MO - Misty Horner & baby die in home birth, Lees Summit, 8 Dec 2006

[Floh]

And for the father of this man to say they were "Methodists" is interesting. He sounds like he's not part of the "made-up" religion, or he's trying to make them sound normal.

That, i believe. :furious:

 

[Annie]

Gotta disagree with you on this one.

The husband did not IMO "let" his wife labor for six days. SHE made a choice. She was an intelligent adult who chose to exercise her FAITH. Nothing in this story suggests that the woman was forciblly denied medical care. Nothing in the story suggests the woman was stupid or that she merely was "going along with" the husband's will.

He cannot be prosecuted anymore than a Jehovah's Witness husband can be prosecuted if his wife dies after she refuses a blood transfusion.

You and I may not agree with faith healings, but as an adult, this woman was free to believe and to exercise that belief. There are many people who would rather die exercising faith in God than to live after denying that faith.

Where I disagree with you on this one is that I do not think seeking medical attention to save a life is denying faith in God. Even Luke in the Bible was a physician. One can have a strong faith in God and still go to a doctor. One does not rule out the other.

 

[julianne]

Where I disagree with you on this one is that I do not think seeking medical attention to save a life is denying faith in God. Even Luke in the Bible was a physician. One can have a strong faith in God and still go to a doctor. One does not rule out the other.

Annie, your post echoes what I feel yet have failed to put into words. You are absolutely correct. :clap:

 

[luvbeaches]

----------------------------They are Methodists? what a crock!! Misty I would sy had blood poisoning from the placenta..This boils me! No way are they Methodists!!

It is a crock...they aren't Methodists. I think the family is trying to minimize what happened to possibly make it sound like it was a home delivery gone bad, rather than a group of religious nuts refusing to seek medical help, which in the end, cause the death of Misty, and her baby. And if Misty's family knew about this made-up religion, you can bet his family did. After all, it was Caleb's brother John that started this little group and wrote the book mentioned below (in the news article I found)

In "If God Started A Church," a book written by John Horner, he writes, "to confess Jesus Christ as your personal healer automatically renounces all of the world's methods of healing: drugs, surgeries, exams, therapies, etc."

I am always stunned when I hear these stories. What in the world is wrong with people? Like lambs being led to the slaughter. They can't find their way...so they end up following some religious nut and his beliefs. And almost always, something tragic happens.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Sounds to me like this woman was controlled by her husband as She said Misty did decide for herself not to receive care, but said she had no problem going to the doctor before she got involved with Officer Horner. Seems like she only went along with it because it was drummed into her brain!

 

[luvbeaches]

That, i believe. :furious:

And if I was a Methodist, I'd be very unhappy that he's lumping these people in with that particular religion. I just think it's a smoke screen. I have a feeling they are just trying to downplay this strange religion and make it seem more like a home-delivery gone bad. Probably for legal purposes. If any charges are filed, it will probably have to do with the baby.

Caleb killed his wife and child. I don't know how he sleeps at night. And he'd be the very last person I'd want to see if I were in Lee's Summit and in need of medical attention. Although the Lee's Summit PD is quick to say that he always calls the ambulance (when needed). You sure have to wonder about this...I know I do.

 

[angelmom]

Gotta disagree with you on this one.

The husband did not IMO "let" his wife labor for six days. SHE made a choice. She was an intelligent adult who chose to exercise her FAITH. Nothing in this story suggests that the woman was forciblly denied medical care. Nothing in the story suggests the woman was stupid or that she merely was "going along with" the husband's will.

He cannot be prosecuted anymore than a Jehovah's Witness husband can be prosecuted if his wife dies after she refuses a blood transfusion.

You and I may not agree with faith healings, but as an adult, this woman was free to believe and to exercise that belief. There are many people who would rather die exercising faith in God than to live after denying that faith.

Who's going to tell if she did ask for a doctor? Her parents, whom he banished from her presence? His freaky co-believers (Methodist my @$$! :furious: )? And even if she did not want medical attention, they cannot make that choice for an infant. If the mother had lived and the baby had died, the mother should be charged as well. Unless they can prove that the baby was already dead a week before the delivery, this is a murder - no less so than someone who delivers a baby and abandons it. Passage through the birth canal does not make someone a human being.

I believe that the baby's time of death very well might be able to be proven. I know a few people who have had a stillbirth, and the condition of the baby's body has made it possible to determine how long the baby was dead in the womb. Not within hours, but certainly within days.

