Nedra & Patsy's sisters

[JMO8778]

Only other thing I would add is,I would like to hear what a criminal psych.(or more than one,really) has to say about whether that type of head injury(considered along w the manual strangling) could be an accident,or rather,was it more likely to be intentional?
It's such a severe injury that I do have a difficult time equating it to an accident.Is it possible that,just like some can't fathom a parent would do this to their own child,that again it's being too nice and/or too naive to consider it to be done on purpose..therefore it must be an accident???It could only be an accident?? I think it's possible that once again,some are being fooled,and by themselves this time.(no flames please ! I did say possibly.)
What I don't understand is,IF it was an accident,why not stage it as an accident?That would be far less incriminating.They could have staged it as falling down the steps or something.But obviously,it seems they knew that wouldn't be believable..why? Only reason I can think of is b/c it was no accident.
And if it was an accident,but she was denied medical help due to the fact she might talk about sexual abuse,then why not stage it as an accident and wait until she's passed away to call LE ?
If murders are ususally what they seem,then it seems,(to me anyway),that this was a murder staged as a murder,not an accident staged as a murder,which is far more incriminating.I think it was an murder in the murderer's mind,and as such,had to be staged that way in his/her mind.JMO.

 

[azwriter]

laini,

Thanks for asking those two questions. I'll answer them both right now.

1. I have several BDI theories, but this doesn't mean he killed JonBenet. It simply means he was somehow INVOLVED in the crime, and that's the basis of the Ramsey coverup. And yes, IMO there was a fifth person in the house that night, and that fifth person could be the killer. The wording in the polygraph questions tip me off that there was definitely a fifth person in the house that night and not even the parents know "for sure" which of the two was the actual killer. By not knowing FOR SURE, John and Patsy were able to pass the polygraph exam without showing deception.

2. The reason given me for not using names or even initials of my suspects on WS is legal in nature. The forum can be sued. Yet, all other posters seem to throw names around with impunity. Therefore, I wonder if there's been some legal intimidation directed at WS because of my posts. And I wonder why me? Have I been getting too close with some of my BDI theories?

BlueCrab

Blue, that noise you hear is me nodding my head yes at your final sentence. For years I've followed your posts and theories and found them very possible. Nice to see you posting here again - with or without legal warnings.
JMO

 

[DeeDee249]

Dru, you make some good points there. JR may have wanted JBR to be seen to be wearing the same panties- remember they were UNDER the long johns- PR was only "seeing" them through the long johns. In PMPT you can see on the "corpse" of JBR the flowers on the panties showing through the thin thermal fabric of the long underwear. The waistband that said "Wednesday" may have also shown at the top and PR would certainly have noticed if it said anything else. But she WOULDN'T have noticed if the size was wrong if she was ONLY seeing them through the long johns. The only way you'd see if the panties were the wrong size is if she saw her without the long johns. That could have happened two ways. If JBR was wearing the size 12s that day TO the White's and PR noticed when she was putting the long underwear on her that night OR if PR was there at the time the bloody size 6s were removed and replaced with the identical (but different size) flower Wednesday panties. Either (or both) could have unwrapped those gifts looking for them. They may have been placed in with other items, and so may not have been apparent as a small package. It may not have been obvious which package they were in.

 

[rashomon]

The whole size 12 underwear thing is one of the reasons I think JR's more involved than PR in this whole mess.

I think whoever killed JBR had to replace the size six pants because of the bleeding from the vaginal wound.

Inflicting such a wound for sexual gratification would be downright sadistic, and I just can't wrap my mind around John Ramseys sadistically abusing his daughter. According to Dr. McCann, the object jabbed into JB's vagina was much firmer that a finger, and while not fatal, still would have been extremely painful if JonBenet was alive and conscious.
I wouldn't rule out John as having been JonBenet's chronic abuser, but doing this to her while she was alive and conscious ... very hard to imagine imo.

