NC - Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted

[Jeana (DP)]

>I'm happy to know this. He's not going to be the judge on this case by any chance????<


Wouldn't that be something though? What would be the odds?

Sherlockmom

I'd love it. He's got to be a criminal court judge, so its got to be possible.

 

[BhamMama]

Her upbringing matters not.

True, but I was responding to what kind of person, or what would make a person, pick up the phone and dial 911 over racial slurs.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I hope so. Aren't these young men entitled to be judged by a jury of their peers?? Are uneducated, middle-age black women considered their peers??

Peers doesn't mean clones, though. It simply means people from your general location. Who can't avoid jury duty.

 

[mssheila]

True, but I was responding to what kind of person, or what would make a person, pick up the phone and dial 911 over racial slurs.

It would astound you if you knew what people will dial 911 over. Just a few examples from when I was an operator.

1. "I think there's an injured squirrel in my backyard. What should I do?"
2. "I just got to the parking garage and there's a ticket on my windshield.. I want to talk to that cop RIGHT NOW!"
3. "My car was towed of XYZ street during no parking hours- can you help me find it?"

I could go on and on, those are just a few off the top of my head at this early morning hour. Nothing suprises me when it comes to what people will call 911 over.

 

[BhamMama]

It would astound you if you knew what people will dial 911 over. Just a few examples from when I was an operator.

1. "I think there's an injured squirrel in my backyard. What should I do?"
2. "I just got to the parking garage and there's a ticket on my windshield.. I want to talk to that cop RIGHT NOW!"
3. "My car was towed of XYZ street during no parking hours- can you help me find it?"

I could go on and on, those are just a few off the top of my head at this early morning hour. Nothing suprises me when it comes to what people will call 911 over.

My neighbor is one of those people! She called them last week because her horn on her car wouldn't stop going off! I think I've called 911 a total of 2 times in 10 years, one of those to report a bad wreak in my front yard.

There was a story on here somewhere about how some people call because they are lonely and call nearly every day! People just amaze me sometimes.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Let's continue here. The other thread was getting long.

I'm reading this weeks "Newsweek" magazine and there's a pretty large story about this with info we haven't talked about. I'll finish it up and post new info.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

TIMELINE:

11:02 - Guys waiting for the dancers;

11:45 – Alleged victim arrives;

12:00 – Women dancingj;

12:05 – BOTH women lock themselves in the bathroom;

12:20 – BOTH women leave the house and get into the car, accuser said she forgot her purse and goes back to get it;

12:30 – Alleged victim, with purse, is standing on back stoop, smiling;

12:37 – alleged victim laying on back stoop, seems to have fallen, ankle bleeding, elbow scraped;

12:41 – both women leave the party;

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Notes from article that I found interesting:

Seligmann’s timeline:

Between 12:05 and 12:24 he uses his cell phone eight calls.

Taxi driver picks him and another guy up at 12:19, then he’s shown at an ATM machine;

He then goes to a restaurant and then to his dorm, where his card is swiped at 12:46

Says either he committed the alleged crime in two minutes or did so while on the telephone.

 

[Sherlockmom]

There are problems with the 911 call that haven't been discussed much. I had a post written and lost it so I'll try to reconstruct.


In the first 911 phone call the woman first claims to have been driving by then later says she was walking by. The defense also claims they can prove that it is the same woman in the 911 call that was present with the alleged victim at the party.

The second 911 call was made by a security guard at a Krogers which by the way is further away from the party site than the hospital or the police station. The guard stated in an interview that the supposed victim nor the woman driving her never mentioned any rape or assault and the vicitm didn't act like she had just been raped. She also stated that the driver told her that she was driving down the street past the frat house and saw this woman out front and these guys making racial remarks to her. She felt sorry for her and picked her up and drove her to the krogers. She claimed she never met the woman before however there are photographs of them together at the party. Hmmmmmmm...

Since the defense is most likely having voice experts work on the 911 calls if this is the same woman from the party this case is dead in the water.

The first 911 call came about 10 minutes after the alleged rape. Hmmmmm.... If this turns out to be the same woman, as I suspect it is, why would she call 911, report only racial slurs being hurled and then drive to a Kroger's later and give the other story? Remember too that these two women did not arrive at the party together. The alleged victim arrived late dropped off by someone else at this time unknown.

The police arrived at the scene just two minutes after the first 911 phone call yet no one was there. That's fast moving even for a bunch of drunk frat boys.

