MO - Misty Horner & baby die in home birth, Lees Summit, 8 Dec 2006

[poco]

Hello dear poco, and how are you?


I do not understand when people choose to believe it is somehow, "not right" to receive medical intervention--especially when it is the only way a life may be saved. I believe in a very different God. Generally, I respect other people's belief's however different they are from mine; but, not in a case like this.

To me, this is another example of twisted thinking, and this time it is in the name of religion. It is such a shame. The tiny newborn baby never had a choice--maybe she could have been saved. Now she will never walk this earth because of a bad decision made by her parents.

Lion

YOu never did tell me or I never found it - what town in Texas are you in? I use to live in Round Rock (did we have this conversation before).

Anyway, I'm with you on the God, thing, and I stay away from the religious threads on this forum, but I, too, believe that medical intervention is a necessity in some cases - to deny that because of a religious believe is absurd!

 

[LionRun]

Well we do live in a small world don't we? I am just North West of Austin, so Round Rock is right next door.

Lion

 

[Floh]

The religion: what i found out. if true, it makes my blood boil even more:

The husband, Caleb Horner a Lee's Summit Police officer for 9yrs and his wife Misty Horner, were part of a religion allegedly started by his brother John Horner who believe in old time faith healing. Misty Horner's family thinks that this is a cult and that their daughter wanted so badly to be close to god that she was mislead and brainwashed by the religion of John Horner. He has written a book saying "those who buy drugs, have surgery, or get a doctor's advice are doing so because they reject Jesus as a healer."

http://30framesasecond.blogspot.com/2007/01/getting-close-to-god-can-be-deadly.html

i'm off to search for more about John Horner and his little book! :furious:

Quoting myself so people know what i'm blathering on about:

I can't find anything about John Horner. nor anything about the title of his book or, come to that, the name of the religion which he apparently started.

 

[Pandora]

As a cop, surely Caleb Horner could be charged w/ depraved indifference to life if nothing else.

 

[southcitymom]

The reason I think they should be charged with murder, is because I believe they allowed her to die. They did nothing for her. Yes, it sounds like she went along with this religion, but at the point where she was obviously dying, something should have been done (actually, long before that, IMO).

So if my hubby has a heart attack, and I just let him die in front of me, and make no effort to get help, then I essentially killed him. Yes, he may have died anyway, but I allowed it to happen. That's murder, IMO.

People can believe in whatever they want...they can pray to the God of Saran Wrap for all I care, but when you allow another human being to die, in the name of religion...that's murder. At least in my book.

It will be interesting to see what happens in this case. I am always amazed how people can get hooked into these nutty beliefs. IMO, religion is used too much for personal freedom choices. In this case, it cost this woman her life, and the life of the baby. She made a bad choice going along with this religion...but they made a criminal choice when they allowed her to linger for weeks and then die. They knew she was dying. But they don't believe in medical intervention.

We can send Jack Kevorkian to prison for aiding people with suicides, but this guy and his followers can get off because this is their religion?

Maybe I am missing something here, but if I have a heart attack and tell my husband I do not want him to seek treatment on my behalf, my husband should NOT be guilty of anything.

It is MY perogative to let myself die - to refuse medical attention. Whether the majority of people agree with that or not, people have that right. This woman had that right.

If someone tells you they don't want medical attention and you honor that, HOW is that depraved indifference to life? I'm just not seeing it.

 

[LionRun]

As a cop, surely Caleb Horner could be charged w/ depraved indifference to life if nothing else.

I think I read that he had been a police dispatcher for 9 years. What a conflict of interests for him. Last I heard the police were all for getting people medical help when needed. I wonder how that worked for him.

A religion that does not allow it's people to receive medical care seems, "harmful cultish" to me.

Lion

 

[southcitymom]

I think I read that he had been a police dispatcher for 9 years. What a conflict of interests for him. Last I heard the police were all for getting people medical help when needed. I wonder how that worked for him.

A religion that does not allow it's people to receive medical care seems, "harmful cultish" to me.

Lion

While a religion that does not allow people to receive medical care seems harmful and cultish to a great many, it's an individual choice and a freedom we have here to believe and have total faith that our bodies can be healed without medical attention and to further believe that even if our bodies cannot be healed without medical attention, who cares - we are NOT our bodies.