I believe the vaginal wound was inflicted for staging purposes (just like the garrote) to make it look as if a sexual sadist had committed the crime, but that the parent who staged it could not go on violating JB with the paintbrush further, and simply stopped after that single wound.

 

[JMO8778]

I'm not sure, but I think Dru is saying that although JB was unconcious after the head wound,he knew she was still alive(?)

 

[Dru]

I'm not sure, but I think Dru is saying that although JB was unconcious after the head wound,he knew she was still alive(?)

Thanks, JMO8778, that is what I meant.

Here's the thing. Either the person who inflicted that vaginal wound on JBR knew, or didn't care, that she was still alive (though unconscious from the massive head wound), and inflicted that wound anyway; or, the person or persons who inflicted that wound actually thought she was dead, and were trying for postmortem staging.

Most people who are PDI believe some version of the second option: that PR thought JBR was dead, that she came up with a pedophile scenario to explain JBR's death, and that either alone or with JR's help she inflicted that wound, some time in the time period (no more than an hour, remember) between the head blow and JBR's death by strangulation. This, of course, opens up some confusion: did PR do all of this alone, and therefore is PR the sole killer, or did JR help with the vaginal wound and strangulation, making him technically the killer, though PR would still be guilty of, at the very least, attempted murder/criminally negligent homicide?

Either way, you have to account for the fact that the vaginal wound was quite literally one of the first things the killer/killers thought of doing. Before the RN was written, before most of the other staging elements were in place, before almost anything else, that wound was inflicted. If its purpose really was "postmortem staging" then why all the hurry? Why not write the RN first, and stage the crime scene so that in every detail it looked like a politically motivated kidnapping gone wrong? Why inflict an injury that is intended to suggest a sex crime, and then carefully clean up and re-dress the tiny victim? Can we really believe that a parent or parents would be able to inflict such a horrific wound--and then not have the stomach to leave their daughter nude and posed in a way that would at least make the wound make sense? IOW, having inflicted the wound, why back away from mere staging? Why even clean up the blood at all, if you intend for this to look like some horrific sex crime?

I think the wound was inflicted to hide abuse. Though I tend to believe the abuser/killer were the same person, and that JR is that person, I do believe it's possible (however unlikely) that PR was the abuser, or that PR knew for a fact that the abuse was happening and was willing to collaborate in its cover-up. Whatever the case, the only way that wound makes sense to me is if it was inflicted to confuse/compromise evidence of past abuse; and that's what made the person who inflicted it in such a hurry to do so, and also made it necessary to clean up the outward signs of the injury and re-dress JBR instead of posing her like the victim of a sex attack.

 

[Ames]

Inflicting such a wound for sexual gratification would be downright sadistic, and I just can't wrap my mind around John Ramseys sadistically abusing his daughter. According to Dr. McCann, the object jabbed into JB's vagina was much firmer that a finger, and while not fatal, still would have been extremely painful if JonBenet was alive and conscious.
I wouldn't rule out John as having been JonBenet's chronic abuser, but doing this to her while she was alive and conscious ... very hard to imagine imo.

I believe the vaginal wound was inflicted for staging purposes (just like the garrote) to make it look as if a sexual sadist had committed the crime, but that the parent who staged it could not go on violating JB with the paintbrush further, and simply stopped after that single wound.

I agree...and I believe that if it had of been an actual sexual sadist....that he would have left the paintbrush inside of her. What was the purpose of taking it out?? Some posters say he (the intruder) took it for a souvenier...I don't buy that...its ridiculous. If it had of been an actual sexual sadist..not only would he have left the paintbrush inserted....he would have never taken the time to put clothes back on her. What was the point in that? The vaginal wound was done only for staging purposes...IMO.

 

[Dru]

I agree...and I believe that if it had of been an actual sexual sadist....that he would have left the paintbrush inside of her. What was the purpose of taking it out?? Some posters say he (the intruder) took it for a souvenier...I don't buy that...its ridiculous. If it had of been an actual sexual sadist..not only would he have left the paintbrush inserted....he would have never taken the time to put clothes back on her. What was the point in that? The vaginal wound was done only for staging purposes...IMO.

