MO - Misty Horner & baby die in home birth, Lees Summit, 8 Dec 2006

  • #121
angelmom said:
Why is this different?

Because by the same argument, the husband was bound to obey the wishes expressed by his wife BEFORE complications developed. I.e., based on the same principle, he would have been legally liable if he HAD intervened.

I'm not saying this is the final word on this case, just that it is the logical extension of the evidence you present. (I've had the same experience, BTW. An oral surgeon was talking with me before surgery, but he couldn't pull a wisdom tooth we both thought a problem because he had already started administering anesthetic and I couldn't give consent for the additional procedure.)
 
  • #122
Nova said:
Because by the same argument, the husband was bound to obey the wishes expressed by his wife BEFORE complications developed. I.e., based on the same principle, he would have been legally liable if he HAD intervened.

I'm not saying this is the final word on this case, just that it is the logical extension of the evidence you present. (I've had the same experience, BTW. An oral surgeon was talking with me before surgery, but he couldn't pull a wisdom tooth we both thought a problem because he had already started administering anesthetic and I couldn't give consent for the additional procedure.)

I beg to disagree. Just because I had signed those forms did not mean that my doctor would risk my life to do the procedure. He is obligated by his oath to save me. Even if I had a legal DNR or living will (which I do) it would not have been legal for him to withhold care at that time. Your oral surgeon would not have let you die just because you did or did not sign the appropriate forms beforehand.

In this case, the man could have made decisions for his wife that they had discussed beforehand if they were such things as pain control or who cut the cord. He is not allowed to let her die.
 
  • #123
angelmom said:
I beg to disagree...

AM, I'm sure many doctors would agree with your assessment under the Hippocratic Oath. I would.

But the husband (unless there is a slant to this case we haven't heard yet) did not take the Oath and is not held by it. (More on this later.)

Your initial example showed that instructions from a patient who is unable to consent are not binding on a doctor. But then you assume something else: that once a patient is unable to consent, any prior instructions are moot and the doctor is free (obligated, actually) to follow her conscience.

If this were true, no DNR would be worth the paper on which it is printed. Nor would any of the consent forms patients are required to sign before surgery. Once the ether kicks in, we're all at the mercy of physicians.

(Boil it down further and you seem to be arguing that once a person is unable to give consent, your wishes supersede hers.)

The case cited below is nicely analogous. It involves a Jehovah's Witness, but she too was at death's door after delivering. Her prior instructions forbade blood transfusions, but the doctor got a court to order one. The Connecticut Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the doctor (and his judge) acted illegally.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...e/Times Topics/Subjects/R/Religion and Belief

Here's a somewhat similar case from Michigan with the same result:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-2234(196601)64%3A3%3C554%3AAOIBTF%3E2.0.CO%3B2-A

The bottom line is simple: the fact that you can no longer give consent does not invalidate your prior instructions. I suppose an exception would be if a doctor or loved one could prove the current emergency involved circumstances the patient could not have contemplated when the instructions were given. (I'm speculating, but let's imagine a woman who thought she was sterile turns out to be pregnant on the operating table. Maybe you could argue that her prior instructions are invalid because she had no way of knowing those instructions would someday also affect her baby.)

In the case we are discussing, the instructions were NO MEDICAL CARE (again, unless it turns out reports are incorrect). Pregnancy complications at home are reasonably foreseeable and there is no reason to believe the woman didn't intend her instructions to apply to such complications.

THAT BEING SAID, perhaps a case could be made on the basis of the husband's efforts to free the dead fetus. As far as I know, nothing in the Bible distinguishes between amateur and professional medical care. (In fact our concept of amateur v. professional didn't exist at the time.)

Once the husband took up his allegedly dirty scissors, he had already violated the wife's instructions. Perhaps a case could be made that at that point, the husband had a different obligation and should have called 911. This argument would be particularly ripe if it can be shown that his action contributed in any way to her eventual death. (I mean the overt action with the scissors, not his inaction otherwise.)

Still, the woman's inability to consent after beginning labor doesn't change her instructions or their validity.
 
  • #124
Nova said:
.......Once the husband took up his allegedly dirty scissors, he had already violated the wife's instructions. Perhaps a case could be made that at that point, the husband had a different obligation and should have called 911. This argument would be particularly ripe if it can be shown that his action contributed in any way to her eventual death. (I mean the overt action with the scissors, not his inaction otherwise.)

Still, the woman's inability to consent after beginning labor doesn't change her instructions or their validity.....
Thanks for this informative post, Nova.

Another piece of the puzzle which we don't know and may never know is what the husband and wife discussed prior regarding their homebirth plans. People I know who have had home births usually have discussed with some specificity what they are and aren't comfortable with.

