More Than 1,000 Dead Birds Fall From Arkansas Sky

"What do you think is causing the wildlife die-offs?"

  • Magnetic pole shift

    Votes: 3 4.9%
  • HAARP

    Votes: 5 8.2%
  • BP oil spill

    Votes: 11 18.0%
  • Apocalypse

    Votes: 4 6.6%
  • Extreme cold weather

    Votes: 2 3.3%
  • Disease

    Votes: 3 4.9%
  • Fireworks

    Votes: 3 4.9%
  • Power lines

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Semi trucks

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Steely's fluffy brown emu

    Votes: 8 13.1%
  • Unknown phenomenon

    Votes: 13 21.3%
  • Gulf Oil Spill

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • goverment cover up

    Votes: 5 8.2%
  • Chemical pollution release

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • It's that Mayan thing, you know it is

    Votes: 2 3.3%

  • Total voters
    61
  • #321
It's a fact that placebos have been used in experimental settings for at least 100 years. They have to be used in order to create a control group against which the efficacy of the real drug can be compared.

And yes, scientists have long recognized a "placebo effect," in which patients taking placebos report some improvement. As a rule, however, the improvement reported falls far short of a cure.

There is no evidence and there is nothing in the source you provided that claims placebos have been used entirely instead of actual medicine.

(ETA an exception would be the Tuskegee Experiment, a particularly heinous chapter in American medicine in which African-Americans with syphilis were given nothing but placebos for years so doctors could track the long range progress of the STD. Even there however, the placebos were given to a relatively small control group, not the population (not even the black population) at large. Which in no way excuses the project, but it isn't evidence of planet-wide substitution of placebos for real medicine. If you think about it, it really isn't in Big Pharma's interest to do anything that might suggest widespread use of placebos would suffice.)

So I repeat: how do you form an opinion that flu shots--vaccines that have been around now for decades and in fact attract considerable publicity since they must be adjusted every year and their availability can vary widely--are all mere placebos. On what evidence do you base such an opinion?

The pharmaceutical companies are conducting the experiments, they are getting these medications approved by committing fraud. That's how they are being approved. So the flu shot could have loads of vitamin C and B vitamin and a antibiotic, which is what works anyway.

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=625176
 
  • #322
OK....maybe we are hijacking the thread with the flu shot debate??? Here is my take on it, and that is all I am going to say.

1. Flu shots are a crap shoot. They are produced every year with the best 'guesstimate' as to what the genetic make-up on the next year's flu is going to be. Bad news: The flu virus itself may or may not decide to cooperate. When you get a flu shot you are NOT guaranteed protection from getting the flu because the flu is in a constant state of mutation. Good news: The science behind making the flu shot is surprisingly pretty good, so if you are at high risk for dying from the flu, you should probably get it.

2. Placebos are used to evaluate drugs that are in a clinical trial - not for the flu shot. Any scientific trial of a new drug has to include a pacebo control to evaluate the well documented effect of patient's feeling better because "they took medicine". In other words, clinical trials of experimental drugs include people who get the real drug and people who get a placebo. No one knows who gets which one - not the patients, and not the investigators. Data is then evaluated to see if the "real drug" group did better than the "placebo" group. I think the term 'placebo" was possibly used for the concept of what happens with the flu shot - the "crap shoot" phenomenon. In other words, the flu shot is not guaranteed to work, and is not necessarily manufactured to work with the current strain of flu. The flu shot is therefore, NOT a placebo - it is a real vaccine prepared to protect people at risk of dying from the flu, but prepared with a highly scientific (but not always accurate) estimate of what the flu is going to look like in the next year.

3. Do I get the flu shot? Yes - because I get fired if I don't. Grrrrr..... I am healthy, active, and not at risk of dying from the flu, so I probably would NOT get it, but my employer mandates it. I actually take Vitamin D to protect myself and I give it to my family. There is some decent evidence that Vitamin D is important with protection from flu and many other illnesses. Some of the stuff you will find on the internet is crap related to 'the miracles of Vitamin D'. Vitamin D is dependent on the amount of sunlight exposure and this helps to explain the seasonal nature of flu. When we "go inside" because it is cold, our Vitamin D levels drop, we get sick.

