• #36,341
I agree, that's exactly my take. His words have been scrutinised too literally imo...which is not wise, given the way he speaks off the cuff.

But he mentioned that there are details that he can't release that indicate that she was removed from the scene against her will. I just located that article today and posted it.
Speaking off the cuff is one thing but stating there are details that indicate something at the scene that he can't release because of the integrity of the investigation is another. IMO.
 
  • #36,342
Hundreds of investigators working for how much longer? Would they have done it for anyone else? How many hours/days are dedicated to other kidnapped or missing folks, heck even murdered folks? While I certainly hope NG is found alive, it is also frustrating that she is getting all this attention from LE and FBI only because she is the mother of a TV celebrity.
I think if testing on the Range Rover and LD's house comes up empty, we'll start to see things dialed back. I said long ago they should've upped the reward to an amount that gives friends/family of the kidnappers something to think about, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Sadly, this may end up as one of those cases where Nancy's remains are accidentally discovered years from now, but no one will ever be held accountable.
 
  • #36,343
But he mentioned that there are details that he can't release that indicate that she was removed from the scene against her will. I just located that article today and posted it.
Speaking off the cuff is one thing but stating there are details that indicate something at the scene that he can't release because of the integrity of the investigation is another. IMO.

You can state your opinion on "taken against her will" as much as you like...which you've done, a LOT... but at the end of the day it's semantics and doesn't add anything to the investigation.

It goes without saying that Ms Guthrie was taken against her will. The scene (blood) on doorstep is likely replicated inside + likely sign of some kind of struggle...which, imo, is why sheriff used the words he did.
 
  • #36,344
  • #36,345
Part 2 from conversation (JMO, etc.):

Who drops the glove out the window??

Apparently …


The glove potentially being tossed two miles away by someone who tried to be very careful at the scene is not outlandish, even though many of us thought it was a weird focus. Frequently criminals in home invasions will be very focused on not getting caught at the scene or leaving things at the scene. They are very focused on getting away safely initially, but in a remarkably short distance (200-300 meters), it is common for the mindset to rapidly shift–and this is happening in the context of extreme emotions after the period of trying to be so careful and steady. Suddenly, there is elation from getting away with it, but it is mingled with the objects that provided safety before (mask, gloves, etc.) now seeming to be THE things that COULD get them caught if they are recorded on a street camera, seen by other drivers, pulled over by police, etc. So there is this zone outside of the closest buffer zone from the crime scene, but still (to our observing, non-reactive-state minds) way too close to the scene of the crime, where it is common for perpetrators to discard objects related to the crime.

With a single pair of gloves from a perp, it’s sometimes possible to retrieve finger or handprints, or DNA.

And a perpetrator double-gloving to avoid DNA at the scene is likely to sweat more, so that if the inner pair of gloves is a form that transfers sweat, there is a rich transfer of shed skin cells carried by sweat through the inner gloves into the interior of the outer ones. And if the person is doing something like doubling up on nitrile gloves, there is often sweat pooling and transferring skin cells from the inner pair to the outer pair at the exit point of the wrist of the two sets of gloves.

A few links from the rabbit hole this led me down around related stuff:



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379073825002257 (If someone wants to read this in its entirety but can’t access it, I may be able to share the PDF in a message)



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274697121_Geographic_Profiling_Using_home_to_crime_distances_and_crime_features_to_predict_offender_home_location#:~:text=Abstract,Decay phenomena (Levine, 2004)?



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/389999476_From_crime_scenes_to_digital_spaces_A_mundane_object's_journey_through_forensics



https://medwinpublishers.com/IJFSC/development-of-latent-fingerprints-on-different-types-of-gloves-by-using-physical-and-chemical-methods.p
Thank you so much for sharing the link and your family member’s insight. I am learning a lot and how it can be applied to this case. I hope you all get well soon and that LE is getting closer to bringing NG home and getting answers and justice for her family and community.

Searching Mothers of Sonora join effort to find Nancy Guthrie

I also just saw a report on the NBC Nightly News about these ladies. Evidently they have a good track record of finding lost people in Mexico. I like this! Let's go, mamacitas!
These women and volunteers are so brave and heroic. As heartbreaking as their stories are, their efforts to recover the missing, including their own loved ones and NG, is so inspirational and IMO, exemplifies the strength of the human spirit that never gives up when there is either hope or the call for justice and answers endures.

