MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #12

[panthera]

It's not hard to cover a kid's mouth and take them out. Also, some kids may keep on sleeping, even if lifted. And some kids may not cry if a stranger woke and picked them up. Didn't the mom say Lisa is very friendly and will go to anyone?

The problem is, however, unless the perpetrator is familiar with the child, they do not know that upon attempting to abduct her. If indeed Lisa was kidnapped, it is most likely, imo, by someone very familiar with the house, family and the baby.

MOO

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I saw on the noon news that LE was in Edwardsville searching. I don't think they found anything, but I did recognize the exact location.

Where they were searching is right across the river from the dump. The street they were on is west of I-435 and is the first street next to the river. It's an industrial area, but there's quite a bit of traffic because once you make the turn to head north, there's a neighborhood. There's also a park at the bend in the road prior to reaching the houses. Not sure if it's a park-like setting, or for the fisherman. I didn't see the river on the news report, so I am not sure if they mentioned that or not.

I wonder why they were there? I wonder if there are relatives that live in Edwardsville? If I thought they would be out there today I'd drive over and see what's going on, but I think they are done with that area.

I can see LE checking Deffenbaugh's dump. Deffenbaugh handles the trash for a lot of the greater KC area, but this area is different. Why would they be there? It's quite a drive from where the family lives. I guess it could have been a tip they were following up on and were checking it out.

The river has been very high. We had flooding up north and it's just now starting to recede. Typically during the summer, if the river isn't high, that area, especially just east of I-435, has quite a few fishermen. The intake for the Johnson County water is east of the highway and the fishermen walk out on the stone (or might be concrete) to fish. This stone or concrete is there to divert water toward the intake area for JOCO water. It's not blocked off, but there's a diversion area. If the water is high, you can't access the concrete/rocks. It seems like the other day when I went that way I could see some of the rocks.

Anyway, my point is, if the water is low, anything that goes in the river upstream has a good chance of getting hung up for either a little bit or for a long time.

How far is that from Lisa's house? Are there homeless people in the area? Would it be an easy bike ride to the Irwins?

 

[Jacie Estes]

I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

w/o prejudice means it can be revisited in court

 

[wfgodot]

I live in the historic district here in Jackson county. Even with the magnitude of some of the houses in my area alone, my rent is always cheaper than in JOCO as well as my electric bills. JOCO is a show off zone from all I've ever seen. I would rather save my money over here than show off some huge expensive condo

Amongst many Kansans too, JoCo is something of a joke.

 

[LandAuxvasse]

I live in the historic district here in Jackson county. Even with the magnitude of some of the houses in my area alone, my rent is always cheaper than in JOCO as well as my electric bills. JOCO is a show off zone from all I've ever seen. I would rather save my money over here than show off some huge expensive condo

And to add to the O/T convo... over here closer to the middle of the state, I cringe when I see a Kansas license plate with JO in the corner, because a lot of them drive in the left hand lane and believe that no one should ever have a need to pass them (not even the MO State Troopers).

MOO :twocents: AND OFF TOPIC (1st time ever for me!!)

 

[justbeachy]

It seems to me that so many of our theories involve a lot of "if this, then this and, then because of that, then this" in order to make them work. I'm starting to feel like a fact contortionist.

 

[Hallow]

Oh we could all go on and on and on about JOCO crazy drivers

 

[Hallow]

Hey now, don't bunch us all together. We have some nice and normal areas over. We also have areas that I'd rather avoid.

You shall henceforth be named "the exception to the rule" :crazy:

 

[vasportsmom]

I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

BBM. Could that be FC=Family Court CS=Child Support. The dismissed part, didn't I read somewhere in an earlier thread (and I apoligize if this later got deleted or ruled rumor, I missed a lot the past few days) that JI's ex sued him for a change in visitation and temp custody but then didn't even show up for the hearing? If so that would make sense for the "dismissed w/o prejudice", right?

 

[denalves]

This is exactly the case that comes to mind when thinking about this one! I am so sorry this happened to you, but it is nice to know that somebody understands that it CAN happen. 2 questions - 1. is your suspect a 'familiar' entity to your family? and 2. is your neighborhood one of those like this where everybody knows everybody and is extremely quiet? Just curious but I bet I know the answers as yes.

1. The suspect had an affair with my Father. Her name had been given to LE the day after disappearance and unfortunately she was not investigated. Someone right under our thumb. 2. The neighborhood was quiet and friendly, but I would not say all the neighbors knew everyone. We new our immediate neighbors.

 

[luvbeaches]

How far is that from Lisa's house? Are there homeless people in the area? Would it be an easy bike ride to the Irwins?

It is a long way from the Irwin's. There's no way you could ride a bike to this location. I think it would take 40 minutes by car, maybe longer depending on traffic. And, yes, there could be homeless people there. I'll go look. I've never gone into the park area because it's right next to the river and it's at the end of the industrial/warehouse area. There's also a sand plant on that street. My husband would kill me if he knew I was over there by myself (poking around the park area). I'll scoot over there this afternoon.