OK... I don't think any of this has anything to do with why the birds fell out of the sky in Arkansas (and MANY other places). Back to the real "science" of what is going on.... which is still a mystery!!!
 
  • #323
OK....maybe we are hijacking the thread with the flu shot debate??? Here is my take on it, and that is all I am going to say.

1. Flu shots are a crap shoot. They are produced every year with the best 'guesstimate' as to what the genetic make-up on the next year's flu is going to be. Bad news: The flu virus itself may or may not decide to cooperate. When you get a flu shot you are NOT guaranteed protection from getting the flu because the flu is in a constant state of mutation. Good news: The science behind making the flu shot is surprisingly pretty good, so if you are at high risk for dying from the flu, you should probably get it.

2. Placebos are used to evaluate drugs that are in a clinical trial - not for the flu shot. Any scientific trial of a new drug has to include a pacebo control to evaluate the well documented effect of patient's feeling better because "they took medicine". In other words, clinical trials of experimental drugs include people who get the real drug and people who get a placebo. No one knows who gets which one - not the patients, and not the investigators. Data is then evaluated to see if the "real drug" group did better than the "placebo" group. I think the term 'placebo" was possibly used for the concept of what happens with the flu shot - the "crap shoot" phenomenon. In other words, the flu shot is not guaranteed to work, and is not necessarily manufactured to work with the current strain of flu. The flu shot is therefore, NOT a placebo - it is a real vaccine prepared to protect people at risk of dying from the flu, but prepared with a highly scientific (but not always accurate) estimate of what the flu is going to look like in the next year.

3. Do I get the flu shot? Yes - because I get fired if I don't. Grrrrr..... I am healthy, active, and not at risk of dying from the flu, so I probably would NOT get it, but my employer mandates it. I actually take Vitamin D to protect myself and I give it to my family. There is some decent evidence that Vitamin D is important with protection from flu and many other illnesses. Some of the stuff you will find on the internet is crap related to 'the miracles of Vitamin D'. Vitamin D is dependent on the amount of sunlight exposure and this helps to explain the seasonal nature of flu. When we "go inside" because it is cold, our Vitamin D levels drop, we get sick.

OK... I don't think any of this has anything to do with why the birds fell out of the sky in Arkansas (and MANY other places). Back to the real "science" of what is going on.... which is still a mystery!!!

Your right Reannan I think any more discussion about the flu and placebos should be on a new thread. I have said all I have to say about it. What I was trying to do was link the birds and dead fish and other animals that have died recently, with a flu that may start affecting humans. If it's going to happen we should start seeing something soon.
 
  • #324
Well it looks like the flu season has begun. I wonder what they will call it. It's not H1N1


[video=youtube;8v3NmvtJBCQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v3NmvtJBCQ[/video]
 
  • #325
  • #326
http://enewscourier.com/local/x554665216/State-tests-Birds-died-from-blunt-force-trauma
State tests: Birds died from blunt force trauma
January 27, 2011
By Adam Smith
[email protected] The News Courier

After two weeks of speculation about what killed hundreds of blackbirds on Interstate 65, the cause of death has been ruled blunt force trauma.

Two days after the winter storm of Jan. 9-10, about 300 dead birds were found near the right shoulder of I-65 north near Tanner. The birds were part of a larger flock of thousands of birds that were looking for food.

“They tested negative for everything, but (the lab) found evidence of blunt force trauma,” he said. “They found broken bones, bloods clots and other evidence of trauma.”

Wonder if the lab tests for Corexit? Or it's aftereffects.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/01/27/Report-Blunt-force-trauma-killed-birds/UPI-54381296141500/

U.S. News
Report: 'Blunt force trauma' killed birds
Published: Jan. 27, 2011 at 10:18 AM


LITTLE ROCK, Ark., Jan. 27 (UPI) -- The Arkansas Game and Fish Commission says "blunt force trauma" killed thousands of blackbirds northeast of Little Rock.

Officials made their determination after examining the remains of 13 red-winged blackbirds that were part of the group that flew into buildings and died in Beebe, Ark., CNN reported Thursday.

