NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

[JenniferTx]

The problem is when people only use their "feelings" to determine guilt or innocence and refuse to look at the facts in the case. They see an interview with MacDonald and he looks like a nice guy to them so that means he must be innocent. Or they read a couple articles and make a determination from that. Snap judgements in one direction or the other, which is very common.

You have to look at the evidence. There is no way to get past the pajama top evidence (which was certainly not withheld from anyone), there is no way to avoid the blood evidence, of which there is a multitude, and it simply does not match what MacDonald said happened.

Watching one interview with Helena Stoeckly is a fraction of the number of interviews she gave and she changes her story a bunch of times.

How realistic is it that 4 drugged out people entered the MacDonald apartment, carrying no weapons, and they somehow found an ice pick, a knife, and a board that matches a slat from underneath one daughter's bed to then attack a family including 2 little girls? Yet no one woke up when they entered and started looking for weapons, not even MacDonald, who said he was asleep on the couch in the living room, which is right near the kitchen and any entrance into the apartment, and he only awoke upon being "attacked/stabbed" while on the couch. JM's blood isn't on the couch...his blood is found in the bathroom at the sink.

His story reminds me of the story told by Darlie Routier, who sits on death row in TX. Strange how all these killers enter homes without any weapons of their own, go hunting for a murder weapon inside the victim's home, leave no fingerprints or DNA, don't steal anything, and then overkill sleeping children and manage to not kill the primary adult who was right there.

Oh now Darlie Routier is guilty without any doubt. She butchered her oldest 2 sons while they were sleeping. The state of Texas will end up carrying out her death sentence in a few years after she has exhausted all of her appeals.

 

[Madeleine74]

Oh now Darlie Routier is guilty without any doubt. She butchered her oldest 2 sons while they were sleeping. The state of Texas will end up carrying out her death sentence in a few years after she has exhausted all of her appeals.

Oh quite a few people have doubt about her case. I'm not one of them, as I did my own reading of the testimony and I looked at each of the exhibits that were available and I am satisfied that her guilt was proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

MacDonald's case is very similar. No one broke in, the scene doesn't match the story told, overkill of 2 sleeping children, the lies, the changing story details MacDonald told, the blood, the pajama top, all items used in the murder were owned by the MacDonald family, which means these "4 intruders" came to the apartment with no weapons on them (although according to MacDonald one woman had a lit candle which she carried around). Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. And, the crime scene doesn't match his story. There's no way to spin that.

 

[ERRN1313]

"Regarding Jeffrey MacDonald's wounds

There has been much speculation regarding the extent of Jeff MacDonald's wounds, given that he survived the attacks, but his family did not. At trial, the government contended that Colette had caused all of the wounds except for one to his lung, which they said was self-inflicted.

The government contended that a surgeon would know how to injure himself "safely", and the seriousness of MacDonald's collapsed lung was minimized at trial. Five of the six doctors consulted at the Army Hearing (Article 32) testified that MacDonald could not have predicted the outcome of what they termed a very "serious" stab wound to the chest, which collapsed the lung by 40%. All agreed that the liver could have been damaged, with death resulting, and that even a doctor would not be able to predict the outcome of such a wound, should he inflict in on himself.

Interestingly, MacDonald's wounds were never photographed, while those his family suffered were rigorously documented. Womack Hospital photographer John McCaffrey waited for a request
to record MacDonald's wounds, but it never came. "Somebody goofed," he said.

However, eye witness accounts and medical records describe injuries to MacDonald that go far beyond those minimized by the prosecution.

For example, the government claimed that MacDonald had only a small bruise to the head. Doctors Paul Manson and Robert McGann both observed and testified to seeing " a large contusion" over his left mid-forehead area, and another one over the right temple, slightly obscured by the hairline.

Friend and fellow officer Ron Harrison, when interviewed by the CID, stated that when he went to the hospital, he not only observed the bruises on the front of MacDonald's head, but lumps at the back of the head, and numerous wounds to the chest, arms and abdomen, and what he believed to be ice pick wounds to the neck.

