• #36,181
FBI sources said this week that kidnapped Nancy Guthrie may be in Mexico, while the sheriff of Pima County, Arizona, claimed his team’s evidence puts her in Tucson.

It’s just one of many rifts between the local cops and the feds, which critics say is a major reason why little progress has been made in finding “Today” show co-host Savannah Guthrie’s 84-year-old mom, who was abducted from her home on Feb. 1.

“[The FBI] should have taken the case over within the first few days. We have been treating this as a kidnapping and the FBI is the premier agency to deal with kidnappings,” Aaron Cross, president of the Pima County Deputies Association, told The Post earlier this week.

More at Why Nancy Guthrie hasn’t been found — from cops’ early errors to DNA blunder

I can’t get over how some folks seem to not want the Sheriff to succeed.

Mr. Cross needs to keep his opinions private he sounds like he hopes to benefit from his publicity because he is not helping find NG or the ransom note writer.

There hasn’t even been an outcome with a trial in order to judge the investigation.

Many media outlets are not even reporting facts its headline gossip trying to sow problems between the FBI and the bad guy Sheriff.

Baseless speculation like that the SO didn’t somehow notice the blood on the front porch or they didn’t spend enough time at the scene when the team, not just the Sheriff, but a team spent 20 hours, then as the Sheriff said the FBI did their thing.

DNA was collected on the front porch and they got some of it back which was NG's. Can we not deduce on our own any other was unknown still?

We don’t have any idea of how extensive the crime scene was they could have spent most of the time on a small attack site with not much evidence left to work with.

Nanos said he had a meeting with the FBI on Thursday, and one agent told him, “We do not want the media to divide us.”

Sheriff disputes claim that he is blocking FBI from evidence in Nancy Guthrie investigation

Thursday, Nanos said that DNA analysis linked to the blood to Nancy.

“We did a rush through and got some of that back,” he said. “The results were minimal. I think you all know the blood on the porch. That was one we did; it came back to Nancy.”

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/...now-as-sheriff-prepares-to-give-day-5-update/

When asked when the search might turn into a recovery effort, Nanos pointed to the 400 personnel currently deployed in the field.

"My team, 400 people out there in the field today, woke up this morning and went out there with the hope and the belief that they’re going to find Nancy, and she’s going to be OK," Nanos insisted.

"Just let her go. It will work out better for you in the long run," he pleaded. "Take her to a park. Take her to the hospital. Just let her go."

'You have no proof she's not alive': Sheriff holds out hope in Nancy Guthrie case
 
  • #36,182
  • #36,183
Re: Conversation with a criminologist acquaintance who is NOT working this case: I did not mean to leave anyone in suspense; I asked if I could post and then my family was hit by the flu the next morning after a mod said I could post under MOO. I did take some notes but this was nearly a week ago now, so some parts of the case understanding may have shifted since that conversation, and if there are errors in accuracy, I am sure they are mine. All of this should be taken with a dose of JMO, etc.

Amidst the family illness, I’ve given up on trying to get it all out quickly, but I will post some in pieces.

I should also say anything is possible. Outliers exist. But we were discussing probabilities, not rare exceptions beyond this whole thing being a rare exception. As we say in my own field, first think horses, not zebras.

So my own understanding now, part 1:

Regarding the theory that Savannah had an obsessive stalker who went after her mom: Unlikely. In general, abducting her mom would be a very rare expression of that sort of obsession. If Savannah had a stalker like that, that person would have made increasingly intimate and extreme efforts at forms of contact with SG before trying to abduct someone, so that person would very much be on the LE radar. But the behavior after NG’s disappearance also does not fit that at all. The person would desperately want to communicate with Savannah directly and would feel compelled to tell her specific and probably very outlandish things. Instead, we have no direct communication with SG re: the abduction, random, etc.

