MO MO - St Louis, BlkFem 8-11, 54UFMO, in abandoned bldg, Feb'83

Status
Not open for further replies.
Just want to apologize to anyone offended by the large photo upthread i posted of the hands.
Thinking that the people who may recognize the hands, or even the lines on them, might not be inclined to click on a thumbnail for a closer, clearer look.
This girl has only her dna which cannot readily be " seen " and hands that can " speak " asking someone to remember them.
 
Were her hands tied before or after death? Can that be determined?
 
it was sad to see but I know why you posted it

Just want to apologize to anyone offended by the large photo upthread i posted of the hands.
Thinking that the people who may recognize the hands, or even the lines on them, might not be inclined to click on a thumbnail for a closer, clearer look.
This girl has only her dna which cannot readily be " seen " and hands that can " speak " asking someone to remember them.
 
I'm terrible with knots.
Does anyone know if this is some sort of haphazard tying/knotting job or is it some elaborate knot, like a sailor would use?
Also, would this be the type of rope used for maritime/water recreation purposes, like one would find at a public pool holding a line of buoys to mark off swim areas?

I'm not seeing a knot; looks like they wrapped her wrists until there wasn't much rope left.

That's exactly what it looks like to me; rope used when there is water such as swimming or boating.
 
I'm not seeing a knot; looks like they wrapped her wrists until there wasn't much rope left.

That's exactly what it looks like to me; rope used when there is water such as swimming or boating.
That type of rope is sold in places like Lowes in large amounts; they may have just gone to a hardware store and bought sturdy looking rope
 
I'm terrible with knots.
Does anyone know if this is some sort of haphazard tying/knotting job or is it some elaborate knot, like a sailor would use?
Also, would this be the type of rope used for maritime/water recreation purposes, like one would find at a public pool holding a line of buoys to mark off swim areas?

Doesn't look like any knots were used; the restrain was by friction alone, accomplished by wrapping the rope around the wrists so many times.
 
That type of rope is sold in places like Lowes in large amounts; they may have just gone to a hardware store and bought sturdy looking rope

1983 it probably came from a hardware store or whatever brick and mortar was nearby like Caldor
 
1983 it probably came from a hardware store or whatever brick and mortar was nearby like Caldor

If perp bought the rope prior to the murder, might that suggest it was planned in advance and if so, the dumping spot already been chosen?
If so, was the perp familiar with that spot and the victim?
Wondering if the girl was from a different state, might the perp have kept her for some time before killing her, possibly meaning the girl went missing from an entirely different month/year ? speculation.
 
If perp bought the rope prior to the murder, might that suggest it was planned in advance and if so, the dumping spot already been chosen?
If so, was the perp familiar with that spot and the victim?
Wondering if the girl was from a different state, might the perp have kept her for some time before killing her, possibly meaning the girl went missing from an entirely different month/year ? speculation.

She was not from there according to isotopes which are on her doe net page

Full Anthropology exam and isotope analysis completed by NCMEC and the Smithsonian. Advanced forensic testing of her bones has also suggested that the female was not originally from the local St. Louis area but possibly spent most of her childhood in the following states: Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Indiana, and West Virginia.
Additional tests showed that the victim may have also been from the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Texas, Louisiana and Tennessee.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/54ufmo.html
 
She was not from there according to isotopes which are on her doe net page



http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/54ufmo.html

Thanks, what i was trying to figure out was, if the perp was familiar with the dump site, suggesting he is from that area, but procured the girl from a different State, did that mean he traveled back with her to St Louis?
If so, was she living with him for some time before her death?
Could S L Doe be new to the S L area, possibly with a mother also murdered, explaining why she may not yet be identified?
speculation.
 
the girl was in a good condition prior to her death. No sign of longtime abuse. Her nails were polished red for instance so it's unlikely she was kept hostage for a long time. probably she came from a family that cared for her. I always speculated wether her mother died and she went out of state to relatives or to other custudians that killed her shortly after she arrived to Missouri. police suspected that she was a victim of a serial killer called Vernon brown but it has never been proven. I'm not sure but I'm 100 that her killer lived or worked in the neighbourhood since its unlikely anyone unfamiliar with that abandoned house would have dumped her there. the neighbourhood was not exactly I'm the centre of St Louis.
 