Ames, how do you explain the fact that the vaginal wound was done within one hour of the head blow at the longest, and that it was done before the strangulation? Also, how do you explain the failure to go ahead and stage JBR's body as if this were a sex crime, i.e., unclothed, with the blood left on her body? Many people seem to believe that PR and/or JR could kill their daughter and inflict this horrible wound, but then just couldn't bring themselves to leave her unclothed in the basement. I honestly don't buy that.

 

[Ames]

Ames, how do you explain the fact that the vaginal wound was done within one hour of the head blow at the longest, and that it was done before the strangulation? Also, how do you explain the failure to go ahead and stage JBR's body as if this were a sex crime, i.e., unclothed, with the blood left on her body? Many people seem to believe that PR and/or JR could kill their daughter and inflict this horrible wound, but then just couldn't bring themselves to leave her unclothed in the basement. I honestly don't buy that.

I believe that the Ramsey's thought that JB was dead after the head wound. She was unconscious...and her pulse was so faint, that they couldn't detect it...so, in their opinion...she wouldn't have felt the paintbrush insertion. They were not in the medical field....not doctors, or nurses. They were just two average people, that thought that their daughter was dead after that horrendous head wound. After researching a medical website...I learned from it that after a severe headwound, several things happen....three of them being, convulsions, unconsiousness, and bleeding from the ears, nose, or mouth. I am sure that all of these things, along with the fact that the head wound crack that had to have been extremely loud.....made them think that JB was ALREADY dead. They were trying to save their own butts, so inserting a paintbrush inside of the vagina of their dead child, at that time...wasn't a concern for them. Heck, they believed that she was dead....so what would it matter...she couldn't feel it. They had to stay out of jail. I really believe that they were in a panic, and wasn't thinking clearly....I am one of those that believe that they couldn't just leave her naked in the basement....I am sure that their guilty conscious was getting to them, so their last act of "love" was to redress her, and to wrap her "lovingly" in a blanket. That was the parent coming out in them....IMO

 

[Solace]

I agree...and I believe that if it had of been an actual sexual sadist....that he would have left the paintbrush inside of her. What was the purpose of taking it out?? Some posters say he (the intruder) took it for a souvenier...I don't buy that...its ridiculous. If it had of been an actual sexual sadist..not only would he have left the paintbrush inserted....he would have never taken the time to put clothes back on her. What was the point in that? The vaginal wound was done only for staging purposes...IMO.

Exactly Ames, and she was redressed. They are going to take the time to redress her. Remember the FBI agent, Ron Wood, said "look at the parents" it was because of a number of things and more than likely one of which is SHE WAS DRESSED. They wiped her down and they dressed her. One last loving thing that either John or Patsy did (I think John) before they left her for good. Who wants to remember the last thing I did to my daughter was defile her with a paint brush - NO! the last thing I did was lovingly wipe her off and wrap her up - I did not mean for this to happen.

It is so obvious they were involved. When was the last time you ever heard of a child being sexually assaulted and cleaned up and dressed.

 

[Albert18]

If murders are ususally what they seem,then it seems,(to me anyway),that this was a murder staged as a murder,not an accident staged as a murder,which is far more incriminating.I think it was an murder in the murderer's mind,and as such,had to be staged that way in his/her mind.JMO.

This news just hit the local wires:

"An Estelline woman accused of knocking a four-year-old girl out of her chair is now charged with killing her.

Twenty-year-old Savanna Espinoza was originally charged with abusing her boyfriend's daughter. Since the girl died, Espinoza is now charged with alternate counts of second-degree murder and manslaughter.

The girl died from head injuries.

Investigators say Espinoza admits pulling the chair from under the girl."


Instead of being straight forward with investigators, this woman could have staged this as a sex crime with a ransom note.

Remove the sex crime staging and the ransom note and this is probably very similiar to what happened in 1996.

 

[JMO8778]

This news just hit the local wires:

"An Estelline woman accused of knocking a four-year-old girl out of her chair is now charged with killing her.

