Found Safe NC - Shaylie Madden, 7-week-old infant, Biltmore Park in Asheville, 9 May 2019 *Arrest*

[LadyL]

yeah making sure the baby is safe from mom right now is more important than mom's mental wellness

 

[angelainwi]

If she's bonded out and placed in a facility in the ideal situation you're talking about, is she there voluntarily? If so, she could leave on her own. She's already demonstrated that she's a danger to others, right? If she's at a point in her possible mental illness where she thinks that there's nothing wrong with her, and she's there voluntarily, what's going to keep her from leaving?

If she is bonded out of jail she is free to go anywhere unless they put restrictions on her. Ideally, they would transfer her directly from jail. There are acute level facilities that are locked but they are fewer and fewer. I am pretty sure that UNC is a locked unit.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

I am unsure if I can find one meeting those exact parameters, but I can try to link cases that would be comparable. I need to remember if I have any active subscriptions.

Here's some help: Susan Smith.

 

[angelainwi]

Here's some help: Susan Smith.

I am unaware that she was diagnosed with PPP.

 

[?mysterian?]

If she is bonded out of jail she is free to go anywhere unless they put restrictions on her. Ideally, they would transfer her directly from jail. There are acute level facilities that are locked but they are fewer and fewer. I am pretty sure that UNC is a locked unit.

Ok, so ideally she would voluntarily go for evaluation/treatment. If she doesn't, but bonds out, is the next step then involuntary commitment? The best possible outcome is evaluation and treatment, right? And jails aren't the ideal treatment facilities for the mentally ill, IMO.

ETA: (for clarity). If she bonds out but then decides she's not going to go for eval/treatment, what's next? Wait for the next court date? Involuntary commitment?

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

I am unaware that she was diagnosed with PPP.

Her defense tried to use that excuse.

 

[katydid23]

Find me ONE other published case of postpartum psychosis, where the mother premeditated the crime and then obstructed justice by blaming others, hiding her location, and hiding her transportation.

Find me ONE other published case of postpartum psychosis, where the mother premeditated the crime and then obstructed justice by blaming others, hiding her location, and hiding her transportation.

Pamela Clark:
https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1748&context=lawreview
One evening, for no apparent reason, Pamela Sue Clarkwrapped her baby in a blanket and abandoned it in the desert. Clark later told her husband that the baby was kidnapped. When the po-lice arrived, Clark explained how someone had grabbed her from behind, knocked her unconscious, and when she awoke, the baby wasgone. However, the police noted that there were no signs of forcedentry or visible injuries to Clark, and she appeared unusually calmand unemotional. Three days later, Clark admitted she abandoned her baby and directed the police to where she left the child, where- upon the child was immediately retrieved.

Clark was charged with attempted murder and her defense was insanity. The psychiatrist who examined her testified "that severepostpartum depression rendered [Clark] legally insane at the time ofthe crime."6 Members of Clark's family, however, testified that her conduct was normal immediately precedingthe crime, and it was only after the alleged crime that they "noticed a change in her per- sonality."6 Based upon this testimony, the jury concluded that theevidence was inadequate to overcome the presumption of Clark's sanity.

The appellate court affirmed the decision, noting that the jurycould reasonably find Clark's evidence to be insufficient to dispel the presumption of sanity.65 Another factor which was important to the jury was the element of time. Although the jury might have believedthat Clark could not control her immediate responses to her childbecause she suffered from postpartum depression, the jury had difficulty believing a mother could drive many miles to a deserted road and abandon her baby, without having time to reflect on the situation and control her actions.

The majority opinion in the United States today is in accordance with these cases, rejecting postpartum depression as a complete defense.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Pamela Clark:
https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1748&context=lawreview
One evening, for no apparent reason, Pamela Sue Clarkwrapped her baby in a blanket and abandoned it in the desert. Clark later told her husband that the baby was kidnapped. When the po-lice arrived, Clark explained how someone had grabbed her from behind, knocked her unconscious, and when she awoke, the baby wasgone. However, the police noted that there were no signs of forcedentry or visible injuries to Clark, and she appeared unusually calmand unemotional. Three days later, Clark admitted she abandoned her baby and directed the police to where she left the child, where- upon the child was immediately retrieved.