What is much more possible re: SG is that someone local discovered there’s an accessible individual with a high-net-worth family member, making NG someone to target not because they care about SG other than her being a source of funds, but because NG is convenient to them, appears vulnerable on some research/recon, etc. That might be because someone mentioned to them a famous and successful ‘hometown girl’ whose mom still lives around here, or from Today Show coverage that included SG, etc.

And NG had lived 50 years in that house without being targeted, and without violent crime in her neighborhood, so it was not a focus as a possibility. So while we can all think in hindsight they should have made NG more secure in X, Y, or Z ways, NG was just living her life by her long-term standards of peaceful expectations, and people should be careful not to shame or blame her family, who are going through hell, for not anticipating this incredibly rare risk.

Again, MOO after the conversation, etc.

Will post more in the next day or two as I can.
Also, adding on to your “much more possible” scenario, a Google Maps search of her address shows no street lights, a secluded neighborhood with nearly 1 acre parcels each, and homes that are set back from the main road with full grown cactus/trees for more privacy.
A doorbell cam at the neighbors would definitely not see a car driving by unless it entered their driveway.
Also, being so close to the border gives an advantage for evidence or body disposal.

A lot of advantages to her residence for committing a crime.
 
  • #36,184
I can’t get over how some folks seem to not want the Sheriff to succeed.

Mr. Cross needs to keep his opinions private he sounds like he hopes to benefit from his publicity because he is not helping find NG or the ransom note writer.

There hasn’t even been an outcome with a trial in order to judge the investigation.

Many media outlets are not even reporting facts its headline gossip trying to sow problems between the FBI and the bad guy Sheriff.

Baseless speculation like that the SO didn’t somehow notice the blood on the front porch or they didn’t spend enough time at the scene when the team, not just the Sheriff, but a team spent 20 hours, then as the Sheriff said the FBI did their thing.

DNA was collected on the front porch and they got some of it back which was NG's. Can we not deduce on our own any other was unknown still?

We don’t have any idea of how extensive the crime scene was they could have spent most of the time on a small attack site with not much evidence left to work with.



Sheriff disputes claim that he is blocking FBI from evidence in Nancy Guthrie investigation



https://www.wfla.com/news/national/...now-as-sheriff-prepares-to-give-day-5-update/



'You have no proof she's not alive': Sheriff holds out hope in Nancy Guthrie case
IMO He's a controversial person here and it's showing even to people who don't live here. Everyone in this thread and those who follow the case want NG found-which means the sheriff succeeds in some way should this happen. IMO if it does not happen, unfortunately it would not surprise many who live here IMO.
 
  • #36,185
I'm hopeful and optimistic. I think she's alive and relatively comfortable. According to HL on TMZ, the most recent letter had graphic details about what would happen if they didn't pay the ransom, which suggests that she's still alive and doesn't indicate that she's in poor health. NG seems smart, sweet, and capable of keeping herself alive in adverse conditions. MOO


I would greatly rejoice if this were true, and Nancy comes home alive and not damaged beyond repair, but IMO criminals do lie, after all.

Whether their most recent letter was a genuine threat or a bargaining chip or a pure invention, I don’t know. But I trust nothing that comes from a letter that could be sent by anyone.

Without proof of life, I do not trust.

JMO
 
  • #36,186
Or she didn't know it. My parents in their 80's have a safe, they lost the combination. If a perp broke in, they would not be able to give a perp the combination. Could explain the excess amount of time spent in the house having NG look for it, got impatient and hit her because they thought she was intentionally stalling.
LE has stated this is not a burglary gone wrong. It's amazing to me that people accept what LE has said and links are posted for sources but when they say something that goes against someone's personal narrative, what LE has said has no merit. Not personal to you bigcityaccountant AT ALL, I like your posts but LE (NANOS) said it was a targeted kidnapping. NOT a burglary gone wrong. This came out this week. We have no idea if she even had a safe. Maybe she fell and fainted. Maybe the perp stopped long enough to make a ham sandwich for the road! He may have knocked her out, drugged her, then tied her up and while disabled, taken her away in a space ship. WE KNOW NOTHING, really! We can go by what has been stated and even that may be said by LE in an effort to keep the perp confused. It's all about motive, imo. MOO

EDITED TO ADD THE LINK ABOUT THE BURGLARY GONE WRONG
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #36,187
Oh no! I've been rumbled!

