MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #21

[reedus23]

I disagree. Tanks are offensive weapons, these are not. Armored vehicles are used for safe transport of money, valuables, people, and tools. Not uncommon for SWAT teams.

LAPD credits armored vehicle for protection in morning shootout

The chase ended hours later, when one of the men in the car opened fire with a “high-powered rifle” at an approaching SWAT team protected by a BearCat armored vehicle. One officer was shot in the calf during the exchange and was rushed to surgery, and the shooter was killed.

“The BearCat played a large role in the survival of his life,” said LAPD Officer Wendy Reyes of the wounded SWAT officer. “We don’t know what the outcome could’ve been. He could’ve been killed.”

Such vehicles are used in active shooting situations -- such as the Stockton bank robbery and shootout last month that left three people dead. The vehicle shielded approaching officers who closed in on the suspect.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-swat-gun-battle-armored-vehicle-20140818-story.html

Meh. They're tanks IMO.

 

[CMac2]

@KMOXKilleen
#Ferguson protestors hope to punish candidate with ties to prosecutor in the #MichaelBrown case. pic.twitter.com/54OqCY7YT2
https://twitter.com/KMOXKilleen/status/514096754451423232
^
Baruti

I would just be happy if we could get people to show up and vote. I think it's a stretch to say protestors want to "punish" Stenger- given the focus on violence and riots, that's an unfortunately choice of words. I try to encourage people to do their own research on the candidates, and not take either side's word for it. We live in a technological age in which there is no excuse for ignorance.

 

[CMac2]

Correct. With a drawing of StL

There are racists that reside in St. Louis. If it doesn't apply to you, just disregard it. Or maybe, work within the community to show those who believe racists live here that non-racists greatly outnumber the racists. People think it's our responsibility as "protestors" to educate the public about who we really are. Perhaps you should do the same, and educate the public about how rare racism really is, if it's as rare as you believe it to be. I don't believe it's rare, but I don't believe every citizen in the Metro East is racist either. If you truly don't care about skin color, that's a wonderful thing. It might be worthwhile to share your journey with others. Maybe open some minds.

 

[reedus23]

Correct. With a drawing of StL

I'm white. I'm in St. Louis. I presume you are too in order to take so much offense to that statement.

So add the drawing. Now in total it's saying "Racism exists here, in St. Louis" not "Everyone in St. Louis is racist". Are you denying that there are white people in St. Louis that hold racist views? I'm sure you're not, so why so much offense to a banner that only states the obvious.

 

[Klood-N]

ArgusRadio's Mustafa posted his bruise.
https://twitter.com/ArgusRadio/status/514045414304387072

Why was his shoulder in front of the mirror of the SUV, in the middle of the road? It is illegal to block traffic, disturb the peace, etc.

 

[katydid23]

I hope that if it is felt that sensitivity training is needed, that is exactly what they do. It seems to me some get more worked up about things here than even the council members do. For weeks I've heard so many people barking about "demands" and likening them to "terroristic threats" and calling it "extortion". Seems to me the council members there at least are being level headed and recognize them for what they are, requests of their government that the people feel can improve their community. Some may be good ideas. Some may be bad. The point is to talk about them and try to move forward.

If I remember correctly, I think the topic of this meeting is supposed to be something about clearing up misconceptions about Ferguson and to provide for more transparency as to the city leader's positions. Regardless of the topic, the important factor is that a dialogue is going on.

BBM

What else do u call it when someone makes 'requests that will improve their community' and follows by saying they will burn the city down if it is not
accepted or complied with?

 

[reedus23]

ArgusRadio's Mustafa posted his bruise.
https://twitter.com/ArgusRadio/status/514045414304387072

Why was his shoulder in front of the mirror of the SUV, in the middle of the road? It is illegal to block traffic, disturb the peace, etc.

Way too much twitter.

 

[reedus23]

BBM

What else do u call it when someone makes 'requests that will improve their community' and follows by saying they will burn the city down if it is not
accepted or complied with?

Well, I guess you call them what the councilman called them "requests that will improve their community"

 

[Angelonline]

I've been amazed that both her staff and Nasheed's have been at the heart of the highway shutdown and the the road blockage/driver intimidation, especially when LE & EMS said that's dangerous (and it's against the law).