JMO
 
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  • #36,346
  • #36,347
I think if testing on the Range Rover and LD's house comes up empty, we'll start to see things dialed back. I said long ago they should've upped the reward to an amount that gives friends/family of the kidnappers something to think about, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Sadly, this may end up as one of those cases where Nancy's remains are accidentally discovered years from now, but no one will ever be held accountable.
Very depressing-- but it appears as likely a scenario to happen as any other at this point.
 
  • #36,348
Part 2 from conversation (JMO, etc.):

Who drops the glove out the window??

Apparently …


The glove potentially being tossed two miles away by someone who tried to be very careful at the scene is not outlandish, even though many of us thought it was a weird focus. Frequently criminals in home invasions will be very focused on not getting caught at the scene or leaving things at the scene. They are very focused on getting away safely initially, but in a remarkably short distance (200-300 meters), it is common for the mindset to rapidly shift–and this is happening in the context of extreme emotions after the period of trying to be so careful and steady. Suddenly, there is elation from getting away with it, but it is mingled with the objects that provided safety before (mask, gloves, etc.) now seeming to be THE things that COULD get them caught if they are recorded on a street camera, seen by other drivers, pulled over by police, etc. So there is this zone outside of the closest buffer zone from the crime scene, but still (to our observing, non-reactive-state minds) way too close to the scene of the crime, where it is common for perpetrators to discard objects related to the crime.

With a single pair of gloves from a perp, it’s sometimes possible to retrieve finger or handprints, or DNA.

And a perpetrator double-gloving to avoid DNA at the scene is likely to sweat more, so that if the inner pair of gloves is a form that transfers sweat, there is a rich transfer of shed skin cells carried by sweat through the inner gloves into the interior of the outer ones. And if the person is doing something like doubling up on nitrile gloves, there is often sweat pooling and transferring skin cells from the inner pair to the outer pair at the exit point of the wrist of the two sets of gloves.

A few links from the rabbit hole this led me down around related stuff:



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379073825002257 (If someone wants to read this in its entirety but can’t access it, I may be able to share the PDF in a message)



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274697121_Geographic_Profiling_Using_home_to_crime_distances_and_crime_features_to_predict_offender_home_location#:~:text=Abstract,Decay phenomena (Levine, 2004)?



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/389999476_From_crime_scenes_to_digital_spaces_A_mundane_object's_journey_through_forensics



https://medwinpublishers.com/IJFSC/development-of-latent-fingerprints-on-different-types-of-gloves-by-using-physical-and-chemical-methods.p
Thanks for this! 🌟🙏
 
  • #36,349
You can state your opinion on "taken against her will" as much as you like...which you've done, a LOT... but at the end of the day it's semantics and doesn't add anything to the investigation.

It goes without saying that Ms Guthrie was taken against her will. The scene (blood) on doorstep is likely replicated inside + likely sign of some kind of struggle...which, imo, is why sheriff used the words he did.

Then she couldn't have been murdered elsewhere. Meaning she was at home when she was attacked and went missing. Thank you.
 
  • #36,350
Until the DNA comes in , if it even matches anyone, the case is cold. IMO. Remote matches may occur. Then build a tree..so that's awhile. BK's father had done DNA testing, likely Ancestry but anyway, when they got BK's DNA it made an instant parent / child match. That would be great in this case but more likely there's a cousin of a varying degree in the data base. Gedmatch depends on being tested on another DNA platform then you uploading your results to Gedmatch so their base is smaller. That, at least, has an opt in for LE. With Ancestry.com, LE has to subpoena them first to avail themselves of their vast subscribership.

Ok..really odd question. LE has said perp is male between 5'9 and 5 '10. Are they saying male because that's the only outlier DNA they have? Many, both here and in the media have remarked the perp has female features. Pretty eyes.. I myself thought the bridge of the nose looked female....slender. Thin eyebrows. Mustache could just be fake.. I know that would kill my stalker theory but, REALLY? How do they know the perp isnt a tall female? Just because they have male DNA of anunknown person doesnt mean it's THIS unknown person! JMO
While BK's father may have been in a database from a commercial DNA testing company, it's been reported it was a Q-tip in the family trash that made the connection to BK from the IGG family tree that was created.



From PBS.org
The pile of garbage yielded investigative gold: A Q-tip that contained DNA identified "as coming from the father of the person whose DNA was found on the knife sheath that was found by Madison Mogen's body on the bed," he said.

JMO
 
  • #36,351
But he mentioned that there are details that he can't release that indicate that she was removed from the scene against her will. I just located that article today and posted it.
Speaking off the cuff is one thing but stating there are details that indicate something at the scene that he can't release because of the integrity of the investigation is another. IMO.
IMO he doesn't choose the best phrases or words. He said snatched from her bed, (or whatever) figuratively and reporters spun it to be literal. I've also heard quotes stating, against her will and more. He needs to stick to one description and not use figurative language at this time.
 