the girl was in a good condition prior to her death. No sign of longtime abuse. Her nails were polished red for instance so it's unlikely she was kept hostage for a long time. probably she came from a family that cared for her. I always speculated wether her mother died and she went out of state to relatives or to other custudians that killed her shortly after she arrived to Missouri. police suspected that she was a victim of a serial killer called Vernon brown but it has never been proven. I'm not sure but I'm 100 that her killer lived or worked in the neighbourhood since its unlikely anyone unfamiliar with that abandoned house would have dumped her there. the neighbourhood was not exactly I'm the centre of St Louis.

I agree I don't think that someone who wasn't familiar to the neighborhood would even know that the building was abandoned unless it was visually obvious to be abandoned. But even then I don't think that the killer would have left her body there without being sure that it was abandoned.
 
the girl was in a good condition prior to her death. No sign of longtime abuse. Her nails were polished red for instance so it's unlikely she was kept hostage for a long time. probably she came from a family that cared for her. I always speculated wether her mother died and she went out of state to relatives or to other custudians that killed her shortly after she arrived to Missouri. police suspected that she was a victim of a serial killer called Vernon brown but it has never been proven. I'm not sure but I'm 100 that her killer lived or worked in the neighbourhood since its unlikely anyone unfamiliar with that abandoned house would have dumped her there. the neighbourhood was not exactly I'm the centre of St Louis.

Easy to see why Vernon Brown could be the killer, although it does not seem that he has ever taken the head of a victim, imo.
Curious though about the person, named "Jazz" that he lovingly referenced just prior to his execution. Apparently it is not known who that person might be, wondering if maybe, just maybe that name is somehow connected to SL Doe?

In one link i read it was speculated that the girl's nail polish might also have been pink and purple and that her sweater looked new, did she spruce up for a Valentine's Day party?
speculation, imo.

http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b1/brown-vernon.htm
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Jane_Doe

[/URL]
 
I agree I don't think that someone who wasn't familiar to the neighborhood would even know that the building was abandoned unless it was visually obvious to be abandoned. But even then I don't think that the killer would have left her body there without being sure that it was abandoned.
Generally this is true but in the City of st
Louis there are many buildings that are without a doubt abandoned and very obviously so; no Windows, no door etc.
 
Even though this child was wearing nail polish, is it possible that she was a Muslim, possibly covered and not necessarily in the usual educational institutions, thus making her identity difficult to establish?
speculation.
 
Even though this child was wearing nail polish, is it possible that she was a Muslim, possibly covered and not necessarily in the usual educational institutions, thus making her identity difficult to establish?
speculation.
I would think this would be pretty unlikely. One of the reasons she isn't ID'd yet I would think would be no face
 
It's been eight years since one of the most baffling cases in the annals of the St. Louis Police Department began, and the mystery remains.

On that cold, crisp, clear day of Feb. 28, 1983, two men looking for a piece of metal to rig a broken drive train on their car made a grisly discovery. While rummaging through a vacant apartment house at 5635 Clemens Avenue in the Cabanne neighborhood, they found the body of a girl on the boiler room floor.


The body was clad only in a dirty yellow sweater with the hands bound behind the back with a red and white nylon rope. The head was missing.

An autopsy disclosed that the girl, who was black, was 8 to 11 years old and had been sexually assaulted. She had been killed elsewhere.

After eight years and countless hours of detective work, police still don't know the identity of the victim, much less who may have killed her.

''I don't suppose I'll ever forget that case,'' said Chief of Detectives Leroy J. Adkins, who was the commander of the homicide squad when the case began.

''It still bothers me,'' said Adkins. ''I guess I'm perplexed more than anything else because we've never identified her after all these years.

''Here you have a child, 8, 9, 10 years old and there's no relatives, parents, neighbors, schoolmates or friends who have reported her missing. Nobody has come forward to offer any information about her.

''What is most distressing is how a child that age can't belong to anybody.'
'

Adkins called the investigation ''one of most extensive, thorough, painstaking investigations in the history of the department.''