"The tests ruled out bacteria, viruses, heavy metals, pesticides and avicides (chemicals used to kill birds) as causes of death," the commission said in a statement.

The commission said tests found hemorrhaging "consistent with blunt trauma. In most instances, such traumatic injuries in wild birds are due to flying into stationary objects such as trees, houses, windows, power lines, towers, etc."

Question is which came first? The hemorrhaging or the flying into things? Which one really caused which?? They tested the fish. Nada. No poison, no toxin, no metals....they say we will probably never know.....

http://www.newser.com/story/110668/ark-fireworks-killed-birds-we-dont-know-about-fish.html

http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=393616

http://arkansasnews.com/2011/01/26/cause-of-arkansas-river-fish-kill-remains-unknown/
 
  • #327
IMO the flu shot never worked, I think they are placebos, and people think because they have a shot that it's suppose to stop all flu's. I just don't buy it.


Annual flu shots are not designed to stop all flu's. Scientists determine which strains of the flu they anticipate will be most prevalent each year and attempt to innoculate against those strains to prevent a pandemic.
 
  • #328
  • #329
The pharmaceutical companies are conducting the experiments, they are getting these medications approved by committing fraud. That's how they are being approved. So the flu shot could have loads of vitamin C and B vitamin and a antibiotic, which is what works anyway.

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=625176


If flu shots contained vitamins B and C or an antibiotic the pharmaceutical companies would be required by law (at least in the US) to release that information......on both the packaging inserts and the flu shot permission slip/waiver that people have to sign before getting the shot.
 
  • #330
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/radar-...irds-taking-flight-arkansas/story?id=12781951

Radar Images Show Startled Birds Taking Flight Before Arkansas Mass Death
Tests Suggest Birds in Beebe, Ark., Died From Blunt-Force Trauma

By BRIAN HARTMAN
Jan. 27, 2011

A bird scientist has isolated weather radar images that he says show exactly what killed the 5,000-or-so birds that fell dead from the sky over Beebe, Ark., on New Year's Eve.

Sidney Gauthreaux, a biological sciences professor at a Clemson University lab that studies radar images of birds, said a cloud burst on weather radar animation captures a series of pulses of startled birds taking flight in the Little Rock suburb.

"There is no question that the exodus of birds from the roost is visible in the radar display images," Gauthreaux said in a statement released by the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. "The first exodus occurred about 10:20 [p.m.] and contained approximately 6,000-7,000 birds per cubic kilometer. ... At 11:21 p.m., another pulse of birds with a slightly smaller density left the roost."

http://agfcnews.wordpress.com/
Cause of Arkansas River fish kill still unknown
January 26, 2011 by agsanchez

Biologists collected several dying fish during the first few days of the kill and sent them to researchers at the University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff.

“We can say conclusively that the drum were not killed from a bacterial or viral infection, or from parasites,” said AGFC Fish Pathologist Kelly Winningham. “UAPB ran a full set of fish health tests and everything came back negative

The Arkansas Department of Environmental Quality also collected fish and water samples from the area of the kill and conducted testing. Water samples were tested for metals, nutrients and minerals to assess water quality. Fish samples were tested for metals. A drum sample was tested for toxins such as pesticides and other organic chemicals. All samples were within normal values for the Arkansas River. The drum sample did not show any toxins.

Next article at same link:

Independent tests, radar help explain bird deaths
January 26, 2011 by agsanchez

“There is no question that the exodus of birds from the roost is visible in the radar display images,” said Gauthreaux, a zoology professor who created Clemson’s radar ornithology laboratory in 1990. “The first exodus occurred about 10:20 (p.m.) and contained approximately 6,000-7,000 birds per cubic kilometer. . . . At 11:21 p.m., another pulse of birds with a slightly smaller density left the roost

Windwood residents first observed the birds flying at roof top level and flying into structures and objects around 10:30 p.m. Beginning at about 11:30 p.m., AGFC wildlife officers received reports of blackbirds falling from the sky in and around the Windwood neighborhood. It’s estimated that 4,000-5,000 birds fell before midnight. It appears unusually loud noises, reported shortly before the birds began to fall, caused the birds to flush from the large roost. Additional New Year’s Eve fireworks in the area may have forced the birds to fly at a lower altitude than normal. Blackbirds have poor night vision and typically do not fly at night.