Is the state paying these staff members when they are on these missions for the senators? That's my question.

 

[Klood-N]

Is the state paying these staff members when they are on these missions for the senators? That's my question.

Wow. That's an excellent question!

 

[Klood-N]

Zaki Baruti, head of the Justice for Michael Brown Leadership Coalition, accused Stenger and his political ally - County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch - of orchestrating a "racist campaign" against incumbent County Executive Charlie Dooley in the August primary.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_986ddf34-95a0-50c1-bcdb-a56edc43ffc0.html

Sounds like his organizing in the minutes after Michael was transported paid off.

 

[Angelonline]

My biggest problem with her as a leader is the fact that that she deemed it appropriate to use the language she used on a public forum. I use just as colorful language so it's not the language itself that I have a problem with but the decision making process that went on within herself that told her it was okay to use such language in such a public way. It would make me question her decision making process, particularly in times of crisis.

My problem is that she calls white people KKK, including the Jewish man that had his car surrounded on Saturday. Though I think her language isn't fitting of a senator it is the least of her bad behavior IMO.

 

[SStarr33]

There are racists that reside in St. Louis. If it doesn't apply to you, just disregard it. Or maybe, work within the community to show those who believe racists live here that non-racists greatly outnumber the racists. People think it's our responsibility as "protestors" to educate the public about who we really are. Perhaps you should do the same, and educate the public about how rare racism really is, if it's as rare as you believe it to be. I don't believe it's rare, but I don't believe every citizen in the Metro East is racist either. If you truly don't care about skin color, that's a wonderful thing. It might be worthwhile to share your journey with others. Maybe open some minds.

Sorry, I value my life. No way I will be heading anywhere close to there.

<modsnip>

 

[SStarr33]

I'm white. I'm in St. Louis. I presume you are too in order to take so much offense to that statement.

So add the drawing. Now in total it's saying "Racism exists here, in St. Louis" not "Everyone in St. Louis is racist". Are you denying that there are white people in St. Louis that hold racist views? I'm sure you're not, so why so much offense to a banner that only states the obvious.

As I previously stated to you, there are racists of every ethnicity. Quit looking at skin color--it doesn't matter.

 

[CMac2]

Zaki Baruti, head of the Justice for Michael Brown Leadership Coalition[\B], accused Stenger and his political ally - County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch - of orchestrating a "racist campaign" against incumbent County Executive Charlie Dooley in the August primary.

I'll admit to being in the minority with my normal crowd where Dooley is concerned. I think he's as useless as half the others. When did he become a hero for the masses in this area? He's as much a part of the status quo as McCulloch is. I've seen examples of what I believe to be legitimate racism, but Stenger's victory in the primary over Dooley was not one of them. Dooley has not exactly been a ray of light for the black community either. He had a lot of years to make a difference, and it's debatable whether he ever acheived that goal. Seems a little like slamming the barn door after the horse is already out, to complain about Stenger at this juncture. Where were these Stenger detractors in August at the polls?

 

[katydid23]

These young men- whether justified or not- perceive a system at play that is against them. They believe in their hearts that law enforcement cares nothing about them, and that the political machine not only doesn't represent them, but is actively against them. I don't agree that's the case, but I do understand that's their perception. That's where community comes I to play. Where we remind these young men that they have a voice, and they need to use it, or stop complaining. Register to vote, then show up. Get up to speed on the candidates and the issues. Show up at the townhall meetings. We want to hear them. The problem is that they don't believe we want to hear them. There's a monumental lack of trust.

But don't a lot of those problems, like feeling one is not heard, and not worthy, START AT HOME? Just looking at Michaels childhood, and Dorians childhood, point out some real problems. And I don't think they can blame the establishment or white power structure for those problems. Teen parents, very little stability in the home, lack of guidance from a father, poor role modeling, are the sources of much of the pain these young men feel, imo.

Like you, my daughter is mixed race. She is half Jamaican, and quarter American Indian, a quarter Swedish. So I know it is complicated. She is the one who first told me about this shooting. She was outraged and so was I. But after coming here and reading THE FACTS, I changed my mind about what really happened. And it really bothers me that people keep chanting for the death of OW. And teaching their young kids to call for his death!