  • #36,352
This is such a great video and makes so much sense. I think she was kidnapped for ransom, subcombed to her injuries so no proof of life and their plan was now foiled. Now where did they put her is the question. Sad to.say i think she is no longer with us. Thank you for posting this

This is also ‘my theory’. She passed and they couldn’t give proof of life. Otherwise they would have done it to obtain the money.
 
  • #36,353
  • #36,354
  • #36,355
Interesting. I will be following this and keeping abreast of further developments.
Are the random red spots on rocks or near the gloves blood? How can you see blood on black gloves?
 
  • #36,356
We've gone over quite a bit.

The houses are laid back, fronted by tall vegetation/obstacles for privacy, and the streets are stunningly dark due to the low-light ordinance. Neighbors cams don't extend out to pick up cars (which would be an IR washed out blur at that distance, IR only goes so far, you can see how much detail is lacking in the washed out footage of Latanas guy w/o the backpack, and that was what 12 -15 ft away. Even if you get extra IR emitter spot lights it still washed out in the distance which is why I keep bright spot lights on cause night cams are a great disadvantage and work in short distance). Several neighbors interviewed said they didn't have cameras at all (mostly elderly) and those that did said in interviews that they would not pick up any cars in the obscured views of the street, and cars never motion detect for them.

I have dozens of cameras on my property, which is laid back like NG with privacy landscaping, including 4K POE and 4K wifi cams 100 feet down my driveway and I couldn't pick up a car on any of them, and I have commercial style spot lights. In the dark, forget it, 35 feet away in the night relying on residential IR cams you wouldn't make out a make or model...and if they drove up with their headlights on at the cams like a delivery driver, the footage would just be a bright glare (best way to obscure IR night cams, shine a bright light directly at them,) Pointing a powerful IR emitter light at any night cam will also blind it, and neighbors would not see any light.

NG's area was a blind spot, even the main street DOT cams at intersections nearby did not record, according to police (and Tucson does not have police or flock cams on the roads).
An article was posted upstream today about le checking cameras from neighbors. Moo
 
  • #36,357
I think if testing on the Range Rover and LD's house comes up empty, we'll start to see things dialed back. I said long ago they should've upped the reward to an amount that gives friends/family of the kidnappers something to think about, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Sadly, this may end up as one of those cases where Nancy's remains are accidentally discovered years from now, but no one will ever be held accountable.
Is he still being investigated? I thought he had a solid alibi?
 
  • #36,358
The odd behavior of the front porch intruder can be explained by assuming that a change had to be made to the kidnapper’s original plan to exit the house by the same path used to enter the house; namely, by the back door. The following paragraphs explain this further.

The first figure shows the first frame of video from the front door camera that shows the intruder approaching the front porch. Notice that the intruder is stepping onto the front walk from a position to the left, and not from the right or from straight ahead. Therefore, it is unlikely that he came up the front walk steps where the hand rail is located. So, where could he be coming from?
View attachment 647008
The answer can be found by looking at the second figure, which shows an aerial view of the front of the house.
View attachment 647010
This view shows the intruder’s position with a red rectangle. It is immediately in front of a white circular stepping stone that can be seen in both the door camera video and the aerial view of the house. Now, this position is approached most easily by a clear path to the corner of the house as shown by the red dots in the aerial view. It is unlikely that the intruder entered this bath from any point short of the corner of the house because he would have had to climb over a two-foot high pile of rocks to reach the path as shown in the third figure – something not impossible, but a hassle that one would have preferred to avoid especially at night.
View attachment 647011
Therefore, it appears that the intruder came to the front door from a point beyond the corner of the house. This point was most likely the point of entry into the house, which we are told by authorities was the door to the back porch. If this is the case, then most likely the intruder came from inside the house before he approached the front door.

Now, let’s assume that that the original plan was to for the kidnapper(s) to exit the house by walking out the back door with their victim walking beside them to their vehicle located somewhere down the street. This would have been their safest option to avoid other cameras. And parking the vehicle on the street would have made it easier for a fast getaway than parking in the driveway, where they could have been blocked in. Unfortunately, while they were inside the house it became apparent to them that it was impossible for Nancy to walk to the vehicle where it was, either because Nancy told them she couldn’t walk that far or because they could see for themselves that she couldn’t walk that far (they could have spotted the walker she used inside the house). Therefore, they were forced to make a change in their exit plan and to bring the vehicle closer to the house so Nancy wouldn’t have to walk as far. The front door was decided to be the best option for doing this.