Gauthreaux’s report says no severe weather was “over or near the roost” at the time. Since 1992, Gauthreaux has used NEXRAD – Next Generation Weather Radar – to archive bird movements to track migration routes and stopover areas.

The AGFC flew over the area in a helicopter to gauge the scope of the event. No dead birds were found outside the initial area of fallen birds.


"It shows several pulses of birds leaving the roost and moving toward the SE," he said. " At the beginning of the loop (CLICK HERE to view Gauthreaux's animation in a loop), one can see the echoes from showers moving eastward, and the first burst of birds appears about 04:17 GMT on 1 Jan 2011 or 22:26 CST on 31 Dec 2010. Another pulse (exodus) occurs at 04:55 GMT, and another starts at 05:16 GMT.

"A good pulse begins at 05:59, or 1 minute before midnight, and many of the birds move toward the SE-SSE. Winds at this time are blowing strongly from the NW.

So, there was a rain shower shortly before 10:20ish, moving eastward and the first pulse of birds moves off the roost about 10:30 and people report them flying low over houses. Then another pulse takes off about 11:20 and people report them starting to fall out of the sky and 4 - 5,000 birds then rain out of the sky. If the loud noises frightened them into flying into things, buildings, cars, power lines....why did it take an hour and a half? How did they fly around safely for 1 and 1/2 hours and THEN suddenly start crashing into stuff??????? If the shower soaked them with oil/corexit, birds are very susceptible to environmental toxins. The pain of being having it on their skin could have caused the first fly off at 10:30 and it could have taken an hour for it to soak in and cause the damage, so by 11:30 they are not "in their right minds" and start flying into structures, causing the physical damage being reported in the autopsies. But I believe the hemorrhaging happened before they started flying into stuff. :cow:

I would really like to hear more about these unusually loud noises they have reported since the beginning of this. Shouldn't be thunder since they say there was no severe weather around at the time. They aren't talking like they were fireworks. I wonder if the other areas with big die offs also heard these loud noises. You would think that if someone did this on purpose, they would come forward and say so, and even so that doesn't explain all the other events.....
 
  • #331
Hi everyone! I am not a regular "poster" although I am a regular "reader" of websleuths. This headline caught my eye as my husband and I have been talking about this for a while. He found an article and sent it to me yesterday. Please forgive me if you have posted this because I have not read through all of the previous posts, but it certainly is an eye-opener! I couldn't believe the numbers of some of these birds.

http://www.naturalnews.com/files/USDA-Bye-Bye-Blackbird.pdf
 
  • #332
This Groundhog Day storm as they are calling it, could be the same type of weather we saw around New Years. I will be interested to see if we have massive wildlife die-offs from "physical trauma" after this.

http://www.accuweather.com/blogs/news/story/45062/groundhog-day-storm-may-affect.asp
Groundhog Day Storm May Affect More than 100 Million People

The latest indications continue to point toward a large storm forming amidst a building temperature contrast over the middle of the nation. Precipitation and strong cold air/warm air circulation around that storm will affect many millions of people from the interior West to the Atlantic Coast as next week progresses.
 
  • #333
http://www.myfoxal.com/Global/story.asp?S=13920458
Test results for dead blackbirds in north Alabama show trauma
Posted: Jan 27, 2011 1:00 PM EST
Updated: Jan 27, 2011 1:00 PM EST

BIRMINGHAM, AL (WBRC) - The test results of the group of blackbirds found dead in Limestone County Jan. 12 have returned and show signs of blunt trauma, indicating the birds flew into a large object, said Agriculture and Industries Commissioner John McMillan.