Dr. Straub, at Womack Hospital, examined Jeffrey MacDonald's abdominal wound. He testified at the Army hearing that he "spread it apart, as I recall, and saw that it had gone through a great deal of the muscle of the abdominal wall."

The government made a point of claiming MacDonald suffered no wounds to the hands or arms. But Dr. Severt Jacobson, also of Womack Hospital, described to the grand jury in 1974 cuts he observed to MacDonald's forearms and hand "from a very sharp object". The government also claimed there were only superficial wounds to the chest, other than the stab wound, and no ice pick wounds. But Dr. Jacobson told of seeing four puncture wounds to the upper chest, and multiple punctures elsewhere (arms, abdomen). The puncture wounds were corroborated by Dr. Robert McGann and officer Ron Harrison.

Dr. Frank E. Gemma, an Army surgeon wrote a report on MacDonald's injuries upon his admission to Womack Hospital. He, too, noted "several small puncture wounds that may have come from an instrument such as
an icepick."

In order to protect their scenario of Colette injuring her husband in self-defense, the government ignored any and all mention of ice pick wounds in the records. It would have been implausible for Colette to have been wielding not only a knife and a club, but an ice pick, as well. The presence of three different types of wounds from three different types of weapons gave credence to MacDonald's account of multiple intruders.

Considering all the statements from medical personnel, hospital records and eye witnesses, MacDonald summarily suffered at least seventeen stab wounds to the hands, arms, and torso, stabbings through the muscle in the bicep and abdomen, a stab wound to the lung requiring a chest tube and two surgeries, and multiple contusions to the head. He required resuscitation at the murder scene. He could not save his family because he was knocked unconscious.

Colette was found with a piece of gouged skin lodged under one of her fingernails. Kimberley, Kristen and their mother were all found with foreign hairs, unmatched to their father, under their nails. There were no scratch or gouge marks found on Jeffrey MacDonald."

http://www.themacdonaldcase.org/Case_Facts.html

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm rewatching some of Fatal vision in which details of evidence are discussed. I forgot so many things. Such as:

- Fibers from MacDonald's pajamas were found under the master bed, right under where the word "PIG" was written on the headboard in blood.

- Fibers from MacDonald's pajamas were found underneath Collette's body, yet when found, MacDonald had placed the punctured pajama top on Collette's chest.

- The way the pajama top was folded on Collette's chest, with the pajama top having 42 puncture holes and no tearing or fraying of any of those holes, proves the top was on Collette's chest as she was stabbed and it was folded in that manner. The 42 holes match the pattern of the 21 ice pick wounds on Collette.

- Further, Collette's blood was scientifically determined by the FBI to be on the pajama top BEFORE those ice pick wounds were made to the top...meaning there were no holes in the top and Collette's blood got on his pajama top and this was before she was stabbed in the chest. This is counter to what he claims in his version of events.

- Jeff claimed he dropped the pajama top from his hands right before entering the master bedroom, and then he said he picked up the pajama top to cover Collette's chest wounds after trying to give her resuscitation. The evidence on that pajama top proves his version could not have happened that way.

- The ice pick (which was one of the murder weapons) was kept on top of the refrigerator. How would the murderers entering a dark apartment know to find a weapon there?

- MacDonald described his attackers including their faces (4 of them). However, no lights were on in the living room at the time of the attack and when the living room lights are turned out any person appearing as MacDonald claimed these 4 did, only appear in sillouette and no facial features can be seen.

- MacDonald claims he was attacked in the living room by 4 people. However he also claims at the exact same time as he is being attacked, he heard his wife screaming for help, asking "why are they doing this to me" and also claims he heard his daughter yelling as well, "Daddy...Daddy...Daddy." So if 4 people were attacking MacDonald in the LR as MacDonald states, why would his wife be screaming down the hall in the master bedroom?

