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  • #141
Hi guys, I got the PM from butwhatif? and have started reading through the thread. What, specifically, is it that you guys want me to look at? TIA!!

Here's butwhatif?'s post.

Originally Posted by butwhatif?
I was watching a stream of Law and order the other night where they found a stain in the outline of a human body caused by adipocere. The mentioned that adipocere cannot be removed....ever. The stain will always come back, regardless of how many times it is cleaned.
Now, I dont rely on info from a TV show, so I looked it up myself, and it seems to be true.
So if the state theorizes that the paper towels were used to clean up decomp including adipocere from the trunk of the car, then how is it that none was detected there? Other cases show it can still be detected after decades.
(NOTE: all references I've found are specific to concrete, not carpet, so I don't know if that makes a difference.)

Very interesting report of adipocere stain being tested after almost 30 yrs

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~jacksong/...%20surface.pdf

Now to the big discovery- Guess where else these same fatty acids are found? Marijuana! Which was the only other compound located on the paper towels. The ratios of these fatty acids vary depending on the individual test sample.

http://www.justice.gov/dea/programs/...num14/pg3.html

~snip- more at above link~


Now I'm wondering why this very significant point was not included in the report along with the speculation of it's possible source (no mention of other possible sources shows tunnel vision IMO.)
The defense are going to have a field day with this, and could rightly point out how biased the reports were.
My guess- they cleaned out their cone/pipe with the paper towels, or used the PT to wipe their sticky fingers from the marijuana resin. This theory accounts for every compound found on the PT. If it were adipocere there would be far more compounds detected according to the research I've done.

So why the "coffin" flies? Phorid flies will feed on decaying organic substances of all kinds.- Not just decaying bodies, as the reports would like us to believe.
BBM

Could the maggot-ridden substance found on the napkins be moldy pot?

Here is the report from Arpad Vass which includes fatty acid ratios of the substance: http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png.
 
  • #142
Correct me if I am wrong, but speaking of cannabis,I thought the only oil in a pot plant comes from the seeds. Nobody purposefully smokes the seed or purposefully breaks the seeds open. It wouldn't seem that the amount of oil cleaned out of a bowl or pipe would be significant.
 
  • #143
Correct me if I am wrong, but speaking of cannabis,I thought the only oil in a pot plant comes from the seeds. Nobody purposefully smokes the seed or purposefully breaks the seeds open. It wouldn't seem that the amount of oil cleaned out of a bowl or pipe would be significant.

Yes, its well known about the seeds, but this study shows that its also found in the leaves.

(snipped from my previous post)

ABSTRACT: Various fatty acids (palmitic, myristic, oleic, and stearic acids) were identified in 20 marijuana (cannabis leaf) samples recently seized on the illicit market in Rome, Italy. Samples were analyzed by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry to determine delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, other minor cannabinoid congeners, and fatty acids. Although cannabis seeds and the oil derived from those seeds are known to be rich in fatty acids, this is believed to be the first study demonstrating the presence of fatty acids in marijuana. The potential value of the results in source determination and comparative analyses is discussed.

http://www.justice.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/journal_v5_num14/pg3.html

In my OP I failed to mention that furfural derivatives were also detected on the PT....my apologies.
When you google 'furfural' and 'cannabis' there's a bunch of results that show it is used to test for cannabis.

Dogmom, in your opinion is it possible that its presence(furfurnal) on the PT is from the testing, since they got a positive on THC and cannibinol? The report states:

"Significant furfuran derivatives were also detected potentially indicating the breakdown of cellulose in the paper towels".

My main question for you though, is in your opinion would you say that while these fatty acids are consistant with adipocere, that they are also consistant with marijuana?
TIA
 
  • #144
Yes, its well known about the seeds, but this study shows that its also found in the leaves.

(snipped from my previous post)



http://www.justice.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/journal_v5_num14/pg3.html

In my OP I failed to mention that furfural derivatives were also detected on the PT....my apologies.
When you google 'furfural' and 'cannabis' there's a bunch of results that show it is used to test for cannabis.

Dogmom, in your opinion is it possible that its presence(furfurnal) on the PT is from the testing, since they got a positive on THC and cannibinol? The report states:



My main question for you though, is in your opinion would you say that while these fatty acids are consistant with adipocere, that they are also consistant with marijuana?
TIA

I just reread the linked study.