The test results showed the sample of nine blackbirds had broken legs and wings plus blood in their throats, said wildlife biologist Mark Sasser, who works for the state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. He believes the flock of more than 50 blackbirds likely died after flying into passing vehicles on I-65 near Tanner, where they were discovered. The winter weather could have been indirectly responsible for their deaths.


http://www.waaytv.com/news/local/st...se-of-Bird-Deaths/ZKZ9O9YF3U-xBKqLbET2_g.cspx
Truckers Doubt Cause of Bird Deaths
By: Tim Reid
Email: [email protected]
Last Update: 1/27 8:23 pm


But some local truck drivers don't buy it. We talked to several at a busy truck stop in Falkville near Cullman. Ogden Tatum is driving from Louisiana to Ohio and says he doesn't believe big trucks killed 300 black birds. In five years Tatums 18 wheeler has never been struck by birds. "That doesn't sound realistic, being out here driving three thousand miles a week it really doesn't sound realistic" Tatum said.

Truck driver Bill King feels the same way. "You don't hit 300 of them at one time, that doesn't happen"
King said.
 
  • #334
http://pottsmerc.com/articles/2011/01/31/news/green/doc4d4705b9e37cb158935542.txt?viewmode=default

Experts: Birds likely flew into power lines
Published: Monday, January 31, 2011;
Last Updated: Sun. Jan 30, 2011, 11:07pm

State Wildlife Veterinarian Jim LaCour told The Advocate that the carcasses found in Pointe Coupee Parish tested negative for toxins, viruses and bacterial infections. Many of the birds showed signs of trauma and were found in an area directly underneath power lines near a railroad track.

"We had a new moon, so it was very dark," LaCour said. "It was windy and there were trees nearby the birds could have used for roosting."

LaCour said it was possible the birds were startled by a passing train — and then hit the power lines.

The Arkansas birds had wounds consistent with flying into houses and trees, Slota said. The dead birds in Louisiana, however, had wing damage, lacerations and markings indicating they flew into wires or power lines, he said.

OK, so I don't think anyone is debating that flying into houses, cars and power lines would cause damage to birds. My question is why aren't any of these scientists curious about why they suddenly started flying into stationary objects???? If they were *startled* by a passing train, why aren't they finding dead birds there today? Why only THAT day? WHY aren't the birds flying into the power lines now? The moon is dark every month.....:maddening:
 
  • #335
http://pottsmerc.com/articles/2011/01/31/news/green/doc4d4705b9e37cb158935542.txt?viewmode=default

Experts: Birds likely flew into power lines
Published: Monday, January 31, 2011;
Last Updated: Sun. Jan 30, 2011, 11:07pm







OK, so I don't think anyone is debating that flying into houses, cars and power lines would cause damage to birds. My question is why aren't any of these scientists curious about why they suddenly started flying into stationary objects???? If they were *startled* by a passing train, why aren't they finding dead birds there today? Why only THAT day? WHY aren't the birds flying into the power lines now? The moon is dark every month.....:maddening:

It has to be they were distracted by the U.F.O they were following.
 
  • #336
Thank you legalmania for finally providing a reasonable explanation. :crazy: Yours beats the heck outta theirs IMO.
 
  • #337
Yeah, OK......hmmmm

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2011/02/02/quebec-farm-dead-pigeons-poison.html


Quebec birds killed by banned insecticide
Last Updated: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 | 11:39 AM ET
CBC News


More than 50 dead pigeons were found Dec. 18 in a farmer's field in Saint-Augustin-de-Desmaures, about 20 kilometres west of Quebec City.

Officials from Quebec's Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAPAQ) have concluded they were poisoned by Fenthion, which was used to control birds until 1995.

Farmer Sylvain Turmel, who originally reported the deaths, said he doesn't use the chemical.

He called police and the fire department in late December after birds started falling from the sky, sometimes almost landing on his head. The birds continued to fall and didn't stop until a couple of weeks ago, Turmel said.

The birds would remain on the ground for one or two hours before dying.

Natural Resources officials had originally told Turmel that the cause of death was not poison.

I understand that a neighbor could be using it and the birds fly over to Farmer T's to die, but I doubt it......

Yeah, ok, Fenthion was banned in Canada in 1995 and the US in 2004.....but it is killing pigeons in 2011?

http://www.federalregister.gov/arti...hion-product-registrations-cancellation-order

Fenthion; Product Registrations Cancellation Order
A Notice by the Environmental Protection Agency on 09/26/2003

III. Cancellation Order
Pursuant to section 6(f) of FIFRA, EPA hereby approves the requested cancellations of fenthion product registrations identified in Table 1 of this notice. Accordingly, the Agency orders that the fenthion product registrations identified in Table 1 are hereby canceled as of June 30, 2004. After June 30, 2004, it will be unlawful for any person to distribute or sell any fenthion product, except as provided in Unit VI. Use of any fenthion products before November 30, 2004, including canceled products, must be in accordance with label directions and restrictions. Use of any fenthion products after November 30, 2004, is unlawful.