Was just wondering if, geologically speaking, there are areas around Tucson with looser earth.

There is a land fill not far away.
 
  • #36,188
  • #36,189
The odd behavior of the front porch intruder can be explained by assuming that a change had to be made to the kidnapper’s original plan to exit the house by the same path used to enter the house; namely, by the back door. The following paragraphs explain this further.

The first figure shows the first frame of video from the front door camera that shows the intruder approaching the front porch. Notice that the intruder is stepping onto the front walk from a position to the left, and not from the right or from straight ahead. Therefore, it is unlikely that he came up the front walk steps where the hand rail is located. So, where could he be coming from?
Fig 1.webp

The answer can be found by looking at the second figure, which shows an aerial view of the front of the house.
Fig 2.webp

This view shows the intruder’s position with a red rectangle. It is immediately in front of a white circular stepping stone that can be seen in both the door camera video and the aerial view of the house. Now, this position is approached most easily by a clear path to the corner of the house as shown by the red dots in the aerial view. It is unlikely that the intruder entered this bath from any point short of the corner of the house because he would have had to climb over a two-foot high pile of rocks to reach the path as shown in the third figure – something not impossible, but a hassle that one would have preferred to avoid especially at night.
Fig 3.webp

Therefore, it appears that the intruder came to the front door from a point beyond the corner of the house. This point was most likely the point of entry into the house, which we are told by authorities was the door to the back porch. If this is the case, then most likely the intruder came from inside the house before he approached the front door.

Now, let’s assume that that the original plan was to for the kidnapper(s) to exit the house by walking out the back door with their victim walking beside them to their vehicle located somewhere down the street. This would have been their safest option to avoid other cameras. And parking the vehicle on the street would have made it easier for a fast getaway than parking in the driveway, where they could have been blocked in. Unfortunately, while they were inside the house it became apparent to them that it was impossible for Nancy to walk to the vehicle where it was, either because Nancy told them she couldn’t walk that far or because they could see for themselves that she couldn’t walk that far (they could have spotted the walker she used inside the house). Therefore, they were forced to make a change in their exit plan and to bring the vehicle closer to the house so Nancy wouldn’t have to walk as far. The front door was decided to be the best option for doing this.

Therefore, while one of the kidnappers remained with Nancy to ensure that she didn’t call the police, the other kidnapper exited out the back door to get the vehicle. While on his way to get the vehicle, he remembered that there was a front door camera that could see the vehicle approach the front of the house, watch them enter the vehicle, and make their getaway. He knew this camera existed because of his reconnaissance of the house a few weeks earlier, when he was spotted unknowingly by the front door camera. Therefore, he had to either cover up the camera or remove it entirely before bringing the vehicle to the house. So, he went directly from the back porch to the front porch to disable the camera.

One can see on the camera video that he knew the camera existed because he held his head down while approaching the camera from the side. When he was unable to remove camera easily, he decided to temporarily cover it up with something so that it could not see the vehicle, assuming he could find a tool later in the vehicle or in the house that would help him remove the camera while they were exiting through the front door. So, he decided to use some nearby vegetation to disable the camera. While covering it with vegetation appears to most people to be a sign of gross incompetence, it actually served his purpose quite well because the camera was unable to see him later bring the vehicle to the front steps, get out, and approach the camera once more to remove it, either by approaching it from outside the house or from the inside. Then, after the camera was removed, no one could see them take Nancy down the front walk, put her in the vehicle, and then leave in the vehicle. And we know that they exited this way because of the blood on the front porch that wasn’t there when the intruder approached the camera the first time.