- MacDonald claimed he was beaten in the living room and stabbed in the LR as well. No fibers were found and no splinters from the piece of wood were found. There was no blood found where he claimed he was injured. However, fibers from his pajama top AND wood splinters were found in the master bedroom and possibly in one of the kids' room, but not where MacDonald claimed to be (on the couch).

 

[hollyjokers]

I'm not going to keep going point/counterpoint against the heavily edited, well-funded propaganda put out by themacdonaldcase.ORG, it would never end. Bottom line is he lied, he lied, he lied, and continues to lie. Throw out the SUBSTANTIAL and telling blood evidence, the pajama top and fibers, the broken hairbrush, the weapons & gloves from the home, his minimal wounds, etc., etc., There's NO reason for an innocent man to lie.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm not going to keep going point/counterpoint against the heavily edited, well-funded propaganda put out by themacdonaldcase.ORG, it would never end. Bottom line is he lied, he lied, he lied, and continues to lie. Throw out the SUBSTANTIAL and telling blood evidence, the pajama top and fibers, the broken hairbrush, the weapons & gloves from the home, his minimal wounds, etc., etc., There's NO reason for an innocent man to lie.

I have tried to research some on my own concerning his wounds. This one says that he had no scratches on his body.

This case happened so long ago that I have forgotten a lot of it. I dont know why I was thinking he didnt have any wounds except the one that punctured his lung.

Medical and court records substantiate MacDonald was knocked unconscious. MacDonald was taken to Womack Army Hospital. His injuries outlined below were documented by the doctors there who examined him; Dr. Severt Jacobson, Dr. Merrill Bronstein and Dr.Gemma.

Wounds to MacDonald’s head included discolored, swollen, scraped blunt trauma to the left forehead at the hair line. A smaller bruise on the right forehead. On the left posterior portion of his head, covered by his hair, was a contusion.

There was a large bruise on the left shoulder and left upper arm. A complete, through and through knife wound, that entered one place and exited another, was found on the left bicep muscle along with several puncture wounds. There were cuts on the left hand and fingers, in the web of the index finger and thumb.

4 – 5 puncture wounds were found above the heart area, on the left chest . The right chest wound was 3/4" wide, going into the anterior chest, between the ribs, at the 7th intercostal space that collapsed his lung. A 3" long, jagged laceration down the rectus muscle, in the left upper quadrant of the abdomen intersected another knife laceration, extending outward and down. These 2 different knife wounds formed an inversed "V" with the outer side of the laceration slightly shorter than the inside.

There were several punch marks across the center of the abdomen. Merrill Bronstein, MD, described the abdominal laceration as "gaping" --exposing the fascia of the muscle. The doctor stated this wound should have been sutured, but they were more concerned with the serious chest wound, bubbling blood froth with ever quick breath, indicating a collapsed lung, so the abdominal wound was taped closed.

MacDonald’s injuries did not include any fingernail scratch marks according to CID reports and an interview with Dr. Severt Jacobson.


http://www.karisable.com/mac3.htm

 

[Madeleine74]

For those who would like a summary of the blood evidence, where it was found, and what else was found (fiber evidence, etc.), just watch these 2 short videos from the movie, "Fatal Vision." Ignore all the melodrama and music and just listen and watch where the evidence was found. It's really a perfect summary.

I've already found the spot on the first video below that starts the FBI agent's summation so you don't have to watch any of the stuff that comes before. Start it at 5min and 30 seconds in. The evidence presentation continues into Video #2 for about 4 min. Total time to watch and get a full recap of the forensic and physical evidence found at the scene = 9 min.

First Watch this video from 5:30min elapsed time to the end of the video

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMlRi8PAAUU&feature=relmfu"]Fatal Vision TV-movie 1984. The Thirteenth 10 Minutes - YouTube[/ame]



Then watch this for about 4 min


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCrvCdzIdnI&feature=relmfu"]Fatal Vision TV-movie 1984. The Fourteenth 10 Minutes - YouTube[/ame]

 

[hollyjokers]

Bill Lumberg will get to the bottom of this!