And that is just keeping that whole cycle of neglect and abuse going in the upcoming generation, imo. What do the kids expect their future to be if they start having babies with various partners at age 15, don't graduate from school, and just bounce around from place to place? How can they blame others when they set that situation up for themselves? The school I worked for in South Central Los Angeles had a built in nursery for the babies, and this was in the 90's. It is like setting up the expectation that young girls would become pregnant. Some girls had two babies in care during their high school years.

 

[K_Z]

Wow! Lots of interesting discourse today! Lots to catch up on later.

I don't have a lot of time, and don't want to get too far off topic, but I'd like to know why the "vehicles" being perceived as tanks is a bad thing? (A short answer is ok, if anyone wants to answer.)

I'm shaking my head about this. So what if they WERE Abrams tanks rolling down the street?? If my town were being burned and looted, with out of control rioters, and I were desperately trying to get myself and my kids away, I would WELCOME tanks rolling right down the double yellow line!

When anarchy and chaos is going on, there have to be measures to restore order. And let's remember-- the armored vehicles/ tanks/ whatever you want to call them, did not open fire in a "Tiananmen Square" fashion in Ferguson. They showed such immense restraint, IMO, as to be pretty much impotent against the rioters, who continued to riot, and loot, and burn, and throw improvised explosives, and bottles of pee, until they got tired and stopped. Basically, the "tanks" stood there and watched the riots. LE only arrested a very few people-- around 38, IIRC, when hundreds should have been arrested, IMO (and the opinion of a lot of others!).

Now granted, I have nearly 20 years military experience-- both active and reserve, so I've seen more than a few tanks up close. But I really don't get why anyone is upset about LE being appropriately outfitted to respond to riots? And maybe it's because I perceive tanks as the "good guys", here to help, IDK. So apparently, others must perceive tanks as "not the good guys?" The rioters are the good guys???

Why should criminals and rioters NOT be subject to LE show of force?? This isn't even a slippery slope argument, that this was a peaceful protest with tanks. They were burning businesses to the ground-- that isn't a peaceful protest, even if it started out that way. I've never heard any kind of cogent explanation for why rioters should be allowed to burn and loot, except from looters who want to steal "stuff" and not be held accountable.

Wouldn't any of us want a strong LE presence to protect our homes, businesses, and families? To STOP the riots?? To ARREST those participating? You can't do that by hugging the rioters, and asking them how they "feel" about things. You need an overwhelming show of force to restore peace. It's that way everywhere in the world that riots occur. A rioter is a rioter-- no matter the color of his or her skin, or their ethnic background, or even what they are supposedly rioting about.

Again, who cares if they were tanks? Why is this annoying/ upsetting to some?

 

[CMac2]

Sorry, I value my life. No way I will be heading anywhere close to there.

And it is clear there are plenty of racists in that area. We see them constantly protesting about Mike Brown and we have seen no evidence he was killed because of his race.

I am one of the protestors you refer to. I am not racist at all. I have spent many hours in "that area" and I have never been threatened in any way, shape or form. I find it hard to take the statements seriously of someone who has no interest in being a part of progress. Not everyone agrees with the way people are choosing to fight this battle. God knows I have my differences with people on both sides of this issue- but I can say I'm doing the best I can to make a difference. People who armchair quarterback, and have no interest in making a difference have no credibility with me.

 

[katydid23]

Well, I guess you call them what the councilman called them "requests that will improve their community"

No, because a request does not include THREATS of violence if not complied with. The addition of the threat is what changes it from a request to extortion, imo.

 

[LambChop]

I just removed a group of posts about the tanks, whatever they were. It was posted somewhere on here earlier that the tank type vehicles were there with police sharp shooters to get a tactical advantage for a rooftop shooter for what was called in as a threat. Not because of the protestors but because of threats from KKK. Is this true? We do not know but if LE received a threat that protestors would be shot, yes, I can see them using this type of equipment for the protection of everyone. People were bringing their children and babies to these protests. Does anyone really think those vehicles were there for any other reason than the protection of all those involved?

I do know we also heard when the news of this shooting initially broke that the KKK were planning on sending people to Ferguson. Thank goodness that never happened.