So this change of exit plan explains the following:

1) The front door video occurs while leaving the house and not while entering the house.
a. The intruder at the front door was inside the house prior to going to the front door and was likely the driver of the vehicle.
b. This explains the full backpack used by the intruder at the front door. It contains objects taken from inside or outside the house like possibly cameras, and other objects of value, and not just tools for entering the house.
c. It explains why covering the camera with vegetation was an effective action and not a sign of gross incompetence.

2) The intruder on the video at the front door likely had an accomplice.
a. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while the intruder was at the front door.
b. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while someone else disabled cameras and flood lights before exiting the house, which could have caused sounds that Nancy might have heard. (Nancy was hard of hearing and used hearing aids, but the kidnappers likely did not know this ahead of time).
c. The intruder appears to not have full use of his right hand, right elbow, and right leg, making it difficult for him to climb to the roof to remove cameras.
d. If the intruder did not have an accomplice, then he had to ensure that Nancy could not call the police while he was absent by tying her up with tape or cord. But it still would have been risky to leave her alone.

3) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how Nancy entered her house prior to her kidnapping.

4) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how the kidnappers entered the house.
a. Either Nancy left the back door unlocked, or
b. Someone else had left the back door unlocked, or
c. The kidnappers picked the lock on the back door. (There was no forced entry).
d. The kidnappers could have entered the house via a sliding door to the bedroom. In this case they would have still planned to exit via the back door because exiting via the sliding door would have required the victim to climb over a low brick wall. The rear porch did not have a sliding door.

5) The camera removed by the FBI from the roof of the guest house would have seen all entry and exit movements by any intruders via the back door. This camera was overlooked by the kidnappers because it was not on the roof of the main house. At this time only the FBI knows how much of this video data was stored within this camera, stored onsite in the house, or transmitted to the cloud. Perhaps some data was stored. Perhaps none was stored.
 
  • #36,190
Well it would tell us for sure that she infact left
Are you saying that she never left her house? If NG never left her house then where is she?
Just a question in case you meant to word things differently.
 
  • #36,191

<modsnip: Quoted posts were removed>

We know she made it back into the home after she was dropped off.

This is one link there are many more on the Websleuths Guthrie case media thread.

Investigators have discovered Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker stopped syncing with her Apple Watch when was abducted in the early hours of Sunday morning. Police sources revealed that the 84-year-old's heart device stopped sending data to the high-tech watch around 2am Sunday, reports Fox News. Investigators told the outlet that Nancy's Apple Watch was left inside her home, which likely means the devices stopped 'syncing' when the pacemaker was out of range from the watch. Apple Watches allow users to connect health devices including pacemakers to monitor their vital signs via Bluetooth.



all imo
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #36,192
Are they back at the landfill area again or is this from earlier this afternoon? I can’t discern.
I think it’s likely fox news sent the chopper after they caught wind of the search happening earlier.

Or atleast that’s how it appears to me. I don’t see an active search happening when i watch the live feed. moo
 
  • #36,193
Are they back at the landfill area again or is this from earlier this afternoon? I can’t discern.
When I posted it it said 13 minutes ago but I am not really sure, to be honest.
 
  • #36,194
So Law Enforcement are looking at the following :

1) Neighbours security camera (requested)
2) Ransom notes (TMZ)
3) DNA evidence (house mixed DNA - labs)
4) Walmart Purchases (requested)
5) NG security camera footage (analyzing)
6) Door to door / business enquires (following up leads)
7) Incident Call Centre (40,000 plus leads)

Have I missed anything?
afaik they are still going round gun shops with 40 photos of possible suspects.
 
  • #36,195
As a few people said earlier today I'm at the point where reading posts and thinking about what could have happened is exhausting. So many days and so much media that is not reliable theorizing based on info that isn't factual or is misleading and labeling their theory as fact. Add to that the facts being reported by reliable sources and I feel like I'm in a tornado unable to keep straight what is true what is theory and what is just bs.

I don't feel alone at least as I've seen others here doing the same thing I'm doing in my head "I know someone said X but I can't remember if it was the neighbor or was it the sheriff and what day was that" and then going off to hunt for it and not being able to find it. So frustrating right? I took a break this morning and I'm going to step away this afternoon as well.