From an article:

>In her call reporting the racial slur, the unidentified woman offered different versions of the incident. She variously said she had driven by the house, had walked by the house and was sitting in front of the house at the time she was talking to the 911 dispatcher. She initially said one male near the Duke wall hurled the racial epithet, and later said a group of people came out of 610 N. Buchanan yelling at her and her friend. The wall and the house are on opposite sides of a dimly lit street.

"There are a number of discrepancies that point toward a contrived situation -- maybe," said Williams. <

You can read the entire article here:

http://www.gambling911.com/033106Dnews.html

As to the discrepancies and inconsistenaces in the case Nifong had this to say:

""I'm not going to talk about that right now," said Nifong. "I don't see it as an issue that would affect the way I prosecute this case. Right now, I'm just trying to get into a position where we can charge somebody or conclude that no one will be charged."

Apparantly the fact that one of his witnesses has told several lies and can't keep a story straight isn't a concern to him. Right then his main concern was to charge somebody, anybody, as long as it was a white college boy, with rape so that he could get elected. Heck, there wasn't that much time to waste as the election was coming very soon.

Something else we won't hear on the TV news is that threats against members of the team have also been made. All we've heard about is how threats have been made against the woman in this case.

"Police are investigating threats against the Duke University men's lacrosse team in the wake of rape allegations against team members.


Numerous telephone calls and e-mails to the university athletic office in recent days have threatened violence against the team, and authorities are looking into who made the calls and sent the messages to determine whether any criminal charges are warranted."

http://www.nbc17.com/education/8393654/detail.html

Threats of gang violence against Duke students:

http://www.dukechronicle.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=c6f359dc-e5c6-4fb8-a08b-82ae922f533f

Why oh why is this the first I've heard about threats to the team? Nevermind. I already know. Unless you sit on the computer and dig for the truth yourself you are at the mercy of the media spinsmeisters and their attempts to brainwash and manipulate. And you know what? It's WORKING for the most part. Most Americans just don't have time for this stuff.




Sherlockmom

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Hints that the other defendant, Finnerty left the party BEFORE the dancing even began.

Attorney Thomas says that some DNA was found under her fingernails, but it was inconclusive about identity.

Nifong hints that blood and urine tests reveal the presence of a date-rape drug.

Roberts, the other dancer says:

The dance lasted about 10 minutes. That they were supposed to dance for two hours.

That they were in the bathroom together for 20 minutes.

ROBERTS called 911 before they left the party, claiming that they were called racial names. Says she told the players “I called the cops, you dumbasses,” but that she didn’t want everyone to know I’m a dancer.”

Said she had not collected all of the money and though the accuser was hustling her.

Says that days after the incident she contacted attorney Butch Williams, but he told her he was already representing one of the non-accused players. She told him no rape occurred. He wanted her to sign an affidavit, but she refused. Later said she was angry that he told other attorneys what she said to him.

Said she saw no swelling on the other girl’s face.

Regarding her email to the PR firm, said she’s worried that her name and her criminal record would prevent her from getting a job, so “Why shouldn’t I profit from it?” She’s apparently on probation for embezzling $25K from a company she worked for and two days after the incident, was arrested again for probation violation. She’s currently out on bond.

She contacted a lawyer named Mark Simeon, who is taking her case. He said he will be there for her “if and when she decides to pursue legal remedies on her own.”

BUT, get this. He’s putting together a team to represent the alleged victim in ANOTHER CIVIL SUIT.

OTHER TIDBITS:

Nifong’s boss is none other than JIM HARDIN. LOL

NIFONG’S STYLE:

On April 13th, three defense attorneys met with him. When they began talking about exculpatory evidence, Nifong cut them off and said he knew much more abaout the case than they would ever know and that he intended to indict two players.

On April 18th, one of the defense attorneys showed up at his office to talk about the case and after 20 minutes of waiting in the lobby, an assistant came out and told him “Mr. Nifong says that he saw you on TV declaring your client is totally innocent, so what is there to talk about?”

MORE TIDBITS:

There are approximately 12 or more defense attorneys representing team members.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson has said that he will pay the accuser’s college tuition.

The email that was sent by one of the team members was sent 1 hour AFTER the dance happened.

A student from NCCU, the dancer’s school said that he wants to see the Duke students prosecuted “whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past.”

 

[Wudge]

SNIP.

A student from NCCU, the dancer’s school said that he wants to see the Duke students prosecuted “whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past.”

With little doubt, that is likely a reference to happenings that occurred in the Jim Crow/KKK legacy era.

Today, I suspect that many Americans have no idea as to what southern black Americans suffered from purely racist actions by white Americans during that era.