 

[MissJames]

I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

I'm not sure how to stress this more than I already have.:banghead:
Parents don't give up on their children if there's been an accident. They just don't assume the child is beyond help. The parents instinct is to get help,to do CPR as best they can. Even abusive parents will try to get help and then lie about what happened .
Only if the intention was to kill the child ,would the parents then get rid of the body.

I feel so strongly about this that I'm going to put it in my siggie.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

BBM

Case dismissed but you could file again.

 

[pinki]

Maybe the perp had a steak for the dog and a bottle for the baby. Sorry but this father is looking so guilty to me and the Mom looks like the spokesperson.

 

[wfgodot]

Okay, JoCo moratorium! But I just wish some rich family there had paid for a baby Lisa to raise as their own, after, I don't know, fertility problems maybe. Too close to home for a destination, it's true, and thus unlikely, but it would mean the child is still alive. So maybe somewhere that's the case and the baby was taken to be raised by another.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

Snipped by me.

Okay, you are making a lot of sense in this post and I don't like it (I'm trying so hard to keep giving the parents the benefit of the doubt), lol. What if the cell phones had rang and woke Lisa. Most babies who are startled awake don't just whimper they really scream and if the perp had to walk far to his car I would think that a screaming baby would have woke someone in the neighborhood. That is a really big chance to take. So did he take that chance or did he take the time to turn the phones off? Either way this perp seemed to be mighty comfortable in that home and with their "possessions" (quotes because I hate referring to any child that way).

MOO ... I was hoping it made some kind of sense - lol ... I have tried to give the parents the "benefit of the doubt" as well ... but IMO, nothing "fits".

And as far as the intruder, if the intruder came in and out of the same window and took only the Baby, a big MAYBE an "IDI" ... but those 3 cell phones that are missing from the home don't point to an "intruder" IMO ...

I wish we had more info from LE, which makes me believe that LE KNOWS what "most likely" happened ... and IMO, I don't think LE believes the "intruder theory".

I just hope they find Baby Lisa soon !

MOO ...

 

[Dr.Fessel]

It is a long way from the Irwin's. There's no way you could ride a bike to this location. I think it would take 40 minutes by car, maybe longer depending on traffic. And, yes, there could be homeless people there. I'll go look. I've never gone into the park area because it's right next to the river and it's at the end of the industrial/warehouse area. There's also a sand plant on that street. My husband would kill me if he knew I was over there by myself (poking around the park area). I'll scoot over there this afternoon.

Well be careful!!

 

[Ellebelle]

What do we know about the parents and their socio-economic status? What do they do for a living? How long have they been together, etc? Any prior criminal history or drug use?

This is the Missouri case site:

https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/base/welcome.do

 

[luvbeaches]

Well be careful!!

It's not a bad area, I just don't know what's down in the park area. I've not really seen any cars when I've made the turn, but I also haven't been down there so I don't know if the cars are just out of view. There's a little restaurant in Edwardsville (Mac's Place) that we love to eat at and we come in that direction because it's quicker for us.

 

[mck16]

MOO ...

BBM: I'm not buying it either ...

Here's what an "intruder" would have to overcome to get Baby out with NO ONE hearing or seeing anything :

1. Open the screen / window without any noise that would wake up someone in the house, or maybe even a neighbor could hear.
2. Open the screen / window without any neighbors or passers-by seeing intruder open the screen / window while "breaking" into house.
3. Lights -- did intruder need more light to see, was there enough light for intruder ?
4. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Mother or anyone else in the house.5. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Dog - even if dog is in yard -- dogs "sense" "danger" !
6. Keep a 10 month old Baby QUIET, so baby's cries do not wake up anyone else in house.
7. Walk through house from Baby's room ... see what intruder can "steal" ... "steal" the 3 cell phones sitting on the counter... and hope these 3 cell phones do NOT ring.
8. Unlock front door and make sure that while unlocking the front door, it does not wake someone in house up.
9. Exit house and make sure no one in house sees or hears intruder leaving.
10. Exit house and make sure none of the neighbors or passers-by see intruder leaving with Baby ...

Now ... the intruder could have taken the phones first, then baby ... either way, intruder has a lot of to do without being seen or heard ...

IMO ... if an "intruder" just kidnapped Baby Lisa, and did not take 3 cell phones ... maybe ...

I'm still stuck on the 3 cell phones ... and particularly, Baby Lisa NOT CRYING if she was taken by an "intruder".

MOO ...

I really think that if the person were experienced in breaking and entering it could be done easily, especially if the house is carpeted and all bedroom doors are closed. Mother's br the furtherest away.

Also if this was a planned kidnapping, they could have some agent that would put her out at least until he got out of there with her. They could do all this and not even pass by the mother's br. this is just some random thoughts.