Twenty-year-old Savanna Espinoza was originally charged with abusing her boyfriend's daughter. Since the girl died, Espinoza is now charged with alternate counts of second-degree murder and manslaughter.

The girl died from head injuries.

Investigators say Espinoza admits pulling the chair from under the girl."


Instead of being straight forward with investigators, this woman could have staged this as a sex crime with a ransom note.

Remove the sex crime staging and the ransom note and this is probably very similiar to what happened in 1996.

excellent analogy!! I think so, too.

 

[Albert18]

I think this real life story...

"An Estelline woman accused of knocking a four-year-old girl out of her chair is now charged with killing her.

Twenty-year-old Savanna Espinoza was originally charged with abusing her boyfriend's daughter. Since the girl died, Espinoza is now charged with alternate counts of second-degree murder and manslaughter.

The girl died from head injuries.

Investigators say Espinoza admits pulling the chair from under the girl."

answers these questions.

Why didn't Patsy/somebody just call 911?
Why stage an accident as a murder?

"The girl died from head injuries."

"Espinoza is now charged with alternate counts of second-degree murder and manslaughter."

I doubt this woman meant to hurt and certainly not to kill this little girl.

 

[Dru]

I think this real life story...

"An Estelline woman accused of knocking a four-year-old girl out of her chair is now charged with killing her.

Twenty-year-old Savanna Espinoza was originally charged with abusing her boyfriend's daughter. Since the girl died, Espinoza is now charged with alternate counts of second-degree murder and manslaughter.

The girl died from head injuries.

Investigators say Espinoza admits pulling the chair from under the girl."

answers these questions.

Why didn't Patsy/somebody just call 911?
Why stage an accident as a murder?

"The girl died from head injuries."

"Espinoza is now charged with alternate counts of second-degree murder and manslaughter."

I doubt this woman meant to hurt and certainly not to kill this little girl.

So, Albert18, you think that PR looked down at the apparently lifeless form of her daughter and thought, "Hmmm. I don't want to go to jail for this. Let's see...what can I use to stab her in the vaginal area and make this look like a sex crime?"

I'm sorry if that's too graphic, but please consider the situation. We have to believe that PR, and JR too if he was helping her, decided to defile their daughter to make her death look like a sex crime, then changed their minds, "lovingly" cleaned her up (and then dumped her "lovingly" in the freezing dark wine cellar?) and wrote a ransom note that changed the whole scenario to a politically motivated crime of hatred against JR; a kidnapping, moreover, complete with a demand for money and a lot of lame references to action movies. Which, considering that they'd have to know that LE would find the 'sex wound,' makes absolutely no sense at all.

With the R's money and lawyers, even a second-degree murder/manslaughter charge would probably have been plea-bargained away to something rather minimal, all things considered, if JBR's death really had been some kind of accident, even one motivated by rage.

Remember, somebody strangled her in cold blood (not in a moment of rage), somebody inflicted that sexual wound, somebody didn't want to risk taking her to the hospital after the head blow, even if the head blow itself had been unintentional.

Somebody wanted her to die.

 

[JMO8778]

Why bother wiping away any blood if the staging is intended to suggest a sexually motivated predator assaulted JonBenet?


.

In thinking about it,I think they had 2 plans that night.The first was driven by sheer panic and their knee-jerk reaction was to stage a sex crime and get her body out of the house.For whatever reason,that was abandoned,and Plan B was put into motion.
For that, she had to be wiped down,redressed and covered,in order to hide the staged sexual assault,(so JR wouldn't get the blame for that)giving them time to get out of town as fast as they could b/f that injury was noticed and investigated.Thus the reason for calling 911 so late...they wanted that plane and pilot to be ready to go when LE found JB's body.Yes,I know he did call the pilot and cancel,but he had no choice but to do it at that point.But even so,JR knew the longer he waited that morning to call 911, and then the pilot, to cancel the flight,the more ready that plane would still be to go.
(also recall how they had their passports and mememtos retrieved !!!)

