

Because I don't know if I believe this yet.

 

[liljim]

Good points.

I think a lot of us have developed a picture or short movie version of what we think transpired and we are all coming at it from our own perceptions of how we think things went down. Some of us may have it right and some of us may not have it right. And maybe none of us have it right if there is more information yet to be discovered about what happened.

The important part of this IMO is the part after the struggle.

IMO, from what I gathered so far, I envision the boy running away from the officer and getting some kind of distance between him and the officer. So if he is unarmed and some distance away and just fleeing, then I dont consider that a justified shooting.
Even worse would be if we find out the boy was kneeling with this hands up before getting shot.

Other people maybe thinking the shooting of the boy was literally during the struggle for the gun.

It does get very confusing and I can see why a lot of us have differeing opinions.

yep, i think the important part is leaving the option open to change your mind as more facts become known.

 

[MyBelle]

some people may not agree but robbery by force, which is what he did, is a felony and a very serious crime, it is not shoplifting.

ITA. Assaulting a police officer and trying to grab his gun also are felonies. This was no shoplifting incident.

 

[reedus23]

Did you watch the PC? Maybe you should google it and watch it.

Yes I watched it, but not online. Obviously my recollection wasn't 100% but if you want to get to the heart of the matter, the Chief was deceptive. From the previous post.

Reporter: Another name, Darren?
2nd Reporter: Darren Wilson.
Chief: I am not going to comment on that. (as all color goes out of his face)
Reporter: What do you think, are they just throwing names out there?
Chief: I think that's what they are doing, taking name after name after name and jus throwing them out there.

So while originally saying no comment, he goes on to play it off as Darren Wilson's name is just one of the names just being thrown out there. If you don't think that's deceptive then we'll agree to disagree. Having said that, I have picked up the tenor of your last 2 posts directed to me and instead of waging a subtle war of words, I'll step back and step away and leave it to you.

There was one thing I was going to post.

To LALaw and I believe katy is or is related to someone who is and to all the others that serve in law enforcement. I wanted to thank you for what you do. I know I have been critical of the show of force and I hope that hasn't offended. While I do think it is wise to question many things in life because that is how we advance as a society, I fear some of my posts have come across as questioning police officers in general...it's not what I intended. Those questions are directed at levels of decision makers, not at the 99% of the police force that is what we more commonly think of when thinking of law enforcement. It's a different subject, so I'll hit it too. As for the officer involved in the shooting...only time will tell what happens. Please don't take any criticisms voiced about police officers that abuse their authority as a criticism of law officers as a whole. Again, if any of my posts conveyed such a message, I apologize. It wasn't intended. Thank you for your service to your communities.

 

[Leilei]

I'm going to step on out and say that this man was only 18 - on the trajectory he was headed, I doubt he would have gone another 10 years without killing someone.

Really? He was about to go to college, and there is no evidence of him being a gang member or anything similar. What makes you come to that conclusion?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Yes I watched it, but not online. Obviously my recollection wasn't 100% but if you want to get to the heart of the matter, the Chief was deceptive. From the previous post.



So while originally saying no comment, he goes on to play it off as Darren Wilson's name is just one of the names just being thrown out there. If you don't think that's deceptive then we'll agree to disagree. Having said that, I have picked up the tenor of your last 2 posts directed to me and instead of waging a subtle war of words, I'll step back and step away and leave it to you.

There was one thing I was going to post.

To LALaw and I believe katy is or is related to someone who is and to all the others that serve in law enforcement. I wanted to thank you for what you do. I know I have been critical of the show of force and I hope that hasn't offended. While I do think it is wise to question many things in life because that is how we advance as a society, I fear some of my posts have come across as questioning police officers in general...it's not what I intended. Those questions are directed at levels of decision makers, not at the 99% of the police force that is what we more commonly think of when thinking of law enforcement. It's a different subject, so I'll hit it too. As for the officer involved in the shooting...only time will tell what happens. Please don't take any criticisms voiced about police officers that abuse their authority as a criticism of law officers as a whole. Again, if any of my posts conveyed such a message, I apologize. It wasn't intended. Thank you for your service to your communities.