The extraction was all done chemically. Fatty acids do not come out of a marijuana leaf naturally. Also the shelf life of even true pure hemp seed oil is limited due to the high amount of unsaturated fatty acids which are easily oxidized. The tiny, tiny amount that might come out of a leaf naturally probably wouldn't hold up in a hot car trunk for a month.

jmo
 
  • #145
Palmitic acid (C16H32O2), stearic acid (C18H36O2), and myristic acid (C14H28O2) are all saturated fatty acids. "Saturated" means that there are no double bonded carbons in the molecule...so there are as many hydrogens in the molecule as possible... the molecule is "saturated" with hydrogen atoms. Oleic acid (C18H34O2) is most abundant FA in human adipose tissue, and it is UNsaturated. If you hydrogenate the double bond (remove the double bond and add hydrogen) of oleic acid you end up with stearic acid (one of the saturated FA's). Palmitoleic acid (C16H30O2) is also a monounsaturated fatty acid, found throughout human adipose tissue. According to Vass' report, recently decomposing samples will have lots of oleic fatty acids (unsaturated). The unsaturated FA's are converted into saturated fatty acids (like stearic acid) over time. This means that some of the oleic acid was converted into other fatty acids while the paper towels were in the hot trunk during the summer. This explains why the the other fatty acids are present...they're products of decomposition and hydrolysis, hydrogenation, oxidation, etc. It also explains why they found lower levels of oleic acid than they would have expected for a recently deceased body...the substance on the paper towels was months old (regardless of where it came from/when decomposition began).
Vass concludes in the end of his report that the sample was consistent with human decomposition and (based on what I've read this evening) I agree with his conclusion.

THC and cannibinol are indicative of the pot....I don't think that the presence of myristic, palmitic, oleic, and/or stearic acids in the pot is significant. The results section of the study says that they only found all four FA's present in half of the samples that they analyzed. They also fail to give any real quantitative information... they don't tell us HOW MUCH of each of these FA's they found in the pot samples...but I'm going to do my best to estimate and explain my thought process. :) You've got to remember that they're working with very sensitive instruments (GC-MS) in this study, so they could have been identifying very small, trace amounts of FA's. I doubt that the amount of fatty acid they found on the paper towels could have come from whatever weed KC (or whoever it was) had. I can see where they were able to identify the THC and cannibinol... but they said that SMALL amounts were present. IIRC, pot is something like 5% THC...so if there was a gram of pot in the trunk (thats about a joint) they would've found around 50 milligrams of THC (which would be easy to identify/measure). The sample size they used for the fatty acid study was 100 milligrams...so there would've been a pretty low amount of THC (they abbreviate it CBD+CBN in their table). They give the ratio of fatty acid to CBD+CBN....and they got really little numbers. Assume that the 100 milligrams of pot was 5% THC, then 5 milligrams was actually THC. If they found 0.15 was the ratio of palmitic acid to THC, you can write the equation 0.15=x/5 and then calculate that x=0.75 milligrams of palmitic acid. That means that 1 gram of pot (a joint) would have 7.5 milligrams of palmitic acid in it....which is insignificant in comparison to the amount they found on the paper towels.
OK...I probably just confused everybody....maybe I made a little bit of sense, though! I hope this helps answer the questions you guys have. I'm sorry if it doesn't...I'm not very good at explaining things. If I don't make sense, please let me know and I will do my best to do better. :)
 
  • #146
Your explanation was great, DogMom. I think I get it.

I had a duh moment myself, and realized these paper towels were probably from the trash bag, as in previously used. If KC reused them, there would be substance from more than one source.
 
  • #147
Your explanation was great, DogMom. I think I get it.

I had a duh moment myself, and realized these paper towels were probably from the trash bag, as in previously used. If KC reused them, there would be substance from more than one source.