Clark was charged with attempted murder and her defense was insanity. The psychiatrist who examined her testified "that severepostpartum depression rendered [Clark] legally insane at the time ofthe crime."6 Members of Clark's family, however, testified that her conduct was normal immediately precedingthe crime, and it was only after the alleged crime that they "noticed a change in her per- sonality."6 Based upon this testimony, the jury concluded that theevidence was inadequate to overcome the presumption of Clark's sanity.

The appellate court affirmed the decision, noting that the jurycould reasonably find Clark's evidence to be insufficient to dispel the presumption of sanity.65 Another factor which was important to the jury was the element of time. Although the jury might have believedthat Clark could not control her immediate responses to her childbecause she suffered from postpartum depression, the jury had difficulty believing a mother could drive many miles to a deserted road and abandon her baby, without having time to reflect on the situation and control her actions.

The majority opinion in the United States today is in accordance with these cases, rejecting postpartum depression as a complete defense.

A jury convicted her of the attempted murder of her infant daughter, Heather Denise Clark.

 

[katydid23]

A jury convicted her of the attempted murder of her infant daughter, Heather Denise Clark.

Right, but that doesn't mean she wasn't diagnosed with PPD.

I am not saying that Krista shouldn't necessarily be found GUILTY. I would have to see the trial first.

But the question was, DOES SHE SUFFER FROM PPD. I think she probably does. JMO

 

[angelainwi]

Ok, so ideally she would voluntarily go for evaluation/treatment. If she doesn't, but bonds out, is the next step then involuntary commitment? The best possible outcome is evaluation and treatment, right? And jails aren't the ideal treatment facilities for the mentally ill, IMO.

ETA: (for clarity). If she bonds out but then decides she's not going to go for eval/treatment, what's next? Wait for the next court date? Involuntary commitment?

If she bonds out and does not enter treatment and is actively psychotic then definitely involuntary commitment

 

[?mysterian?]

@angelainwi Ok. Thanks for answering my questions.

ETA hit wrong response button

 

[LaborDayRN]

We have no idea what his financial situation is. Just because someone looks up the estimated or average income of a surgeon, it doesn't mean that every one of them has a lot of disposable income.

How much does it cost, cash wise, for acute level private facilities? I'd think it would be very pricey.

I agree. We have to remember that this is a young family. Medical school can be financially debilitating and the debts can take a person years to pay off.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I live in America and have extensive experience working in psychiatric hospitals, as well as other treatment settings. I live in a rural, underserved area, and though as I said previously, written policies are similar to what you have posted, things work differently in practice. It is incredibly frustrating, as I’m sure you can imagine. Because I am not interested in becoming verified here, I am going to read here (this case) rather than continuing to comment about specifics from here on out. I am so glad Shaylie is safe, and I hope Krista is too.

I totally understand this situation and lack of services in the area you live/work. It is the same where I live......and yes......it's in the United States. People are suffering and there seems to be no help in site for many of them. It's shameful in my opinion, but that's for a different thread.

 

[angelainwi]

Right, but that doesn't mean she wasn't diagnosed with PPD.

I am not saying that Krista shouldn't necessarily be found GUILTY. I would have to see the trial first.

But the question was, DOES SHE SUFFER FROM PPD. I think she probably does. JMO

Many mothers who have committed infanticide have been diagnosed with PPD/PPP. They have still gone to trial and most have been convicted of a crime. Many have shown elements of premeditation. And still been diagnosed with PPP. Being diagnosed isn't an automatic out of jail card. Usually, it is a mitigating factor in sentencing. This is an area that needs more research. We need to do better at taking care of new mothers and screening for PPD/PPP. I suffered from PPD with my firstborn. Thank God, because of my training I recognized it almost right away. It was frightening as heck. Thank God again, that I did not do something crazy. I felt completely crazy. I did not feel in control of my behaviors. I became violent and did things that required organized thinking. Thankfully, I was not psychotic and had not broken from reality yet. But I was on my way. If left untreated who knows. I cannot imagine if left untreated that the depression turned into psychosis and that when I came back to reality I found out that I killed or tried to kill my baby. No matter how I did it or how seemingly sneaky and manipulative it was. I think that if one is pretty smart that you do not lose all of that faculty while psychotic. I think an actively psychotic mother could put together a somewhat decent plan to cover up hurting their baby. Their brain may be telling them that it is the right thing to do, the altruistic thing. And that they have to cover it up, that the dad cannot find out that she did it because he might try to go and save the baby or who knows what their mind is saying. In this case, I do not even feel like it was really premeditated or that she even really had a decent plan. I think she finally acted on the psychotic thoughts and made up the cover up as she went. Of course I could be completely wrong. But my gut is that she was and may possibly still be suffering a PP episode.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