Therefore, while one of the kidnappers remained with Nancy to ensure that she didn’t call the police, the other kidnapper exited out the back door to get the vehicle. While on his way to get the vehicle, he remembered that there was a front door camera that could see the vehicle approach the front of the house, watch them enter the vehicle, and make their getaway. He knew this camera existed because of his reconnaissance of the house a few weeks earlier, when he was spotted unknowingly by the front door camera. Therefore, he had to either cover up the camera or remove it entirely before bringing the vehicle to the house. So, he went directly from the back porch to the front porch to disable the camera.

One can see on the camera video that he knew the camera existed because he held his head down while approaching the camera from the side. When he was unable to remove camera easily, he decided to temporarily cover it up with something so that it could not see the vehicle, assuming he could find a tool later in the vehicle or in the house that would help him remove the camera while they were exiting through the front door. So, he decided to use some nearby vegetation to disable the camera. While covering it with vegetation appears to most people to be a sign of gross incompetence, it actually served his purpose quite well because the camera was unable to see him later bring the vehicle to the front steps, get out, and approach the camera once more to remove it, either by approaching it from outside the house or from the inside. Then, after the camera was removed, no one could see them take Nancy down the front walk, put her in the vehicle, and then leave in the vehicle. And we know that they exited this way because of the blood on the front porch that wasn’t there when the intruder approached the camera the first time.

So this change of exit plan explains the following:

1) The front door video occurs while leaving the house and not while entering the house.
a. The intruder at the front door was inside the house prior to going to the front door and was likely the driver of the vehicle.
b. This explains the full backpack used by the intruder at the front door. It contains objects taken from inside or outside the house like possibly cameras, and other objects of value, and not just tools for entering the house.
c. It explains why covering the camera with vegetation was an effective action and not a sign of gross incompetence.

2) The intruder on the video at the front door likely had an accomplice.
a. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while the intruder was at the front door.
b. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while someone else disabled cameras and flood lights before exiting the house, which could have caused sounds that Nancy might have heard. (Nancy was hard of hearing and used hearing aids, but the kidnappers likely did not know this ahead of time).
c. The intruder appears to not have full use of his right hand, right elbow, and right leg, making it difficult for him to climb to the roof to remove cameras.
d. If the intruder did not have an accomplice, then he had to ensure that Nancy could not call the police while he was absent by tying her up with tape or cord. But it still would have been risky to leave her alone.

3) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how Nancy entered her house prior to her kidnapping.

4) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how the kidnappers entered the house.
a. Either Nancy left the back door unlocked, or
b. Someone else had left the back door unlocked, or
c. The kidnappers picked the lock on the back door. (There was no forced entry).
d. The kidnappers could have entered the house via a sliding door to the bedroom. In this case they would have still planned to exit via the back door because exiting via the sliding door would have required the victim to climb over a low brick wall. The rear porch did not have a sliding door.

5) The camera removed by the FBI from the roof of the guest house would have seen all entry and exit movements by any intruders via the back door. This camera was overlooked by the kidnappers because it was not on the roof of the main house. At this time only the FBI knows how much of this video data was stored within this camera, stored onsite in the house, or transmitted to the cloud. Perhaps some data was stored. Perhaps none was stored.
I like your theory.

What was the motive, in your opinion?
 
  • #36,359
Is he still being investigated? I thought he had a solid alibi?
It was as of Wednesday which is a long time. Brian Entin brought it up in his interview.
 
  • #36,360
Possible charges are kidnapping and murder. And it is not necessary to list, or discuss, every lesser and included crime (that aren't going to be used in a murder trial) so early in the case since we don't know what the evidence shows or what could happen at trial, if there ever is one.
The charging codes of the state define the crimes and list the elements of each crime, the dictionary definitions are not relevant. Arizona has the felony murder statue, when the suspect entered that property/house, be it forced entry or not, whatever crime he intended on committing is not relevant, he did commit a qualifying felony and if the victim is deceased, it is murder, no matter how she died or where she died.
  • Definition: Under Arizona Revised Statutes 13-1105, a person commits first-degree murder if, acting alone or with others, they commit or attempt to commit specific felonies (e.g., robbery, burglary, kidnapping, sexual assault) and, in the course of that offense, another person dies.
  • No Intent Required: The prosecution does not need to prove the defendant intended to kill the victim, only that they intended to commit the underlying felony.
MOO
The murder charge is enough to encourage a robber to take an unresponsive person.
 

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