 

[luvbeaches]

Sounds to me like this woman was controlled by her husband as She said Misty did decide for herself not to receive care, but said she had no problem going to the doctor before she got involved with Officer Horner. Seems like she only went along with it because it was drummed into her brain!

Well, she wouldn't be the first person to fall for something like this. I also have to wonder that if she did ask for help, would they have gotten her the help she needed? I doubt it.

For whatever reason, she went along with his beliefs. I always hate to see people sucked into things like this. It's the baby that didn't have a chance or a say. And that baby is afforded certain protections. It will be interesting to see what the ME has to say about the death of the baby, and if any charges will be filed against Caleb for child endangerment, or murder.

I personally feel he killed them both. But the laws of the land may not agree with me.

 

[kgeaux]

Where I disagree with you on this one is that I do not think seeking medical attention to save a life is denying faith in God. Even Luke in the Bible was a physician. One can have a strong faith in God and still go to a doctor. One does not rule out the other.

No, no, Annie! I didn't say that I believe seeking medical attention is denying faith in God. That is not my belief system. But it WAS the woman's. And she obviously did believe that one ruled out the other. She was willing to suffer and die to prove her faith in that belief.

Who's going to tell if she did ask for a doctor? Her parents, whom he banished from her presence? His freaky co-believers (Methodist my @$$! :furious: )? And even if she did not want medical attention, they cannot make that choice for an infant. If the mother had lived and the baby had died, the mother should be charged as well. Unless they can prove that the baby was already dead a week before the delivery, this is a murder - no less so than someone who delivers a baby and abandons it. Passage through the birth canal does not make someone a human being.

I believe that the baby's time of death very well might be able to be proven. I know a few people who have had a stillbirth, and the condition of the baby's body has made it possible to determine how long the baby was dead in the womb. Not within hours, but certainly within days.

By the same token, law enforcement would have a very, very difficult if not impossible time attempting to prove that she did ask for help and was denied it. She was a member of the church, a believer, and that would tend to support the husband's claim that she did not wish to seek medical attention.


I know all of this can be very hard to understand if you don't know anyone with these types of belief systems. Snake handling is something not many of us would agree with, but the people who practice it truly believe God has ordained them to do so.

I have a very dear friend, a practicing attorney for goodness sake, who truly believes with all of her heart that if a woman in labor has confessed all of her sins and nothing stands between her and God, then she will have a completely pain free labor and delivery. My friend had a child a few years back and (surprise!) it hurt like hell. The husband called the elders of the church and they gathered around her bed urging her to confess! confess! confess! and she did--poor girl confessed to sins she never even dreamed of commiting. To this day she agonizes over that labor and delivery and wonders what "separated" her from God. You could talk to her all day long, and you would NEVER change her mind about this belief because to her, her entire salvation and eternal life is wrapped up in it.....she would no sooner deny God himself than to deny that belief! You may think she is strange indeed, but there is an entire CHURCH of people, and not a little church either, who believe the same exact thing.

 

[luvbeaches]

No, no, Annie! I didn't say that I believe seeking medical attention is denying faith in God. That is not my belief system. But it WAS the woman's. And she obviously did believe that one ruled out the other. She was willing to suffer and die to prove her faith in that belief.

Maybe she can choose to die, but the baby had no say in it. She can suffer and die if she wants...but to allow the child to die, is murder.

And we don't know that's what she wanted. She was surrounded by other "believers." Her family was not allowed inside the home. Now she could have very well not wanted them there...I don't know...but the baby has rights. And the baby was murdered, at least IMO.

Like the family that's been mentioned lately (in our news). They failed to take their daughter to a doctor, and now she is paralized. They've been charged with felony child endangerment. Even if they said their religion forbided medical assistance, it wouldn't matter. Minors are protected under the law. And now these people are probably both be going to prison...where they belong.

And this is no different with Caleb. If he, and even his wife, went along with this, then they are both guilty of child endangerment...which led to the death of the baby. At this point, we'll probably never know if Misty did or didn't want help. It's seems his family is going into "CYA" mode.

 

[southcitymom]

Maybe she can choose to die, but the baby had no say in it. She can suffer and die if she wants...but to allow the child to die, is murder.....

But we don't know that anyone allowed the child to die. The child could have been dead before labor even started. How can we accuse this man of murder without having this information? That seems hasty to me.

 

[luvbeaches]

But we don't know that anyone allowed the child to die. The child could have been dead before labor even started. How can we accuse this man of murder without having this information? That seems hasty to me.

Do you really think these people made any effort to save the baby? Or the mother for that matter? They allowed the dead baby to stay inside the mother for days, then the mother lingered for weeks (without delivering the placenta), and finally died herself.