They both may have decided that it was fine to do an episiotomy prior to labor beginning. If this is the case, her instructions would not have been violated when he cut her with the scissors.
 
  • #125
southcitymom said:
Thanks for this informative post, Nova.

Another piece of the puzzle which we don't know and may never know is what the husband and wife discussed prior regarding their homebirth plans. People I know who have had home births usually have discussed with some specificity what they are and aren't comfortable with.

They both may have decided that it was fine to do an episiotomy prior to labor beginning. If this is the case, her instructions would not have been violated when he cut her with the scissors.
I agree with you about Nova's post----very informative. Thanks, Nova.

RE: The episiotomy :eek: :eek: I cannot even begin to IMAGINE getting an episiotomy in an unsterile environment, by the hands of a non-physician or midwife. I know it's possible she consented to that beforehand----we don't know. I'm just speaking from a personal stance----there is NO WAY I could do that under any cirumstances---call me :chicken: , and I cannot imagine any woman saying "OK, find something around here to cut my vagina open". Again, she very well could have.
 
  • #126
Amraann said:
Is it even legal to deliver a baby Deliberately when that could be avoided without at least midwife license?
Like practicing medicine without a license?
It is totally legal to have UC, Unassisted Childbirth, without medical or midwifery intervention. The only requirement is to have the birth certificate done afterwards. Sometimes you just have to have id, proof of pregnancy and residency stated. Sometimes the baby has to see a doctor afterwards, but that's more city to city than state to state laws.

It is not neglect. After all, woman have been doing this every day since time out of mind. In some countries it's the only way. We have been told it's wrong by doctors. Of course they think it's wrong. But there is a whole movement out there that says doctors are wrong.

I don't think they were prepared. There is lots to buy and do before birth. No way should they have had dirty scissors there. You can buy kits with sterile instruments. As well as a medical plan in case things don't go right. But if they think medical intervention is wrong this wouldn't have helped them.

I gave birth at home 4 times. I did have a midwife there though. I'm not capable of doing it alone and I know that.
 
  • #127
Thanks, guys, but I must point out that I am neither a doctor nor a lawyer. I did look up the precedents I cited, but I may be completely wrong in how they would apply.

And I'd like to add that I am as horrified by this case as anybody is. I'm just saying it may not be easy to charge the husband with anything.
 
  • #128
BhamMama said:
It is totally legal to have UC, Unassisted Childbirth, without medical or midwifery intervention. The only requirement is to have the birth certificate done afterwards. Sometimes you just have to have id, proof of pregnancy and residency stated. Sometimes the baby has to see a doctor afterwards, but that's more city to city than state to state laws.

It is not neglect. After all, woman have been doing this every day since time out of mind. In some countries it's the only way. We have been told it's wrong by doctors. Of course they think it's wrong. But there is a whole movement out there that says doctors are wrong.

I don't think they were prepared. There is lots to buy and do before birth. No way should they have had dirty scissors there. You can buy kits with sterile instruments. As well as a medical plan in case things don't go right. But if they think medical intervention is wrong this wouldn't have helped them.

I gave birth at home 4 times. I did have a midwife there though. I'm not capable of doing it alone and I know that.

Now here's a poster who isn't talking through her hat (like I do).

I wonder about the "dirty" scissors report. Unless he just panicked and grabbed the nearest tool, I wonder whether the "dirty" part isn't somebody's assumption.
 
  • #129
julianne said:
I agree with you about Nova's post----very informative. Thanks, Nova.

RE: The episiotomy :eek: :eek: I cannot even begin to IMAGINE getting an episiotomy in an unsterile environment, by the hands of a non-physician or midwife. I know it's possible she consented to that beforehand----we don't know. I'm just speaking from a personal stance----there is NO WAY I could do that under any cirumstances---call me :chicken: , and I cannot imagine any woman saying "OK, find something around here to cut my vagina open". Again, she very well could have.
I am with you in that I don't "get" it! Personally I can't imagine any of the decisions this woman made because they are so different from what I would have done. I am a total baby about pain - I was screaming for morphine and an epidural at 3 cm dilated.
 
  • #130
Nova said:
Now here's a poster who isn't talking through her hat (like I do).

I wonder about the "dirty" scissors report. Unless he just panicked and grabbed the nearest tool, I wonder whether the "dirty" part isn't somebody's assumption.
I find the "dirty scissors" sound bite to be inflammatory. Any scissors in anyone's home are dirty. If it's not from a sterile hospital environment, it's dirty. He may have just grabbed them at a point of desparation - I don't know.
 