She turned off the location services on her phone so her mom (likely the first 911 caller, imo) couldn't track where she was throwing the baby off the cliff. She texted her mom telling her she was in the trunk of her call while she was driving her car. She didn't call the police or text 911. She threw the baby into a ravine where it should never have been found. She left the scene of the crime. She drove miles away from the crime scene and hid her car from view by opening up a bamboo gate and driving her car down a private road. She found a rural highway where a resident called the sheriff. She continued with her "kidnappers did it-I'm innocent" obstruction of justice actions for 3 hours instead of telling LE what she had done to her baby.

She knew right from wrong and created lies to try to prevent her own prosecution. Her story doesn't resemble other true postpartum depression/psychosis infanticide stories. Her story closely resembles Susan Smith's and Pamela Clark's lies. Both of these females were found guilty and sentenced to prison.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Evidence on the 911 tape and the covered foot photo of Shaylie show she has some type of health issue and possibly a disability. Throwing a handicapped child off a cliff is evil.

 

[katydid23]

Many mothers who have committed infanticide have been diagnosed with PPD/PPP. They have still gone to trial and most have been convicted of a crime. Many have shown elements of premeditation. And still been diagnosed with PPP. Being diagnosed isn't an automatic out of jail card. Usually, it is a mitigating factor in sentencing. This is an area that needs more research. We need to do better at taking care of new mothers and screening for PPD/PPP. I suffered from PPD with my firstborn. Thank God, because of my training I recognized it almost right away. It was frightening as heck. Thank God again, that I did not do something crazy. I felt completely crazy. I did not feel in control of my behaviors. I became violent and did things that required organized thinking. Thankfully, I was not psychotic and had not broken from reality yet. But I was on my way. If left untreated who knows. I cannot imagine if left untreated that the depression turned into psychosis and that when I came back to reality I found out that I killed or tried to kill my baby. No matter how I did it or how seemingly sneaky and manipulative it was. I think that if one is pretty smart that you do not lose all of that faculty while psychotic. I think an actively psychotic mother could put together a somewhat decent plan to cover up hurting their baby. Their brain may be telling them that it is the right thing to do, the altruistic thing. And that they have to cover it up, that the dad cannot find out that she did it because he might try to go and save the baby or who knows what their mind is saying. In this case, I do not even feel like it was really premeditated or that she even really had a decent plan. I think she finally acted on the psychotic thoughts and made up the cover up as she went. Of course I could be completely wrong. But my gut is that she was and may possibly still be suffering a PP episode.

I totally agree with all of the above. My stubborn arguing here is more about hearing someone say that she absolutely is NOT suffering from PPD.

I totally agree that PPD does not mean that a jury won't find her guilty. I might vote guilty myself. But that doesn't mean she is not suffering from Post Partum.

 

[MsFacetious]

Krista's husband made a comment on her last FB post

Krista Madden

I am very glad to see this. This is HIS baby girl so he must know something we do not, to not immediately condemn her. I do wish he also would have turned off commenting. He probably doesn't have access though. It's certainly not showing the best of humanity by the comments.

Thank you to those here who are being kind and compassionate to the entire family. I think they deserve that.

Retired after I had kids but still try to keep up with research and newer stuff! If you're looking at Axis II or personality disorders, I'd guess that the histrionic type would be the most likely to be attention seekers. That and/or the borderline.

That being said I know nothing whatsoever about Krista's personality, relationships, or interactions with others so these are just names of the more attention-seeking personality disorder types.

However, I'm sure you'd agree that these aren't generally something that just show up one day without warning. There would be signs of issues.

Borderlines do very frequently end up in care taking roles or professions. However, it's just not something that appears one day 7 weeks PP.