 

[GlitchWizard]

The religons I am familiar with (such as Christian Science) that don't agree with medical intervention do not forbid it. They just say it's not necessary. Must be a cult, or something weird that would actually say you can't go see a doctor.

 

[luvbeaches]

Quoting myself so people know what i'm blathering on about:

I can't find anything about John Horner. nor anything about the title of his book or, come to that, the name of the religion which he apparently started.

I watched the interview with her mom and dad last night, and they didn't mention the name of the book or the religion (they did on an earlier broadcast, but I don't remember what the name was). It was different...nothing I'd heard of before.

I did hear the mom say that the baby was "in there" dead for two days. I don't know if she meant that the baby died while still in the womb or they had the deceased baby in the home for two days.

The family is pushing for criminal charges, and I don't blame them. There is no reason this woman and her baby shouldn't be alive. They allowed both to die. And they both suffered a terrible death...drawn out for days, and in Misty's case it was weeks.

I checked the morning paper, and there was nothing new in it about this. Everyone around here is talking about this. I don't think it's just going to go away.

Freedom of choice when it comes to choosing a religion is one thing, allowing a baby and mother to die because of your religion is another...

 

[luvbeaches]

Maybe I am missing something here, but if I have a heart attack and tell my husband I do not want him to seek treatment on my behalf, my husband should NOT be guilty of anything.

It is MY perogative to let myself die - to refuse medical attention. Whether the majority of people agree with that or not, people have that right. This woman had that right.

If someone tells you they don't want medical attention and you honor that, HOW is that depraved indifference to life? I'm just not seeing it.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

It may be your perogative to let yourself die, but you don't have that right when it comes to a child (or IMO, someone else). If your child is ill, and you just let it die...then you could face criminal charges, and should, IMO.

He killed her, it's that simple. Maybe she didn't want medical treatment, but what about the baby? That baby can't speak for itself, and because of her freak dad and his cult family and followers, she is dead. She never had a chance at life....and it is her father's fault.

If he should be charged with anything, it's allowing the baby to die. That may be where they get him. We've all seen news stories where parents are stripped of their parental rights when they do things that are going to harm or kill their child.

This is no different than those women who give birth to a baby in a toilet, and let them die. They face murder charges, and so should this man. He killed his child. Maybe the wife went along willingly, but once she was gravely ill, it doesn't sound like she was in a state of mind to be making any decisions.

I'd be happy if this guy and his band of freaks were charged with murdering the baby. That's what they did.

And it will be interesting to see what happens with his job. I wonder how many people out there encountered this guy while in a situation where they needed medical attention? I wonder if they got it promptly? I wonder if his beliefs cloud his judgement with his job? I'll bet donuts to dollars that people come forward and sue the city and this guy (even if there is no justification for a lawsuit, people will still come forward).

 

[southcitymom]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

It may be your perogative to let yourself die, but you don't have that right when it comes to a child (or IMO, someone else). If your child is ill, and you just let it die...then you could face criminal charges, and should, IMO.

He killed her, it's that simple. Maybe she didn't want medical treatment, but what about the baby? That baby can't speak for itself, and because of her freak dad and his cult family and followers, she is dead. She never had a chance at life....and it is her father's fault.

If he should be charged with anything, it's allowing the baby to die. That may be where they get him. We've all seen news stories where parents are stripped of their parental rights when they do things that are going to harm or kill their child.

This is no different than those women who give birth to a baby in a toilet, and let them die. They face murder charges, and so should this man. He killed his child. Maybe the wife went along willingly, but once she was gravely ill, it doesn't sound like she was in a state of mind to be making any decisions.

I'd be happy if this guy and his band of freaks were charged with murdering the baby. That's what they did.

And it will be interesting to see what happens with his job. I wonder how many people out there encountered this guy while in a situation where they needed medical attention? I wonder if they got it promptly? I wonder if his beliefs cloud his judgement with his job? I'll bet donuts to dollars that people come forward and sue the city and this guy (even if there is no justification for a lawsuit, people will still come forward).

The article says the baby was stillborn. How is the husband responsible for that?

The mother was not a child. She made her decision. How is he responsible for that?