"Hellllo Jeffrey, whaaat's happenin'? Ummm yeah, we're gonna need to talk about your, uh, pu-jahma top. It's just we're trying to figure out how the fibers got under/around your butchered wife and kids, so if you could uhhhh, try and explain that, that would be grrrrreat. Mmm-Kay? Thaaaaanks.

Oh! Oh! And I almost forgot! We're gonna need you to tell us how the ripped-off poc-ket of your puh-jahma top got blood spatter on it too. That would, uhhh, really help a bunch. Terrrrr-ific."

 

[Boodles]

I have not rehashed all the evidence, but I read all the books (excepting the newly released one) and tons of documents back during the period before, during and after the last trial. There is so much evidence supporting his conviction. I have no doubts.

But what clinched it for me was the evidence derived from the infamous pajama top which Madelaine has described, the pattern and alignment of the punctures in it, and the blood evidence found on it, the location of its fibers, etc. It contradicts his entire "story."

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Just listening to the snippets on the news and online articles, it sure seems there is a lot of HERESAY in this hearing. I mean, Britt's wife said he said that Helena said....and Stoeckley's brother said his mother said that Helena said.

Where was all this back then when these people would have testified in first person (before they died)?

I'm not a lawyer, but aren't these very belated and multiple-people-removed statements inadmissible? I am curious about whatever DNA arguments the defense may present, but so far these other statements don't seem reliable to me. This seems like grasping for straws. And further torturing the victims' family and loved ones.

I understand what you mean Boodles. I just read this article and wondered the same thing.

http://www.wwaytv3.com/2012/09/18/witness-brother-testifies-macdonald-hearing

 

[ERRN1313]

This hearing is being heard near where I live. If the judge grants a re-trial, I will try to go watch a few days and report back to y'all, lol!I haven't followed this case closely as I was a kid when it happened. But remember my mom thought he was guilty.

Here's the latest from yesterday....

http://www.wwaytv3.com/2012/09/17/macdonald-returns-to-court-fatal-vision-case

Wade Smith, a defense attorney for MacDonald during the 1979 trial, testified Monday. Smith told the court that in January 2005 federal marshal Jimmy Britt told him he heard Helena Stoeckley say she was threatened by the prosecutor.

“He heard prosecutors threaten Helena Stoeckley,” says Errol Morris, author of ‘A Wilderness of Error: The Trials of Jeffrey MacDonald.'"This is the crucial defense witness in 1979 threaten by the prosecution.”

Smith says Britt, who died in 2008, told him Stoeckley, a police informant and witness in the case, was in the house the night of the murders. And that the prosecutor told Stoeckley she'd be charged with murder if she repeated that story in court.

The hearing will continue Tuesday morning. It could last a few weeks and the judge will ultimately have to decide if it is worth re-examining the case.


wm

BBM. If he is granted a new trial, I may just have to take vacation and drive down myself for it. I would like to hear everything first hand and not decide innocence or guilt from a made for tv miniseries and a couple of books. Fatal Vision was definitely written to prove guilt and Fatal Justice makes you take a second look. Innocent or guilty, he deserved a fair trial. Some things make me go "hmmmmm?" Still a fence sitter.

 

[Madeleine74]

Fatal Vision was definitely written to prove guilt and Fatal Justice makes you take a second look. Innocent or guilty, he deserved a fair trial. Some things make me go "hmmmmm?" Still a fence sitter.

Actually the author of "Fatal Vision," Joe McGinnis, was given full access to all documents and proceeding transcripts and everything. He sat through the trial every day. He wrote a long opinion piece a few years after the book was published that he had personally come to like MacDonald very much but could not ignore the evidence presented in court during the trial, which showed it was MacDonald who killed his family. He went through many sleepless nights trying to reconcile the man he knew in person to the killer he finally realized he was, despite how likeable MacDonald was.