There's no way in my books this is anything but murder.

I know things go can go wrong with home-deliveries. But once there is a complication (and the baby being breech and not coming out, is a complication), they get the mother to a hospital. There was no doctor, nurse, or a mid-wife present. Just a bunch of kooky religious nuts.

I don't think there's anything hasty about my decision. This all happened over weeks, and because of their decisions, the woman and her baby died. I hope they toss this guy in jail.

Children have rights. This child had no say in what happened. And that's child endangerment which let to the death of the baby...IMO. If these fruitloops want to deny themselves medical treatment in the name of their God, whatever, but the child was an innocent victim.

Have these religious nuts so lost their way in life that they don't care about their children? The kids are the victims. And this baby died because her dad (and maybe the mom, if she went along with this) is not playing with a full deck. And he should face charges.

What if your religion told you that you shouldn't eat...so you starved yourself. Does that give you the right to starve your child? No, it doesn't. So neither does it give them the right to allow this baby to die.

I will never in a million years understand these crazy people and how they push so many of their ignorant beliefs and the things they do on "God." This was God's will...the is what God would want. Right. These people are lost. And sadly, it's their children and babies, that either die, or suffer. I pity any child born into families like this. I really do. But in a way, I do feel for all these people...because they are so terribly lost. Something is not right in their minds.

It's like Fred Phelps and his hateful bunch of family. There was an article in the paper today about him. He has 13 children, I believe, and even the little ones spew this hate.

Why do these people follow these teachings? Be it nutty Fred Phelps, or Caleb's nutty brother? Why are these people so weak? I don't get it. It's foreign to me. Let's catch the next space ship to Oz. Drink the punch. Marry your 13-year old cousins (all of them). These people have gone round the bend. But it's the kids that suffer, and it's the baby that died that makes me sad. And if Misty was wanting help, and didn't get it, then that was also murder.

And now we have Caleb and his John's dad saying they were Methodist. Yeah, right. It seems to me that the dad recogonizes something is wrong with this group, otherwise why try to hide it?

 

[Floh]

Maybe she can choose to die, but the baby had no say in it. She can suffer and die if she wants...but to allow the child to die, is murder.

And we don't know that's what she wanted. She was surrounded by other "believers." Her family was not allowed inside the home. Now she could have very well not wanted them there...I don't know...but the baby has rights. And the baby was murdered, at least IMO.

Like the family that's been mentioned lately (in our news). They failed to take their daughter to a doctor, and now she is paralized. They've been charged with felony child endangerment. Even if they said their religion forbided medical assistance, it wouldn't matter. Minors are protected under the law. And now these people are probably both be going to prison...where they belong.

And this is no different with Caleb. If he, and even his wife, went along with this, then they are both guilty of child endangerment...which led to the death of the baby. At this point, we'll probably never know if Misty did or didn't want help. It's seems his family is going into "CYA" mode.

Apparently her best friend, Tina Moore, was there during the labour (first part of the labour), so she would shout long and hard if Misty asked for medical assistance, i believe.


i'm appalled at the senseless loss of life all round.

i don't know if klapping Caleb in jail would be of public interest/use — although it may halt him in the future should he get another woman to buy into his 'lifestyle'.

 

[Annie]

People intervene all the time when someone is trying to commit suicide. Many of these people really want to die yet they are rescued off ledges, pulled out of water, and stomachs are pumped. At least some of them later realize they made a mistake and are glad they were rescued. Probably not all. I see this as either suicide by religion or murder by religion, depending on whether she went along with it or was forced into by those around her. I know she didn't die an easy death and those around her who refused to get her some help have a lot to live with.

 

[mssheila]

I believe SHE was the dispatcher, he an officer.

That is what I read. She was the dispatcher, he was the police officer. She left her job a year before this happened, he was/is (?) still a police officer.

Some have been asking the question about how he can be a cop, but not believe in medical intervention. I don't see the conflict here. He believed that for himself, his wife believed that for herself.. they both believed that for their baby. What he does as a police officer is another matter entirely. If he had complaints against him for not offering/assisting/enabling people to get medical help, that would be one thing- but I sure haven't heard that.

I just don't see where the correlation can be made that he would be unable to do his job (FOR OTHERS) and him believing that medical intervention was not appropriate for HIMSELF or his baby.. People can have "religious" beliefs for themselves and not allow it to interfere with their jobs. She, as a dispatcher, had a primary responsibility to summon an ambulance every day to people.. I haven't heard that she was unable to do her job in any way either.