Thanks for finding that. That is lying to me. It is deception clear and dry.

IT is a shame. If this had been handled right from DAY 1, It would have been a whole different story. IMO

 

[MyBelle]

True. But stating that the altercation was a scuffle for the weapon might be a nifty excuse for having used the weapon in the first place....especially if the only (so far) people who saw the weapon in the car were you and the dead guy. JMO

If his gun discharged in the cruiser as the Police Chief reported, it is not a "nifty excuse." Officers must provide an explanation for whenever their weapon discharges and this officer received facial injuries. If the bullet had struck the officer, Mr. Brown would be facing life in prison or the death penalty.

JMO

 

[popsicle]

What college? It could have changed his life forever.

So would the next store owner that is armed.

 

[sorrell skye]

that might be the only thing they said that i agreed with, tho it was only slightly.

it doesnt change the seriousness of the crime or anything else, but i did feel like when i saw the pictures that it looked really bad, then when i saw the video i didnt think it was quite so bad, still very bad, just slightly less so.

again, doesnt change the nature or seriousness of the crime, or the legitimacy of it being brought up.

In the CCTV footage, MB grabbed the clerk by the neck, forcibly stealing property, according to the Missouri criminal code.

MB committed a class B felony.

Robbery in the second degree.
569.030. 1. A person commits the crime of robbery in the second degree when he forcibly steals property.

2. Robbery in the second degree is a class B felony.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5690000030.HTM

MB's family, friends, and defenders can try to minimize his criminal actions all day long and they can try to vilify LE for releasing the CCTV footage, but the fact of the matter is: MB assaulted someone during the commission of a crime.

It doesn't matter that his act of violence during the commission of a crime was momentary - it was still violence. MB violently grabbed the clerk by the neck and pushed him.

Hmmmm... Now that I think about it, I wonder if MB's violent actions against the store clerk may have been the inspiration for Dorian Johnson's claim that the officer grabbed MB by the neck during the through-the-window altercation?

 

[Leilei]

some people may not agree but robbery by force, which is what he did, is a felony and a very serious crime, it is not shoplifting.

Would have been awesome if he wasn't shot dead for that. Not a death penalty crime. We're talking less than $50. What is his life worth?

 

[Frydaddy]

What I don't really get is why everyone is hung up on the "arms in the air surrendering". Based on today's release of information, I don't think anyone can form a clear picture of what happened in that street. Supposition perhaps, but nothing close to certainty.

 

[cady]

That is the cops version right?

Because I don't know if I believe this yet.

I don't believe it yet, either. And I'm afraid it's going to come down to Wilson's testimony vs all the witnesses, so far, that we have heard from. JMO

 

[popsicle]

Good points.

I think a lot of us have developed a picture or short movie version of what we think transpired and we are all coming at it from our own perceptions of how we think things went down. Some of us may have it right and some of us may not have it right. And maybe none of us have it right if there is more information yet to be discovered about what happened.

The important part of this IMO is the part after the struggle.

IMO, from what I gathered so far, I envision the boy running away from the officer and getting some kind of distance between him and the officer. So if he is unarmed and some distance away and just fleeing, then I dont consider that a justified shooting.
Even worse would be if we find out the boy was kneeling with this hands up before getting shot.

Other people maybe thinking the shooting of the boy was literally during the struggle for the gun.

It does get very confusing and I can see why a lot of us have differeing opinions.

I don't think he was killed during the struggle for the gun... however, this wasn't an innocent little child. Another thing that will be interesting is trajectory. jmo

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What I don't really get is why everyone is hung up on the "arms in the air surrendering". Based on today's release of information, I don't think anyone can form a clear picture of what happened in that street. Supposition perhaps, but nothing close to certainty.

Because if you are in the position of surrender They are not allowed to shoot you. No matter who you are or what you have done. And at this point we have witnesses that say he was arms up saying don't shoot.