McGinnis said he didn't start out with any slant and he agreed to write a book detailing events and evidence as he saw it. It was MacDonald who asked McGinnis to write a book about him, his life, the crimes. McGinnis was only going to write an 800 word article, which he did, then agreed to do a book.

All books are intended to sell. Why else would a publishing house agree to spend money to publish it? MacDonald negotiated a rare financial deal for himself -- he would get 20% of the first $150K profits made on the book, then 33% of the rest of the profits on the book, plus 40% of the profits from any movie or video rights. He willingly gave McGinnis full rights to tell the story with no say in the conclusion. He signed two documents giving these rights and had his attorney (Bernie Segel) sign as his witness.

MacDonald wasn't happy with the book because the conclusion of the author was that MacDonald was the killer, but he made out financially very well on the sale of the book and movie rights. More books sold = more $$$ in MacDonald's pocket.

 

[robinparten]

"Forget the fact that he lied about which child wet the bed...."

That's a big one

 

[ERRN1313]

Actually the author of "Fatal Vision," Joe McGinnis, was given full access to all documents and proceeding transcripts and everything. He sat through the trial every day. He wrote a long opinion piece a few years after the book was published that he had personally come to like MacDonald very much but could not ignore the evidence presented in court during the trial, which showed it was MacDonald who killed his family. He went through many sleepless nights trying to reconcile the man he knew in person to the killer he finally realized he was, despite how likeable MacDonald was.

McGinnis said he didn't start out with any slant and he agreed to write a book detailing events and evidence as he saw it. It was MacDonald who asked McGinnis to write a book about him, his life, the crimes. McGinnis was only going to write an 800 word article, which he did, then agreed to do a book.

All books are intended to sell. Why else would a publishing house agree to spend money to publish it? MacDonald negotiated a rare financial deal for himself -- he would get 20% of the first $150K profits made on the book, then 33% of the rest of the profits on the book, plus 40% of the profits from any movie or video rights. He willingly gave McGinnis full rights to tell the story with no say in the conclusion. He signed two documents giving these rights and had his attorney (Bernie Segel) sign as his witness.

MacDonald wasn't happy with the book because the conclusion of the author was that MacDonald was the killer, but he made out financially very well on the sale of the book and movie rights. More books sold = more $$$ in MacDonald's pocket.

I agree with you and I know all of that. MacDonald "thought" he was going to write about his innocence, and that's why he ended up suing him and got over $325,000 as a settlement from McGinnis. My only issue is that 2 books were written, now a 3rd, looking at the same set of evidence and documents, yet come to different conclusions. I thought he was guilty as sin from the get go, but reading some of the additional documents that were never shown before, I can't help but have some doubts. I can't personally say at this point he is guilty or innocent, and I do see alot that says he's guilty too, as I origionally believed, but I would like some additional information I guess to be 100% certain one way or the other. And in general, I am usually the first one to say "guilty, string 'em up" in most cases. Even in the Petit case, I suspected the husband originally for the same reasons, he was the only survivor, until all the facts came out.

The MacDonald case has haunted me from the beginning, for a number of reasons. Another thing I will add here that has nothing to do with your post and a little OT, is that even though he is referred to as "the Green Beret Doctor", he was not a Green Beret, he never went through Special Forces training. He was assigned to the SF unit as a medical doctor. (Another one of my pet peeves - LOL).