Or maybe while "cleaning up" her trunk KC needed a few "hits"? If all she had were leftover "roaches" and she didn't have a "clip" handy, residue could easily get onto her fingers and then onto the napkins.

jmo
 
  • #148
Palmitic acid (C16H32O2), stearic acid (C18H36O2), and myristic acid (C14H28O2) are all saturated fatty acids. "Saturated" means that there are no double bonded carbons in the molecule...so there are as many hydrogens in the molecule as possible... the molecule is "saturated" with hydrogen atoms. Oleic acid (C18H34O2) is most abundant FA in human adipose tissue, and it is UNsaturated. If you hydrogenate the double bond (remove the double bond and add hydrogen) of oleic acid you end up with stearic acid (one of the saturated FA's). Palmitoleic acid (C16H30O2) is also a monounsaturated fatty acid, found throughout human adipose tissue. According to Vass' report, recently decomposing samples will have lots of oleic fatty acids (unsaturated). The unsaturated FA's are converted into saturated fatty acids (like stearic acid) over time. This means that some of the oleic acid was converted into other fatty acids while the paper towels were in the hot trunk during the summer. This explains why the the other fatty acids are present...they're products of decomposition and hydrolysis, hydrogenation, oxidation, etc. It also explains why they found lower levels of oleic acid than they would have expected for a recently deceased body...the substance on the paper towels was months old (regardless of where it came from/when decomposition began).
Vass concludes in the end of his report that the sample was consistent with human decomposition and (based on what I've read this evening) I agree with his conclusion.

THC and cannibinol are indicative of the pot....I don't think that the presence of myristic, palmitic, oleic, and/or stearic acids in the pot is significant. The results section of the study says that they only found all four FA's present in half of the samples that they analyzed. They also fail to give any real quantitative information... they don't tell us HOW MUCH of each of these FA's they found in the pot samples...but I'm going to do my best to estimate and explain my thought process. :) You've got to remember that they're working with very sensitive instruments (GC-MS) in this study, so they could have been identifying very small, trace amounts of FA's. I doubt that the amount of fatty acid they found on the paper towels could have come from whatever weed KC (or whoever it was) had. I can see where they were able to identify the THC and cannibinol... but they said that SMALL amounts were present. IIRC, pot is something like 5% THC...so if there was a gram of pot in the trunk (thats about a joint) they would've found around 50 milligrams of THC (which would be easy to identify/measure). The sample size they used for the fatty acid study was 100 milligrams...so there would've been a pretty low amount of THC (they abbreviate it CBD+CBN in their table). They give the ratio of fatty acid to CBD+CBN....and they got really little numbers. Assume that the 100 milligrams of pot was 5% THC, then 5 milligrams was actually THC. If they found 0.15 was the ratio of palmitic acid to THC, you can write the equation 0.15=x/5 and then calculate that x=0.75 milligrams of palmitic acid. That means that 1 gram of pot (a joint) would have 7.5 milligrams of palmitic acid in it....which is insignificant in comparison to the amount they found on the paper towels.
OK...I probably just confused everybody....maybe I made a little bit of sense, though! I hope this helps answer the questions you guys have. I'm sorry if it doesn't...I'm not very good at explaining things. If I don't make sense, please let me know and I will do my best to do better. :)

You are good are explaining things, and you do make sense- thanks a bunch :blowkiss:
 
  • #149
I keep reading on various threads that the bad smell in KC's car was created by rotting garbage in the trash bag. According to the evidence, that is a myth. There was no meat. There was no food in the trash bag. There were pieces of a cardboard pizza box and empty containers.

TRASH BAG INVENTORY http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20321119/detail.html

PICTURES OF TRASH FROM THE TRASH BAG http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20320624/detail.html

E-MAIL BETWEEN OCSO AND ARPAD VASS ABOUT THE TRASH:
-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:30 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,

I check the trash that was in the vehicle there was no meat products in the trash. There were pieces of a pizza box and other food containers. I will be emailing you a picture of the items first thing tomorrow.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:33 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, not sure how I got that there was a pizza in the trunk – sorry about that one, but can you send me an itemized list of stuff that was in the trunk at the time the car was searched? Also, were the maggots on the pizza box?? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:40 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

The pizza story came from the mother, who told reporters the smell was from pizza in the trunk. A local news station left a half of pizza in a trunk for seven days, there results were no smell, no maggots, just dried out pizza. I will send you the list along with the pictures.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:40 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,
Attached is a list of items that was in the trash bag in the vehicle. Also attached are pictures of the items. If there is anything else I can help you with please let me know.


ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4081938&highlight=arpad+haskell#post4081938
 
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