There is one thing I know for sure and I keep seeing it come up in here and just need to say my opinion. Whatever SG chooses to do from here with her career is something we don't know and I don't think we should even speculate about it. It's not relevant to solving this case. She will do the best thing for her and her family. I remember when KC's (past cohost of the Today show) husband died of colon cancer at age 42. She came back to Today after just a few days because she said it helped her think about something else for several hours a day. And then she launched a public campaign about getting colonoscopies and talked about that on the Today show. She even had a colonoscopy live on the show. She turned her grief into positive actions.

People process grief in different ways. That was KC's way and SG will have her own way but please, let the DM speculate if they want but can we just not?

And as always, this is Just My Opinion.
 
  • #36,196
Thank you. I knew that I read that but i swear that I also read that Nanos said that they turned the camera over to evidence team or something like that. I cannot seem to find that anywhere now so I guess I am crazy.
I think they went to google and google went to the cloud. JMO
 
  • #36,197
I would greatly rejoice if this were true, and Nancy comes home alive and not damaged beyond repair, but IMO criminals do lie, after all.

Whether their most recent letter was a genuine threat or a bargaining chip or a pure invention, I don’t know. But I trust nothing that comes from a letter that could be sent by anyone.

Without proof of life, I do not trust.

JMO
Nor do I trust criminals to take care of a vulnerable, elderly person's needs for 3 weeks.
 
  • #36,198
The odd behavior of the front porch intruder can be explained by assuming that a change had to be made to the kidnapper’s original plan to exit the house by the same path used to enter the house; namely, by the back door. The following paragraphs explain this further.

The first figure shows the first frame of video from the front door camera that shows the intruder approaching the front porch. Notice that the intruder is stepping onto the front walk from a position to the left, and not from the right or from straight ahead. Therefore, it is unlikely that he came up the front walk steps where the hand rail is located. So, where could he be coming from?
View attachment 647008
The answer can be found by looking at the second figure, which shows an aerial view of the front of the house.
View attachment 647010
This view shows the intruder’s position with a red rectangle. It is immediately in front of a white circular stepping stone that can be seen in both the door camera video and the aerial view of the house. Now, this position is approached most easily by a clear path to the corner of the house as shown by the red dots in the aerial view. It is unlikely that the intruder entered this bath from any point short of the corner of the house because he would have had to climb over a two-foot high pile of rocks to reach the path as shown in the third figure – something not impossible, but a hassle that one would have preferred to avoid especially at night.
View attachment 647011
Therefore, it appears that the intruder came to the front door from a point beyond the corner of the house. This point was most likely the point of entry into the house, which we are told by authorities was the door to the back porch. If this is the case, then most likely the intruder came from inside the house before he approached the front door.

Now, let’s assume that that the original plan was to for the kidnapper(s) to exit the house by walking out the back door with their victim walking beside them to their vehicle located somewhere down the street. This would have been their safest option to avoid other cameras. And parking the vehicle on the street would have made it easier for a fast getaway than parking in the driveway, where they could have been blocked in. Unfortunately, while they were inside the house it became apparent to them that it was impossible for Nancy to walk to the vehicle where it was, either because Nancy told them she couldn’t walk that far or because they could see for themselves that she couldn’t walk that far (they could have spotted the walker she used inside the house). Therefore, they were forced to make a change in their exit plan and to bring the vehicle closer to the house so Nancy wouldn’t have to walk as far. The front door was decided to be the best option for doing this.

Therefore, while one of the kidnappers remained with Nancy to ensure that she didn’t call the police, the other kidnapper exited out the back door to get the vehicle. While on his way to get the vehicle, he remembered that there was a front door camera that could see the vehicle approach the front of the house, watch them enter the vehicle, and make their getaway. He knew this camera existed because of his reconnaissance of the house a few weeks earlier, when he was spotted unknowingly by the front door camera. Therefore, he had to either cover up the camera or remove it entirely before bringing the vehicle to the house. So, he went directly from the back porch to the front porch to disable the camera.