UK,if you don't think JB's hidden sexual injury was clean up from a previous plan to get her out of the house,then may I ask why do you think it was hidden?I apologise if you've posted that bf,I just don't recall.thx.

 

[Solace]

So, Albert18, you think that PR looked down at the apparently lifeless form of her daughter and thought, "Hmmm. I don't want to go to jail for this. Let's see...what can I use to stab her in the vaginal area and make this look like a sex crime?"

I'm sorry if that's too graphic, but please consider the situation. We have to believe that PR, and JR too if he was helping her, decided to defile their daughter to make her death look like a sex crime, then changed their minds, "lovingly" cleaned her up (and then dumped her "lovingly" in the freezing dark wine cellar?) and wrote a ransom note that changed the whole scenario to a politically motivated crime of hatred against JR; a kidnapping, moreover, complete with a demand for money and a lot of lame references to action movies. Which, considering that they'd have to know that LE would find the 'sex wound,' makes absolutely no sense at all.

With the R's money and lawyers, even a second-degree murder/manslaughter charge would probably have been plea-bargained away to something rather minimal, all things considered, if JBR's death really had been some kind of accident, even one motivated by rage.

Remember, somebody strangled her in cold blood (not in a moment of rage), somebody inflicted that sexual wound, somebody didn't want to risk taking her to the hospital after the head blow, even if the head blow itself had been unintentional.

Somebody wanted her to die.

Your argument is good - it is. But it is also possible that she appeared dead to them and that they could tell that her head was almost in half, all they had to do was feel it. And whoever inflicted it, HEARD it. So they may have believed she is dead and the resulting staging which included a strangling by garrotte came later and was intended to throw the police off.

And I do not think it is as simple as "lets see what can I find to stab her in the vaginal area'. I think that Patsy was out of her mind and John right along with her. I think we can see that she is not thinking straight by the 3 page note and the handwriting of that note is extremely shakey. So whoever is writing it is terrified - so terrified that they left bruises on JonBenet's brain by shaking her - trying to wake her - what else?

 

[coloradokares]

I dont thnk it was premeditated !

 

[JMO8778]

I dont thnk it was premeditated !

I don't either,but I do question if it was truly an accident.I can't imagine throwing my child around and not thinking it could,and likely would, inflict lasting damage,esp.if she was thrown on or stuck about the head.

 

[Solace]

I don't either,but I do question if it was truly an accident.I can't imagine throwing my child around and not thinking it could,and likely would, inflict lasting damage,esp.if she was thrown on or stuck about the head.

I agree JMO. I think Patsy was so angry that she did not care to think about what she was doing. She had to know that she was inflicting incredible harm on her, but she did not realize she was splitting her skull in half. Maybe, and this is awful I know, but maybe she thought and this is extremely fast going through her mind, she is infuriating me and she is going to do what I tell her and she just grabs her and manhandles her and it all happens in less than 30 seconds. It can happen that way. But she still had to know what she was doing was wrong. She had to. JonBenet is 45 pounds - there is no way you can do that and not know you will hurt her. She did not care at that moment.

 

[Dru]

I dont thnk it was premeditated !

Neither do I; that is, I don't think someone planned this particular crime--the crime itself shows the disorganization and lack of forethought.

However, I do think that once someone had 'snapped' he or she decided to make sure that JBR was dead.

If the person who struck the head blow really believed that JBR was dead, why were either the vaginal wound or the garrote really necessary? Couldn't a murder have been staged by simply placing some blunt instrument (flashlight, golf club, fireplace poker etc.) near the child's body and leaving the RN? In fact, such a scenario would have better matched the RN: a helpless child struggling to escape her kidnappers is killed by them when they attempt to silence her; panicked, they leave, and leave her body behind.

The sexual wound and garrote are unnecessary complications; moreover, they will undoubtedly have the effect of focusing the attention more on the parents, rather than less. And no matter how rattled they were, I believe that JR at the very least would have known that!