  • #131
southcitymom said:
I find the "dirty scissors" sound bite to be inflammatory. Any scissors in anyone's home are dirty. If it's not from a sterile hospital environment, it's dirty. He may have just grabbed them at a point of desperation - I don't know.

Exactly my thinking. I'm not defending any of their decisions, but I doubt he went looking for the "dirty" pair.

(ETA: Hey, SCM! When are you going to come to your senses and move to Southern California, so you and I can be BFF in real life! You know you want to.)
 
  • #132
Nova said:
..... You know you want to.)
I do, Nova, I do! :blowkiss:
 
  • #133
i guess the husband believes his wife is a sinner anyway, and god didn't want her to live so he was punishing her and sending to her to hell.

or some other such medieval nonsense.
 
  • #134
I think dying during childbirth would be one of the worst, most painfull ways to die. I had proble,s with both my sons deliveries and if I had died during that time it would have been like being tortured to death.

And scissors? Why not burning the blade of a sharp Knife? Oh that's right, a religious zealot who is male thought of that. Who would cut into the birth canal with scissors? And not even pour boiling water over them or take a flame to them? And then let the wife sit dying after she already went a week with a dead baby in her? Are women cattle?
I think once this woman was sick and the baby was obviously dead since it wasn't birthed the husband had a responsibility to call for help.
 
  • #135
poco said:
How many of us would be dead right now if we didn't believe in doctors, etc. I know I would have been - I had an ectopic pregnancy in my early 30's - without medical intervention (surgery), I'd have been a goner......

Me too, I think at least three times in my life I would have died without medical intervention probably more. Cesarian Section, ectopic pregnancy and septicemia.

People used to die of very simple things just 100 years ago that we no longer die from now....like minor infections and strep throat...people used to die from infected teeth for gosh sakes and it was a long and painfull death. Women died in childbirth all the time...I myself almost died twice. Children died from illnesses that today are merely inconveniences. I doubt God wants us to die when there are treatments and medical care available to keep us healthy. Gosh just think how many people would be dead from high blood pressure and diabetes alone if not for medical treatments.

God gave us the means and the brains to save ourselves...I suspect he would want us to use it as long as we stay within the confines of right and wrong.

I can see that some people might refuse certain treatments because they considered them immoral in some way (say like things involving stem cells, or cloning or using animal organs, abortion etc. those understandably might offend those with certain belief systems) ....but what is immoral or sinful about surgery, IVs, transfusions, antibiotics or simple antiseptics? It's not like any wrongdoing is committed to perform these life saving techniques....at least not any that I am aware of.
 
  • #136
southcitymom said:
I do, Nova, I do! :blowkiss:

California was officially full on October 10, 1985 (the day I arrived).

But I'm sure we would make an exception in your case. Strap granny and the rocking chair in the back of the truck and head West...
 
  • #137
Misty Horner's Husband No Longer With Police
LEE'S SUMMIT, Mo. -- Caleb Horner is no longer employed by the Lee's Summit Police Department, KMBC reported Monday.

Horner's wife, Misty, died in January 2007, a month after the couple's child died during birth. The baby was delivered stillborn in the couple's home.
more at link...
http://www.kmbc.com/news/16688600/detail.html

Scroll down to previous stories to see that he will not face charges. :(
 
  • #138
Misty Horner's Husband No Longer With Police
LEE'S SUMMIT, Mo. -- Caleb Horner is no longer employed by the Lee's Summit Police Department, KMBC reported Monday.

Horner's wife, Misty, died in January 2007, a month after the couple's child died during birth. The baby was delivered stillborn in the couple's home.
more at link...
http://www.kmbc.com/news/16688600/detail.html

Scroll down to previous stories to see that he will not face charges. :(

Thank you so much for this update, rccook.

I am very glad to know the husband will not be charged with a crime.
 
  • #139
A story like this is a slap in the face to all the women and babies who died during childbirth before cleanliness, surgery, and proper prenatal care were either accepted by doctors or figured out.
 
  • #140
Misty Horner's Husband No Longer With Police
LEE'S SUMMIT, Mo. -- Caleb Horner is no longer employed by the Lee's Summit Police Department, KMBC reported Monday.

Horner's wife, Misty, died in January 2007, a month after the couple's child died during birth. The baby was delivered stillborn in the couple's home.
more at link...
http://www.kmbc.com/news/16688600/detail.html

Scroll down to previous stories to see that he will not face charges. :(

I'm glad he is no longer a police officer as they sometimes are called upon to act in medical emergencies, and his judgement (dirty scissors) is suspect, no matter what his religious beliefs may be.
 

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