One can see on the camera video that he knew the camera existed because he held his head down while approaching the camera from the side. When he was unable to remove camera easily, he decided to temporarily cover it up with something so that it could not see the vehicle, assuming he could find a tool later in the vehicle or in the house that would help him remove the camera while they were exiting through the front door. So, he decided to use some nearby vegetation to disable the camera. While covering it with vegetation appears to most people to be a sign of gross incompetence, it actually served his purpose quite well because the camera was unable to see him later bring the vehicle to the front steps, get out, and approach the camera once more to remove it, either by approaching it from outside the house or from the inside. Then, after the camera was removed, no one could see them take Nancy down the front walk, put her in the vehicle, and then leave in the vehicle. And we know that they exited this way because of the blood on the front porch that wasn’t there when the intruder approached the camera the first time.

So this change of exit plan explains the following:

1) The front door video occurs while leaving the house and not while entering the house.
a. The intruder at the front door was inside the house prior to going to the front door and was likely the driver of the vehicle.
b. This explains the full backpack used by the intruder at the front door. It contains objects taken from inside or outside the house like possibly cameras, and other objects of value, and not just tools for entering the house.
c. It explains why covering the camera with vegetation was an effective action and not a sign of gross incompetence.

2) The intruder on the video at the front door likely had an accomplice.
a. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while the intruder was at the front door.
b. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while someone else disabled cameras and flood lights before exiting the house, which could have caused sounds that Nancy might have heard. (Nancy was hard of hearing and used hearing aids, but the kidnappers likely did not know this ahead of time).
c. The intruder appears to not have full use of his right hand, right elbow, and right leg, making it difficult for him to climb to the roof to remove cameras.
d. If the intruder did not have an accomplice, then he had to ensure that Nancy could not call the police while he was absent by tying her up with tape or cord. But it still would have been risky to leave her alone.

3) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how Nancy entered her house prior to her kidnapping.

4) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how the kidnappers entered the house.
a. Either Nancy left the back door unlocked, or
b. Someone else had left the back door unlocked, or
c. The kidnappers picked the lock on the back door. (There was no forced entry).
d. The kidnappers could have entered the house via a sliding door to the bedroom. In this case they would have still planned to exit via the back door because exiting via the sliding door would have required the victim to climb over a low brick wall. The rear porch did not have a sliding door.

5) The camera removed by the FBI from the roof of the guest house would have seen all entry and exit movements by any intruders via the back door. This camera was overlooked by the kidnappers because it was not on the roof of the main house. At this time only the FBI knows how much of this video data was stored within this camera, stored onsite in the house, or transmitted to the cloud. Perhaps some data was stored. Perhaps none was stored.
Great post and welcome Old Jim (love your name by the way). You seem to hit on a good point in the way the perp approach the front door. He does seem to come from the side.
 
  • #36,199
Also, adding on to your “much more possible” scenario, a Google Maps search of her address shows no street lights, a secluded neighborhood with nearly 1 acre parcels each, and homes that are set back from the main road with full grown cactus/trees for more privacy.
A doorbell cam at the neighbors would definitely not see a car driving by unless it entered their driveway.
Also, being so close to the border gives an advantage for evidence or body disposal.

A lot of advantages to her residence for committing a crime.
What crime was committed, though? Not burglary. Kidnapping...Assault....WHY???????? JMO
 
  • #36,200
“We also have some things at that scene that indicate to us that she was removed from that scene against her will. I can’t go into all those details” to protect the integrity of the case, Nanos said Monday.

What evidence would that be? Maybe her blood trail? I am not ruling out those two lines down the left side of her driveway either.

 

Guardians Monthly Goal

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
239
Guests online
4,286
Total visitors
4,525

Forum statistics

Threads
643,360
Messages
18,797,838
Members
245,129
Latest member
AlwaysLies
Top