 

[luvbeaches]

Apparently her best friend, Tina Moore, was there during the labour (first part of the labour), so she would shout long and hard if Misty asked for medical assistance, i believe.


i'm appalled at the senseless loss of life all round.

i don't know if klapping Caleb in jail would be of public interest/use — although it may halt him in the future should he get another woman to buy into his 'lifestyle'.

Maybe if Tina would have been there through the whole ordeal, she would be able to shed light if Misty had wanted medical assistance...but I guess we'll never know. But I do agree...if while she was there, Misty was asking for help, I do think that Tina would be telling us the media this.

Sadly, I think Caleb will probably find another gal willing to go along with this sort of thing. There are a lot of lost souls out there...just searching for themselves.

If this had happened over the course of hours, or if they'd gotten help, and then they both died, it would be a bit different. But they didn't. There's not a chance on earth that a doctor would have allowed her to labor for a week with a baby in the breech position (and then finally do an episomity with a pair of dirty scissors), and then allowing the deceased baby to stay inside her for another couple of days. Nor would a doctor have allowed her to linger like that...with the placenta still intact. Geez...they did everything right in order to kill both the baby and the mother.

It certainly is a senseless loss of life all around.

 

[luvbeaches]

People intervene all the time when someone is trying to commit suicide. Many of these people really want to die yet they are rescued off ledges, pulled out of water, and stomachs are pumped. At least some of them later realize they made a mistake and are glad they were rescued. Probably not all. I see this as either suicide by religion or murder by religion, depending on whether she went along with it or was forced into by those around her. I know she didn't die an easy death and those around her who refused to get her some help have a lot to live with.

Yes, people do intervene all the time. But these people "in the name of their religion" did nothing. Just a sad thing, or criminal? And you are so right...many of these people are glad they are rescued...and probably some aren't...and go out and do end up killing themselves.

I have a feeling that these people that were around her will somehow shrug off any responsibilty in the name of their "God." It was, afterall, God's will...at least according to their made-up religion. It will be interesting to see where their rights to believe in what they want...end...and the life of the unborn baby begin.

She had no say. And what a sweet little baby. It was hard looking at her picture knowing that none of this had to happen.

It's just too bad these people were able to have children. They can do what they want to themselves...I suppose it's their right...but the poor little baby didn't stand a chance.

What nutballs.

 

[Pandora]

One sentence from article at link:
"The couple's Methodist church is still asking for prayers for the couple."

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/kshb/nw_local_news/article/0,1925,KSHB_9424_5272368,00.html

 

[southcitymom]

Do you really think these people made any effort to save the baby? Or the mother for that matter? They allowed the dead baby to stay inside the mother for days, then the mother lingered for weeks (without delivering the placenta), and finally died herself......

Of course I think they made what they considered to be appropriate efforts to save the child and the mother. Those efforts probably involved prayer and that may be seen as silly by many folks.

Do I think this couple got pregnant and then planned to have their childbirth end in two deaths? No. I don't. The bottom line is that we don't know if the baby's life could have been saved. Until we know this, I do not think it is fair to call the father a murderer. There's NO evidence to support that contention.

The decision for the dead baby to stay in the mother, thereby resulting in her slow, agonizing death, was the mother's decision and I accept it without question.

 

[luvbeaches]

I just don't see where the correlation can be made that he would be unable to do his job (FOR OTHERS) and him believing that medical intervention was not appropriate for HIMSELF or his baby.. People can have "religious" beliefs for themselves and not allow it to interfere with their jobs. She, as a dispatcher, had a primary responsibility to summon an ambulance every day to people.. I haven't heard that she was unable to do her job in any way either.

Personally, I don't think of it so much as being able to or not being able to do their job because of his religion...but more how competent is he. Any man that would allow his wife to linger like this, and his child to die, isn't someone I really want to cross paths with...especially if I were in need of medical treatment.

And it isn't just him. There are a lot of people in this country that have some mighty odd beliefs and I wouldn't want them anywhere near me in my time of need. If his judgement is this clouded when it comes to his wife...ughhh...I just hate to even think about him being a cop.

It would be like having OJ as lead Detective on the LAPD. Or Jim Jones in charge of beverages at the Boy Scout Jamboree. Or the guy from Heaven's Gate in charge of transportation for the state of California. All these people are nuts, and killed others.

I'd never in a million years want to look up and see any of these people at a car crash, hoping they'd call for help. Caleb also falls into this group. He's not dealing with a full deck, IMO.