For acute level care between $1000-$2800 a day. I have worked with families that I am pretty sure earn way less than any kind of surgeon and they have taken out private healthcare loans, home equity loans, cashed out of 401k's etc. And once the patient is stabilized, they can be transferred to lower acuity facility which will cost less. I have not placed at UNC where she is supposedly going, but I am pretty sure that they do not take insurance, so it would appear that they have the resources. If for some reason they did not have the resources I cannot imagine that they could not do a fundraiser that would raise the money. I think the article would have said they are just waiting to raise money and they will bond her out and get her into private care.

If a fundraiser was started it would just be taken down. The policy is that you cannot fund raise for a criminal defense... and given the vultures and sharks out for blood with Krista? It would be reported and taken down in hours even if it was for medical care.

I have no idea if she is suffering from PPP, or if she is making it up. Even though she seemed to an extent organized in her crime, that does not mean to me that she was not actively psychotic. You would be surprised by the things actively psychotic people can undertake. It is scary. Thankfully many become too disorganized to carry out elaborate plans, however, many can execute their frightening thoughts.

Yes. I've seen this firsthand.
Someone who drinks bleach because it's there and they are thirsty, may still remember to lock their door or turn off their lights. They didn't drink the bleach to hurt themselves, they were just thirsty.
It doesn't always make sense to a rational mind because their mind isn't rational. It's a terrifying thing to witness.

Unfortunately, our jails and prisons are our largest mental health providers in this nation. Hundreds of inmates are actively suicidal every day. They are not brought for outside care unless they actually are successful at harming themselves. Actively psychotic inmates just get put in solitary confinement, they are not sent out either, again, unless they are successful at harming themselves to a degree that requires hospitalization.

Yes. Absolutely this. It's horrific. Elderly psychotic people just walking around mumbling in a group of other inmates. It's sickening and so sad to see.

I am unsure if I can find one meeting those exact parameters, but I can try to link cases that would be comparable. I need to remember if I have any active subscriptions.

I think if one is looking at it as a psychotic break, hallucinations and delusions, then it doesn't have to fit those criteria. It can appear well planned or premeditated. Either way it can be PPD/PPP.

It's kind of like the cases where we think that a disappearance had to have happened a certain way to be successful... then we find out we were wrong and the suspect just lucked out several times. Things are not always what they seem.

So I'm thinking something like this, which is really quite tame compared to the things some people come up with.

1. What if Krista thought that she and Shaylie were in danger so she turned off her location so the bad guys couldn't track them.

2. Then she thought the bad guys were going to catch them so she threw Shaylie somewhere she thought they'd never find her.

3. Then she put distance between her and Shaylie so that the kidnappers wouldn't find her and as a result find her baby.

4. Then she realized that the kidnappers knew her car and maybe could track it so she had to get rid of that too.

5. Then she realized she needed help so she started texting to let people know of the situation.

There was only 3 hours before Shaylie was found. We don't know how Krista was during that time. Hopefully it was recorded so that professionals can evaluate it.

I just don't see why she would toss Shaylie down there to kill her. It's not a certain death. She could have killed her first and then tossed her if that was her goal. It seems much more the action of a panicked/desperate woman than a logical plan.

 

[Gardenista]

Mother accused of trying to kill 7-week-old to be transferred to psychiatric facility

https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2019/05/15/asheville-mom-accused-trying-kill-newborn-nc-ravine-chapel-hill-perinatal-psychiatric-facility/3678897002/

 

[?mysterian?]

Mother accused of trying to kill 7-week-old to be transferred to psychiatric facility

https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2019/05/15/asheville-mom-accused-trying-kill-newborn-nc-ravine-chapel-hill-perinatal-psychiatric-facility/3678897002/

Thanks for posting this article. It states, {snipped by me}

"A consent order will need to be signed by a judge before she is transferred to the facility. Henderson County District Attorney Greg Newman said he has anticipated from the beginning of the case that Madden's legal team would request an evaluation.

Newman said he agreed to her transfer because she will remain in custody under a secured bond."{snipped by me}

-----------

The article also states: {snipped by me}

"Madden will be transported by the Henderson sheriff's office to Chapel Hill. She'll be taken back to county jail once authorities are notified that her evaluation has been completed, the consent order said."{snipped by me}