Homicide Sgt. Joe Burgoon has been the primary investigator in the case. He points to a file cabinet stuffed with information such as leads, lists, computer printouts of missing children and stacks of school rosters.

''We've even got information from psychics in there,'' he said.

In 1986, Burgoon sent a report to the FBI Academy in Quantico, Va., which runs a special program that analyzes unsolved killings throughout the country.

''The FBI could find nothing to compare to our case anywhere in the United States,'' Burgoon said. ''It's amazing.''

But Burgoon has not given up hope. ''Right now, I'm looking at an abduction case from Chicago,'' he said. ''A 7 1/2-year-old girl was reported abducted in January 1980, and she's never been found.''

Another homicide sergeant thinks that a man on death row in Missouri may be the killer of the girl, and the detective plans to question the man soon.

Dr. Mary Case, the medical examiner for St. Louis County and St. Charles County, remembers the ''Jane Doe'' case well because she was deputy chief medical examiner for St. Louis at the time.

''I remember there were more hours spent on that case than any other I can recall,'' she said.

''In this part of the country, for a child to be murdered like that and not identified is just so unbelievable.''

Adkins says, ''There are so many theories. The girl lived a secluded life. Her mother, or parents, were involved in the murder. The possibilities go on and on.

''She probably was from out of the state, though,'' he said. ''We checked school records around here very, very thoroughly.

''We conducted a nationwide search,'' Adkins said. ''We ran ads in every black newspaper and magazine in the country and corresponded with every state police agency.

Snipped, rbbm.From this post #4 by
anthrobones
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?37995-MO-St-Louis-BlkFem-Child-54UFMO-8-11-in-abandoned-bldg-Feb-83&p=1016786#post1016786


Anything is possible, imo. this does not appear to be a " usual " kind of child murder. The missing face of course makes identification very difficult, but that in itself must be a clue as it is apparently very rare in the US. for a child that young to be decapitated.
imo, speculation.
RBBM
 
Easy to see why Vernon Brown could be the killer, although it does not seem that he has ever taken the head of a victim, imo.
Curious though about the person, named "Jazz" that he lovingly referenced just prior to his execution. Apparently it is not known who that person might be, wondering if maybe, just maybe that name is somehow connected to SL Doe?

In one link i read it was speculated that the girl's nail polish might also have been pink and purple and that her sweater looked new, did she spruce up for a Valentine's Day party?
speculation, imo.

http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b1/brown-vernon.htm
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Jane_Doe

[/URL]

Wiki is only as good as the people entering the info. They linked to her NamUs and an article on NamUs but still put the wrong info

Wiki Examination
It was concluded that the victim was not killed at the location where she was discovered, as no traces of blood were found by the body.[5] The girl was also bound at the wrists with a red nylon cord and lying face down. Her head had been severed cleanly by a large blade, possibly a carving knife. She was between eight and eleven and was prepubescent, but had been raped.[6] She wore only a yellow, long sleeved V-Neck sweater and two layers of pink and purple nail polish.[7]

NamUs
Wearing two two coats of red fingernail polish. Approximate 61 - 70 lbs and 4 ft 10 inches tall. There were no scars, irregularities, deformities or other specific features that would give clues to her identity.

Article - Victim of beheading had been sexually assaulted

"The only evidence police have is a sweater the girl was wearing and a cord used to tie her hands behind her back. The sweater is a bright yellow V-neck with long sleeves. The manufacturers label is missing.

The nylon cord is red and white and heavy, similar to a ski rope or boat line"

The girl had 2 coats of nail polish on her fingers - both of them shades of red

9141
 
Wiki is only as good as the people entering the info. They linked to her NamUs and an article on NamUs but still put the wrong info

Wiki Examination


NamUs

Article - Victim of beheading had been sexually assaulted



9141

I edited the wiki from two layers of pink and purple nail polish to two coats of nail polish on her fingers - both of them shades of red
 
The difference between two shades of red, and pink and purple, could be in the eye of the beholder. Not likely to be significant, however...

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
85
Guests online
474
Total visitors
559

Forum statistics

Threads
625,631
Messages
18,507,324
Members
240,827
Latest member
shaymac4413
Back
Top