 

[southcitymom]

Apparently Misty joined in order to be closer to G_d.

Well, maybe she got her wish.

 

[luvbeaches]

The article says the baby was stillborn. How is the husband responsible for that?

The mother was not a child. She made her decision. How is he responsible for that?

They killed the baby. She made her diecision...but in doing this, she allowed the baby to die. As much as I think he allowed the wife to die, I suppose she's within her legal rights to let herself die, but not the baby.

This is where they might be charged. I found this...

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/...n=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

"It's clear, since the Terry Schiavo case, that adults have the right to decide whether or not they want to refuse medical treatment," attorney Durant Abernethy said. "Absolutely clear. What's not clear, at least to me yet, is can they refuse life saving treatment to a fetus, or a child. I believe there was an obligation, once Sydney was in crisis, for some intervention to avoid the fatal chain of events that happened once Sydney died, was left in there several days after she died, and the rest is just tragic. Just tragic."

If no charges are filed, the family was looking into filing a wrongful death lawsuit. Misty and daughter Sydney weren't the first associated with the Horner's religion to die. The family said it's time for that to stop.

If you think it's okay to let the baby die, that's your opinion. I don't. There was plenty of opportunity to get help, and they didn't. And the baby died. Then they left the baby inside her for two days, and then the mother eventually died. It's sickening. And I can't defend allowing the baby to die in any way. They are sick, misguided people. Someone needs to take a stand for the baby, and it sounds like that may happen.

It sounds to me like the baby died because they couldn't get her out...she was breech. Then they let her die. Had they went for medical help, the baby and mother would most likely be alive. But they'll never know because these people didn't do anything but sit around and watch them both die.

 

[Nova]

Surely we can agree that the baby is a different case than the mother. It doesn't seem clear from accounts whether the fetus could have been saved. That may be something for a court to decide.

 

[luvbeaches]

Surely we can agree that the baby is a different case than the mother. It doesn't seem clear from accounts whether the fetus could have been saved. That may be something for a court to decide.

As outraged as I've been over this...I suppose it was within Misty's rights as an adult to determine what happens to her, but the baby is different, as you said.

I still believe that once Misty was to the point where she couldn't make a decision for herself, she should have been taken to the nearest hospital. But long before that, when the baby was having troubles, they should have gotten help.

And it may be something for the court to decide. That's what the family is pushing for. I don't blame them.

 

[GlitchWizard]

We do not know the family dynamics. It may not have had anything to do with her religon as to whether or not she could have gotten medical attention. If she was married to a controlling man, it may be she felt she couldn't even ask for it.

 

[southcitymom]

Surely we can agree that the baby is a different case than the mother. It doesn't seem clear from accounts whether the fetus could have been saved. That may be something for a court to decide.

Yes, this is what I was trying get at. The mother is an adult and it is not clear at all from what I've read that the baby could have been saved.

I know a good many families who have given birth at home (both with and without attending midwives or medical personnel). With rare exception, these births have gone well for mother and father and child. Only one of my friends had a tragic outcome during her home birth, but it was an unavoidable thing.

 

[ljwf22]

I think I read that he had been a police dispatcher for 9 years. What a conflict of interests for him. Last I heard the police were all for getting people medical help when needed. I wonder how that worked for him.

A religion that does not allow it's people to receive medical care seems, "harmful cultish" to me.

Lion

I believe SHE was the dispatcher, he an officer.

 

[Nova]

Yes, this is what I was trying get at. The mother is an adult and it is not clear at all from what I've read that the baby could have been saved.

I know a good many families who have given birth at home (both with and without attending midwives or medical personnel). With rare exception, these births have gone well for mother and father and child. Only one of my friends had a tragic outcome during her home birth, but it was an unavoidable thing.

Don't get my partner started on home births! His then wife had to be rushed into surgery with their first child. Neither would have survived if they had been at home. (I know statistics show home birthing to be relatively safe, but don't try to tell him that.)

 

[Floh]

The reply from the blogger to my question as to the name of the religion is thus:

My World said...
according to the family the group doesn't have a name, other than they tell people they are christians.

http://30framesasecond.blogspot.com/2007/01/getting-close-to-god-can-be-deadly.html