 

[ERRN1313]

Sarah Palin's review of Morris's book:

McGinniss also wrote “The Rogue: the Search for the Real Sarah Palin” after moving in next door to the Palins in Wasilla, Alaska, in May 2010.
Neither the Palins nor the Wasilla townspeople were too thrilled about the new resident or the work he produced. And Palin makes that clear in her review of the Morris book.
She endorses Morris’s description of her “old neighbor” as “a craven and sloppy journalist who confabulated, lied, and betrayed while ostensibly telling a story about a man who confabulated, lied, and betrayed.”
She went on to say:
“MacDonald signed a contract giving McGinniss exclusive rights to his life story, and so McGinniss was given unprecedented access to the defense team – living with them, working with them, eating with them. But when the guilty verdict came down, McGinniss did a one-eighty on them. Apparently, falsely convicted men don’t make for good books. McGinniss decided it was a better story to agree with the jury. MacDonald wasn’t a sympathetic figure. He did himself no favors with some media appearances. So, McGinniss went about writing a book that would convince people the government got the right verdict and we could all pat ourselves on the back and leave Jeffrey MacDonald to rot in his jail cell till Judgment Day.
“McGinniss’ book actually embellished the prosecution’s case – even supplying a motive. According to McGinniss’ theory of the case, MacDonald secretly wanted to break free of his wife and kids and so he murdered them one night in a fit of rage induced by some diet pills he was taking. (Oddly enough, the millions of other people who were also taking those same diet pills somehow avoided murdering their families.)”

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/09/18/4270631/sarah-palin-weighs-in-on-jeffrey.html#storylink=cpy

 

[ERRN1313]

This website has a lot of documents, scanned images, CID investigation information etc. I am not linking it in regards to guilt vs innocence, just for the information it contains.

WARNING: There are pictures of the crime scene including graphic pictures of the victims and the autopsy photos. Some of you may choose not to look at these. Unfortunately it is a real eye opener as to what was done to these innocent victims either by someone who should have loved them or total strangers.

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/photopages.html

 

[hollyjokers]

How is what McGinness did any different than Truman Capote did when he wrote In Cold Blood? Other than give MacDonald a pretty hefty share of the profits.

Sarah Palin....nuff said. It doesn't even make sense that he would have to change his story to be more sensational than an innocent man being imprisoned for killing his family But hey, give the guy a new trial, let him out on bond so he can stay with the Palin clan.

 

[hollyjokers]

I will say the pictures are a little misleading: his photos were not taken until August 1974. Of course, his wounds look like nothing compared to the others.

 

[Madeleine74]

MacDonald "thought" he was going to write about his innocence, and that's why he ended up suing him and got over $325,000 as a settlement from McGinnis.

On the stand MacDonald's testimony was that he realized he had no control over what McGinniss would write and had no basis for an assumption that McGinnis would write him as being innocent. In fact, upon being presented with the releases he signed (2 of them), he conceded he assumed what would be written, but McGinnis never said or promised what 'spin' the book would take and never said he would "write him as innocent." McGinniss's testimony was that he made no promises and couldn't know which way the book would go because at the time of the agreement the trial had not happened yet and he didn't have the info he eventually got.

The jury could not decide and the case was eventually settled out of court. The $$$ MacDonald got was in-line with what he would have gotten anyway from the royalties.

 

[wonders]

This website has a lot of documents, scanned images, CID investigation information etc. I am not linking it in regards to guilt vs innocence, just for the information it contains.

WARNING: There are pictures of the crime scene including graphic pictures of the victims and the autopsy photos. Some of you may choose not to look at these. Unfortunately it is a real eye opener as to what was done to these innocent victims either by someone who should have loved them or total strangers.

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/photopages.html

Thank you ERRN1313. Horrible, just horrible. IMO, no one would do this kind of overkill murder on a woman and children and leave JM in the minor condition he was. He was a Dr, he knew he would be saved before he could die. Collette fought for her life as did one of the girls (can't remember which one). He's guilty as sin and is exactly where he belongs and should have been given the DP and that should have been carried out years ago.
I say go ahead and give this monster another trial, use the hearsay and the jury will wonder why this wasn't brought up years ago when all those people were still alive. Further more with today's technolgy they can do an animated video to show exactly what he did to them and prove it didn't happen the way he said it did. The result will be the same GUILTY. Do you know if he was also charged with the unborn childs death?