Moreover, I suspect that few people know that in many states (and all southern states), rape was punishable by execution until the early 1960's. And, in southern states most assuredly, those who suffered such punishment were largely black men who had been found guilty at the hands of an all-white jury. Further still, in some southern states, "attempted rape" was also punishable by death.

It should not take a heap of IQ cycles to realize that there were a huge number of black men (many hundreds if not more) who were executed in southern states for a rape they never committted. Further yet, in some southern states, the law demanded that a rape execution be carried out by a public hanging (the electric chair was out for rape) in the county in which the alleged rape occurred. This was seen as a good way to keep the local black population in line.

So, if you wonder why the D.A.'s office would pack the jury with middle-aged to older black women (mothers preferred), it is because the heritage of most every long-rooted, black southern family has at least one person in their family tree who was executed for a crime that family lore says "never happened".

Is there any wonder as to why largely black southern juries almost always find white defendants to be "guilty" in racial tinderbox areas such as Durham, and most of North Carolina, represents.

This payback factor is deep-rooted in the psyche of southern black Americans, and I definitely understand why. For many, many black residents of Durham/North Carolina, the chance to revenge a grievous deed once done to one or more of their ancestry by finding a trio of young white men to be guilty of rape would be a dream come true.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

All good comments Wudge, and from what the article said about Nifong and the prosecutor's office, I think you've been right with regard to your opinions on that topic. I just hope someone who can, puts him down before too much harm has been caused to possibly innocent students.

 

[Wudge]

All good comments Wudge, and from what the article said about Nifong and the prosecutor's office, I think you've been right with regard to your opinions on that topic. I just hope someone who can, puts him down before too much harm has been caused to possibly innocent students.

Back when the trout were small and racial tensions were much different than what America faces today, I grew up in the melting pot that Pittsburgh once represented.

And I have the benefit of having lived in the Raleigh/Durham/Wake Forest area. Additionally, I have lived in Georgia, Texas and Florida as well. So, I speak from personal experience, and those life expreiences caused me to do some research many moons ago, which, unfortunately, is not available for posting.

However, a quick web search just brought up some relevant links that people might find to be both informative and interesting.

http://www.doc.state.nc.us/DOP/deathpenalty/1020.htm

[You can kick on links at the bottom of the above link that will bring up additional data from later years]

http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/dp/faq/rapeexec.html

Moreover, I agree with the last few sentences of this article by Daniel Horowitz.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1048

 

[BhamMama]

Today, I suspect that many Americans have no idea as to what southern black Americans suffered from purely racist actions by white Americans during that era.

Please disregard this post

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Yes, they suffered greatly in every area and racism is still alive and well. These days, they seem to be their own biggest enemies. They're killing each other off in record numbers. The drugs they're selling largely remain in their own communities. There are gun stores and liquor stores on every corner in the poorest neighborhoods. And if this woman lied, the reprucussions of what she did to women of her own race will be felt for years and years to come. She was in the Navy and had to leave because she got pregnant (with a child who was not her husband's). Now, she's in colllege, but is stripping and possibly worse). And, if she lied, her reputation is shot forever. If I were a black woman, this would piss me off way more than someone calling me a name. She had an education in sight and threw it out the window. OF COURSE, I'M SPEAKING IN "IFS". Evidence may still come to light that would change my mind about the guilt of these men.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>This payback factor is deep-rooted in the psyche of southern black Americans, and I definitely understand why. For many, many black residents of Durham/North Carolina, the chance to revenge a grievous deed once done to one or more of their ancestry by finding a trio of young white men to be guilty of rape would be a dream come true.<

Well I don't understand it at all. I have American Indian heritage and I have no overwhelming desire to get revenge for anything done to my ancestors over 150 years ago.

Who would they be getting revenge against? The kid whose ancestors came from peasant backgrounds in Poland who never owned a slave and didn't get here till 1910? Finnerty is of Irish heritage. Do you think his ancestors may have lived here 200 years ago and owned or lynched a black man? Or does the fact that some black men may have been unfairly executed give them the right to just pick any white man off the street and accuse him of a crime? Interesting moral equivalency. With that kind of reasoning I would expect the sons and grandson, great grandsons and great-great-grandsons of these two accused players to be looking for revenge on down the line too.

The people that owned slaves or did them wrong have been dead and gone a long time now. Anyone who is using that as an excuse to get away with breaking the law or falsely accusing someone else of a crime I wonder, have they paid any attention to the quality of life in Africa over the past 200 years?

Sherlockmom

 

[MSM]

Or does the fact that some black men may have been unfairly executed give them the right to just pick any white man off the street and accuse him of a crime? Interesting moral equivalency.