I understand some farmer could have a backstock and just decided to do away with all the pigeons that had been bothering him, but it was banned in Canada in 1995. Whoever it was waited a long time to start.

http://ipm.osu.edu/trans/022_022.htm

U.S. Government Sued For Bird Deaths
February 1, 2002

On January 28, 2002, the U.S. environmental groups American Bird Conservancy, Defenders of Wildlife and the Biodiversity Legal Foundation filed a notice of intent to sue the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) over the organophosphate pesticide fenthion. Currently being used to kill adult mosquitoes in the U.S. state of Florida, the pesticide is highly toxic to birds and is putting thousands of birds that winter or breed in the state at risk.

In one instance where fenthion was sprayed for mosquito control, an estimated 25,000 birds of 37 species were killed. In Florida, the pesticide has caused the death of the Piping Plover, a bird on the endangered species list.

Called a "Sixty Day Letter," the notice of intent issued by the three environmental groups is required under U.S. law for cases involving endangered species and gives the EPA 60 days to remedy the situation before litigation can begin. The letter also outlines violations of the Migratory Bird Treaty Act (MBTA), a law that makes killing any migratory bird without a permit a criminal offense even if the death was unintentional.

http://www.fws.gov/laws/lawsdigest/migtrea.html

Digest of Federal Resource Laws of Interest to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918


The original 1918 statute implemented the 1916 Convention between the U.S. and Great Britain (for Canada) for the protection of migratory birds. Later amendments implemented treaties between the U.S. and Mexico, the U.S. and Japan, and the U.S. and the Soviet Union (now Russia).

Specific provisions in the statute include:

Establishment of a Federal prohibition, unless permitted by regulations, to "pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill, attempt to take, capture or kill, possess, offer for sale, sell, offer to purchase, purchase, deliver for shipment, ship, cause to be shipped, deliver for transportation, transport, cause to be transported, carry, or cause to be carried by any means whatever, receive for shipment, transportation or carriage, or export, at any time, or in any manner, any migratory bird, included in the terms of this Convention . . . for the protection of migratory birds . . . or any part, nest, or egg of any such bird." (16 U.S.C. 703)
This prohibition applies to birds included in the respective international conventions between the U.S. and Great Britain, the U.S. and Mexico, the U.S. and Japan, and the U.S. and the Russia.
 
  • #338
http://www.katv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13942797

More dead fish found in Arkansas River, but fewer
Associated Press - January 31, 2011 7:14 PM ET

Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

More dead drum in the Arkansas River.

http://arkansasnews.com/2011/01/31/hundreds-more-drum-found-dead-in-river/

Hundreds more drum found dead in river
Posted on 31 January 2011 Arkansas News Bureau

LITTLE ROCK — Nearly 500 fish were found dead in the Arkansas River near Ozark late week, about a month after 83,000 fish were found dead or dying in same area, Arkansas Game and Fish Commission officials said today.

The latest find occurred Friday in the river near Ozark Lock and Dam, said Chris Racey, assistant chief of fisheries with the commission.
 
  • #339
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=178757&catid=188

Hundreds of dead fish found in north Fort Collins
Christina Dickinson
3 days ago

FORT COLLINS - More than 250 dead fish were found on a 150-foot stretch of shoreline near an irrigation ditch just north of Willox Street Saturday.

The fish, which were mostly sucker fish with some brown trout, were discovered by Fort Collins resident Bob Jackson. Jackson immediately informed local authorities, who sent out representatives from the U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife.

"I walked the shoreline on the north side of Willox and took some samples that I turned into the health lab," Shane Craig, district wildlife manager and game warden for Fort Collins, said.
 
  • #340
I'm confused by the poll, what is the difference between the Gulf oil spill and the BP oil spill?
 

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