Sherlockmom

Good points, Sherlockmom. I for one am SO sick of the race card being used to justify just about any kind of poor behavior in this country that I could scream. When are we going to put the past where it belongs, IN THE PAST, and move forwards as a society? What reasonable person thinks it's fair to falsely accuse, convict, and/or execute a white person today to avenge wrongs done over 50 years ago, when these kids were not even alive? And how, exactly, is that going to help us all get along? The OJ Simpson trial did enough damage to race relations in this country. Do we really have to go there again?

 

[Sherlockmom]

>So when we discuss the Jim Crow laws and black people in general, this is one time that we all should be painted with that one big brush of generality of guilt.



Why should I be painted with a big brush of guilt? My father is of Polish ancestry. His ancestors were peasants. His family came here in the 1900's and they were virtually slaves in their own native land and I'm sure they never owned slaves here. My mother's ancestors were French Canadian, English and American Indian. They never owned slaves and were fur trappers, hunters and finally opened their own tool & die shop. Why should I be painted with any brush of guilt or owe black people anything?

If this victim attitude is one that someone wants to live with then a victim they will always be. Opportunity abounds and all one has to do is take advantage of it. The Chinese who have come to this country have, the Irish, the Poles, the Italians. All of them came here to escape poverty and oppression. How many of them are looking for revenge? There is no excuse to remain a victim for generation after generation unless one wants to. Yes, there may be racisim occasionally but there is alot of racism against white people too.

No, I don't know what it is like to be black. But then does a black person know what it's like to be white? How about Chinese? Mexican?

If you want to better your life better your life. No one is stopping you or saying that you can't. Black people have never had a higher rate of home ownership or a higher income level ever than they do right now. Apparantly some aren't living in the past playing the victim but have grasped onto the future and taken advantage of the opportunities that have presented themselves. They have college educations, good jobs, nice homes and their children do well in school.

This kind of race baiting and racist statements from some in the black community would not be tolerated if they were being hurled by white people. And it does nothing to foster good racial relations but only fosters more hatred and bitterness.

If someone wants to be treated with respect they must behave in a manner that engenders respect. Respect is earned. It isn't automatically a birthright given to someone just because of their skin color or the past hardships of their ancestors. Each generation must aspire to be better that the previous generation. That is what they expect from us.

Fostering racial discord, lying about crimes, playing the race card whenever it suits you and thinking that you are owed a life and a free pass is not going to get you anywhere but where that type of stinky attitude will lead you.

Sherlockmom

 

[BhamMama]

>So when we discuss the Jim Crow laws and black people in general, this is one time that we all should be painted with that one big brush of generality of guilt.



Why should I be painted with a big brush of guilt? My father is of Polish ancestry. His ancestors were peasants. His family came here in the 1900's and they were virtually slaves in their own native land and I'm sure they never owned slaves here. My mother's ancestors were French Canadian, English and American Indian. They never owned slaves and were fur trappers, hunters and finally opened their own tool & die shop. Why should I be painted with any brush of guilt or owe black people anything?

Whoa, never said you owed nothing. I'm talking in general terms within the boundries of the conversation of Jim Crow laws and States, not people in general. Don't take offense where none was given.

I'm Kiowa and Cherokee American Indian, I am a registered member of both tribes. I certainly don't hold anyone alive today accountable for what happened in the past. We have enough going on in the present. If you noticed I didn't mention names, single out a single area or try to make white people here today accountable for anything, for anyone. I was simply stating that if the blame game was gonna be played for lynchings, Jim Crow and blacks being mistreated, not to lay it all on the south, that it occurred and was sanctioned everywhere!

 

[Wudge]

Whoa, never said you owed nothing. I'm talking in general terms within the boundries of the conversation of Jim Crow laws and States, not people in general. Don't take offense where none was given.

I'm Kiowa and Cherokee American Indian, I am a registered member of both tribes. I certainly don't hold anyone alive today accountable for what happened in the past. We have enough going on in the present. If you noticed I didn't mention names, single out a single area or try to make white people here today accountable for anything, for anyone. I was simply stating that if the blame game was gonna be played for lynchings, Jim Crow and blacks being mistreated, not to lay it all on the south, that it occurred and was sanctioned everywhere!

In the mid 20th century, many acts of the worst kind of fiendish racism against blacks in the south, and elsewhere, were commited by the KKK or with the assistance of our 20th century courts/judges/juries.

The children, cousins, brothers, sisters, grandchildren etc., of many blacks, who were savagely abused, murdered or falsely convicted and executed, remain alive today.

As still waters run deep, horrendous childhood memories only die when death stops the replays.